Re: coc ban

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Re: coc ban

kevin zhang
So let me just clarify, so despite a few weeks ago the decision was
effectively "we highly encourage but won't require", now it's if you do not
include the coc then we will ban you from phabricator?

Just want to make sure I understand the current stance...

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 8:01 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

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>    3. Re: My Phabricator account has been disabled (Mukunda Modell)
>    4. Re: My Phabricator account has been disabled (Alex Monk)
>    5. Re: My Phabricator account has been disabled (MZMcBride)
>    6. SEMANTiCS 2018, Vienna, Sep 10-13, Contribute to the
>       Vocarnival & the DBpedia Day (Sebastian Hellmann)
>    7. Re: My Phabricator account has been disabled (Amir Ladsgroup)
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 19:28:16 -0400
> From: MZMcBride <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia developers <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] My Phabricator account has been disabled
> Message-ID: <D78FA2D0.F1708%[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi.
>
> My Phabricator account has been disabled. I don't seem to have any e-mail
> about this action, so I'm mostly just curious who did it and why. If
> there's a log entry somewhere, that would be nice, but I don't know how
> transparent Phabricator or its admins are. I suppose it would also be nice
> to know if the person ever plans on undoing this unexplained disablement.
>
> I have over 56,000 unread e-mails in my "Phabricator" folder, so if I've
> overlooked an explanatory e-mail, please let me know!
>
> In the meantime, I guess I'll just, uhh, log out to view Phabricator.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 19:17:14 -0500
> From: Mukunda Modell <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia developers <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] My Phabricator account has been disabled
> Message-ID:
>         <
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I think you were a victim of a false-positive with the anti-vandalism tech
> that's been recently deployed in phabricator.
> Unfortunately there isn't a log entry to verify that fact because the
> logging function hasn't been deployed yet.
>
> Regardless, I've re-enabled your account.
>
> I apologize for the inconvenience, I'll make some adjustments to the filter
> to hopefully prevent more false positives.
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 6:28 PM MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > My Phabricator account has been disabled. I don't seem to have any e-mail
> > about this action, so I'm mostly just curious who did it and why. If
> > there's a log entry somewhere, that would be nice, but I don't know how
> > transparent Phabricator or its admins are. I suppose it would also be
> nice
> > to know if the person ever plans on undoing this unexplained disablement.
> >
> > I have over 56,000 unread e-mails in my "Phabricator" folder, so if I've
> > overlooked an explanatory e-mail, please let me know!
> >
> > In the meantime, I guess I'll just, uhh, log out to view Phabricator.
> >
> > MZMcBride
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 01:39:23 +0100
> From: Alex Monk <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia developers <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] My Phabricator account has been disabled
> Message-ID:
>         <CALMPGzWPHEHRCk9KJBtdJ-JeDw5POBotxk8=zdBJOSa=
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> If there isn't any logging of this stuff how do we know it's your anti
> vandalism bot and not a rogue admin?
>
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 01:17 Mukunda Modell, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I think you were a victim of a false-positive with the anti-vandalism
> tech
> > that's been recently deployed in phabricator.
> > Unfortunately there isn't a log entry to verify that fact because the
> > logging function hasn't been deployed yet.
> >
> > Regardless, I've re-enabled your account.
> >
> > I apologize for the inconvenience, I'll make some adjustments to the
> filter
> > to hopefully prevent more false positives.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 6:28 PM MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi.
> > >
> > > My Phabricator account has been disabled. I don't seem to have any
> e-mail
> > > about this action, so I'm mostly just curious who did it and why. If
> > > there's a log entry somewhere, that would be nice, but I don't know how
> > > transparent Phabricator or its admins are. I suppose it would also be
> > nice
> > > to know if the person ever plans on undoing this unexplained
> disablement.
> > >
> > > I have over 56,000 unread e-mails in my "Phabricator" folder, so if
> I've
> > > overlooked an explanatory e-mail, please let me know!
> > >
> > > In the meantime, I guess I'll just, uhh, log out to view Phabricator.
> > >
> > > MZMcBride
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 20:56:14 -0400
> From: MZMcBride <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia developers <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] My Phabricator account has been disabled
> Message-ID: <D78FB7B3.F170E%[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="UTF-8"
>
> Mukunda Modell wrote:
> >I think you were a victim of a false-positive with the anti-vandalism tech
> >that's been recently deployed in phabricator.
> >Unfortunately there isn't a log entry to verify that fact because the
> >logging function hasn't been deployed yet.
> >
> >Regardless, I've re-enabled your account.
> >
> >I apologize for the inconvenience, I'll make some adjustments to the
> >filter to hopefully prevent more false positives.
>
> Ah, okay. Thank you for the quick reply and remedy! I appreciate it.
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 11:16:59 +0200
> From: Sebastian Hellmann <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] SEMANTiCS 2018, Vienna, Sep 10-13, Contribute to
>         the Vocarnival & the DBpedia Day
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> *# Vocarnival*
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> The Vocabulary Carnival (Vocarnival) at SEMANTiCS 2018 is a unique
> opportunity for vocabulary publishers to showcase and share their work,
> meet the growing community of vocabulary publishers and users, and build
> useful semantic, technical and social links. The Vocarnival forms part
> of the SEMANTiCS programme with the Carnival Minute Madness and the
> marketplace.
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> *Which are the expected vocabulary types? *
>
> All types! A very wide vocabulary definition applies to this
> competition, including ontologies, classifications, thesauri, concept
> and metadata schemes, independently of their format, be it RDF or not.
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> *When is the submission deadline?*
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> The submission deadline is set for September 3, 2018, 23:30 CET time.
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> Get familiar with the technical requirements and the presentation format
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> get honored by a special prize if you have one of the best three
> posters. The winners will be announced during the respective Vocarnival
> Session at SEMANTiCS 2018. Please find all information here:
> _https://2018.semantics.cc/vocabulary-carnival_
>
>
> *How to submit your Vocabulary to the Carnival? *
>
> *Step 1:*Make sure your vocabulary is accessible on the Web via a public
> URI.
>
> *Step 2:*Submit your vocabulary here:
> _https://2018.semantics.cc/submit-vocabulary-vocarnival_
>
> *Step 3:*Register to SEMANTiCS 2018: _https://2018.semantics.cc/prices_
>
> *Step 4:*Every poster will be presented in our exhibition area. The
> organising committee will select the best vocabulary poster and
> presentation for the awards.
>
>
> *# DBpedia Day - Call for Participation*
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> At the beginning of SEMANTiCS 2018, the DBpedia Community will get
> together on the**10th of September for the DBpedia Day. Besides the
> following highlights, we want you to be a part of the day by telling us
> what cool things you do with DBpedia. Submit your proposal in our form:
> _https://goo.gl/forms/ngRWCjgH9ocDCrEb2_!
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> *Highlights*
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> - Keynote #1: Dealing with Open Domain Data by Mathieu d’Aquin (NUI Galway)
>
> - Keynote #2: Linked Open Data cloud - act now before it’s too late by
> Javier Fernández García (WU Wien)
>
> - DBpedia Association hour
>
> - DBpedia Chapter Session
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> *Important Facts*
>
> - Web URL: _http://wiki.dbpedia.org/meetings/Vienna2018_
>
> - When: September 10th, 2018
>
> - Where: Gußhaus Campus of Vienna's Technical University, Gußhausstraße
> 27-29, 1040 Vienna, Austria
>
> - Call for Contribution: Submit your proposal in our form
> _https://goo.gl/forms/ngRWCjgH9ocDCrEb2_
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> - Attending the DBpedia Community Meeting costs €50 (excl. registration
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> <mailto:[hidden email]>for a promotion code.
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> /We are looking forward to your contributions and to seeing you at the
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:08:03 +0200
> From: Amir Ladsgroup <[hidden email]>
> To: Wikimedia developers <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] My Phabricator account has been disabled
> Message-ID:
>         <CA+ttme0ez9Pkj9WZ_6VC4oED9vpNvWyQP-XZQcphP=
> [hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I disabled the account and now I disabled it again. It's part of a CoC ban.
> We sent the user an email using the "Email to user" functionality from
> mediawiki.org the moment I enforced the ban.
>
> We rather not to discuss details of cases publicly but I feel this
> clarification is very much needed.
>
> Best
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 2:56 AM MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Mukunda Modell wrote:
> > >I think you were a victim of a false-positive with the anti-vandalism
> tech
> > >that's been recently deployed in phabricator.
> > >Unfortunately there isn't a log entry to verify that fact because the
> > >logging function hasn't been deployed yet.
> > >
> > >Regardless, I've re-enabled your account.
> > >
> > >I apologize for the inconvenience, I'll make some adjustments to the
> > >filter to hopefully prevent more false positives.
> >
> > Ah, okay. Thank you for the quick reply and remedy! I appreciate it.
> >
> > MZMcBride
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Wikitech-l Digest, Vol 181, Issue 11
> *******************************************
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Re: coc ban

Saint Johann
That was about the other thing, putting Code of Conduct file into every
MediaWiki extension. Wikimedia Phabricator is by design a MediaWiki
development space, so it’s under code of conduct by all definitions.

(Although I must comment that banning a person for a ‘WTF’ type of
comment is really unwarranted, especially when said to Wikimedia
employees as opposed to volunteers.)

Oleg

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Re: coc ban

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by kevin zhang
No, this was for saying "WTF".

On 8 August 2018 at 15:16, kevin zhang <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So let me just clarify, so despite a few weeks ago the decision was
> effectively "we highly encourage but won't require", now it's if you do not
> include the coc then we will ban you from phabricator?
>
> Just want to make sure I understand the current stance...
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Re: coc ban

Andre Klapper-2
In reply to this post by kevin zhang
On Wed, 2018-08-08 at 09:16 -0400, kevin zhang wrote:
> So let me just clarify, so despite a few weeks ago the decision was
> effectively "we highly encourage but won't require", now it's if you
> do not include the coc then we will ban you from phabricator?

You need to quote whatever specific lines you refer to, to allow others
to get the context. Quoting 407 [potentially unrelated] lines does not
help others to understand what "include the coc" means.

Thanks,
andre
--
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/



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Re: coc ban

Fæ
In reply to this post by Michel Vuijlsteke-2
Saying "WTF" is by default acceptable for all projects unless the WMF
board agrees a resolution and enforces it on its own board members, as
well as volunteers and WMF employees. If anyone is blocked or banned
under the Technical CoC for using similar language which has been
published by WMF board members, this should be grounds for a
successful appeal unless and until the same standards are seen to be
applied to WMF board members along with the same block and ban
actions.

Just in case readers here missed the precedent set in 2016, Wales has
never retracted nor apologised for writing on the English Wikipedia
that a statement by Heilman was "utter fucking bullshit". Both parties
were Wikimedia Foundation board members at the time, and are board
members now.[1][2]

Links
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=701673700&oldid=701673178
2. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8gvg/wikipedias-secret-google-competitor-search-engine-is-tearing-it-apart

Fae

On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:45, Michel Vuijlsteke <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> No, this was for saying "WTF".
>
> On 8 August 2018 at 15:16, kevin zhang <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > So let me just clarify, so despite a few weeks ago the decision was
> > effectively "we highly encourage but won't require", now it's if you do not
> > include the coc then we will ban you from phabricator?
> >
> > Just want to make sure I understand the current stance...
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: coc ban

Andre Klapper-2
On Wed, 2018-08-08 at 15:22 +0100, Fæ wrote:
> Wales has never retracted nor apologised for writing on the English
> Wikipedia that a statement by Heilman was "utter fucking bullshit".

English Wikipedia is not a venue covered by the CoC for Wikimedia
technical spaces. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct

andre
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/



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Re: coc ban

Fæ
So what? This is Wikimedia Board Members that are setting a precedent
for acceptable language on our projects. Jimmy Wales himself gets
lauded with virtual high fives for telling a fellow board member they
are talking "fucking bullshit", and Jimmy Wales remains the only
memorable press/public face for the Wikimedia Foundation.

Blocking volunteers because they use "Jimmy Wales" language and
attempting to defend those blocks on wiki-lawyerish grounds, is
nonsense and does not convince anyone that the CoC is being applied
fairly, rather than with dirty great hobnail boots.

Considering the "offence" is not outing or some sort of ghastly
harassment, insisting that it cannot be discussed in public, or
appealed using a public and transparent procedure, goes against the
core values of our movement. Please, go <Jimmy Wales vulgarity> with
these fantastic non-rationales.

Fae

On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 15:27, Andre Klapper <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 2018-08-08 at 15:22 +0100, Fæ wrote:
> > Wales has never retracted nor apologised for writing on the English
> > Wikipedia that a statement by Heilman was "utter fucking bullshit".
>
> English Wikipedia is not a venue covered by the CoC for Wikimedia
> technical spaces. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct
>
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: coc ban

Saint Johann
In reply to this post by kevin zhang
I’m sorry, but no, even the evidence that Jimmy Wales is a worst human
being on the entire planet Earth wouldn’t make some kinds of language
(like the one you are quoting from) acceptable in a collaborative
environment. Of course, he should apologise, but CoCC doesn’t have any
authority about that, so it’s not reasonable to discuss it in such context.

Please do not derail the conversation about this particular incident by
going on a tangent about unrelated issues or ‘snowflakes’. The problem
here is the repercussions too harsh for the language that is being
quoted, not some general idea that MediaWiki development spaces should
have some kind of rules.

Oleg


On 08/08/2018 17:44, [hidden email] wrote:

> Saying "WTF" is by default acceptable for all projects unless the WMF
> board agrees a resolution and enforces it on its own board members, as
> well as volunteers and WMF employees. If anyone is blocked or banned
> under the Technical CoC for using similar language which has been
> published by WMF board members, this should be grounds for a
> successful appeal unless and until the same standards are seen to be
> applied to WMF board members along with the same block and ban
> actions.
>
> Just in case readers here missed the precedent set in 2016, Wales has
> never retracted nor apologised for writing on the English Wikipedia
> that a statement by Heilman was "utter fucking bullshit". Both parties
> were Wikimedia Foundation board members at the time, and are board
> members now.[1][2]
>
> Links
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=701673700&oldid=701673178
> 2. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8q8gvg/wikipedias-secret-google-competitor-search-engine-is-tearing-it-apart
>
> Fae

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Re: coc ban

Arlo Breault
In reply to this post by Saint Johann


> On Aug 8, 2018, at 9:42 AM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> especially when said to Wikimedia employees as opposed to volunteers.)

Can you elaborate on that?


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Re: coc ban

Saint Johann
Sure.

Wikimedia Foundation employees inherently have more privilege and weight
in MediaWiki developer community than the volunteers do, especially less
participating ones. Power dynamics of the discussion between a volunteer
and an employee (and, sometimes even more generally on Phabricator) are
structured in a way in that more than frequently an end decision will be
taken not by volunteers or all Wikimedia community, but by employees or
people that are more well-versed in MediaWiki development spaces (who
also can happen to be employees).

Code of conduct is important to be enforced, but, in my opinion, there
should be a difference in how it’s enforced. To volunteers that help the
movement, there should be no unacceptable language, as it is a way (and
a purpose of something like code of conduct) to make MediaWiki
development spaces more welcoming to future volunteers.

However, employees, while in their capacity, should be (in reasonable
amounts) less guarded against non-constructive criticism, because at
many times all you can provide to someone’s work decisions could only be
non-constructive because you know that no minds and hearts will be
changed by any amount of constructive criticism. I am, of course, not
talking about any kinds of serious stuff (Jimmy Wales language), but
more about ‘WTF language’.

Oleg

On 08/08/2018 19:20, Arlo Breault wrote:
>
>> On Aug 8, 2018, at 9:42 AM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> especially when said to Wikimedia employees as opposed to volunteers.)
> Can you elaborate on that?
>


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Re: coc ban

Brion Vibber-4
Oleg -- I interpret that suggestion as "employees of WMF and WMDE have to
accept all ongoing abuse they are given without complaint"; that may not be
what you intended but that's how I read it, and I'd like to unequivocally
*reject that notion*.

WMF and WMDE employees are people performing a job, and deserve a safe work
environment. When it's suggested that long-term abusive behavior against
employees be tolerated because it's not a big deal or it's just volunteers
letting off steam, I have to counter that it *is* a big deal. It promotes
burn-out and harms people both personally and professionally.

Please don't be part of that cycle of abuse and burn-out, all. It's not
cool, it's not productive, it's not funny, and it doesn't help you get what
you wanted done.

-- brion

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:43 AM Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sure.
>
> Wikimedia Foundation employees inherently have more privilege and weight
> in MediaWiki developer community than the volunteers do, especially less
> participating ones. Power dynamics of the discussion between a volunteer
> and an employee (and, sometimes even more generally on Phabricator) are
> structured in a way in that more than frequently an end decision will be
> taken not by volunteers or all Wikimedia community, but by employees or
> people that are more well-versed in MediaWiki development spaces (who
> also can happen to be employees).
>
> Code of conduct is important to be enforced, but, in my opinion, there
> should be a difference in how it’s enforced. To volunteers that help the
> movement, there should be no unacceptable language, as it is a way (and
> a purpose of something like code of conduct) to make MediaWiki
> development spaces more welcoming to future volunteers.
>
> However, employees, while in their capacity, should be (in reasonable
> amounts) less guarded against non-constructive criticism, because at
> many times all you can provide to someone’s work decisions could only be
> non-constructive because you know that no minds and hearts will be
> changed by any amount of constructive criticism. I am, of course, not
> talking about any kinds of serious stuff (Jimmy Wales language), but
> more about ‘WTF language’.
>
> Oleg
>
> On 08/08/2018 19:20, Arlo Breault wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 8, 2018, at 9:42 AM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> especially when said to Wikimedia employees as opposed to volunteers.)
> > Can you elaborate on that?
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: coc ban

Arlo Breault
In reply to this post by Saint Johann


> On Aug 8, 2018, at 1:43 PM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Code of conduct is important to be enforced, but, in my opinion, there should be a difference in how it’s enforced. To volunteers that help the movement, there should be no unacceptable language, as it is a way (and a purpose of something like code of conduct) to make MediaWiki development spaces more welcoming to future volunteers.

Is it not possible that one volunteer's language discourages
other volunteers from participating, regardless of who it's
directed at?


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Re: coc ban

Michel Vuijlsteke-2
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber-4
On 8 August 2018 at 19:54, Brion Vibber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oleg -- I interpret that suggestion as "employees of WMF and WMDE have to
> accept all ongoing abuse they are given without complaint"; that may not be
> what you intended but that's how I read it, and I'd like to unequivocally
> *reject that notion*.


That's really strange. I read it as "employees, while in their capacity,
should be (in reasonable amounts) less guarded against non-constructive
criticism [...] I am, of course, not talking about any kinds of serious
stuff (Jimmy Wales language), but more about ‘WTF language’."

Michel
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Re: coc ban

Isarra Yos
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber-4
Yeah, even if it seems like volunteers are treated as second class
citizens, advocating mistreatment of staff too isn't going to resolve
anything. We should all just try to do our best, and all realise that
these are /peolpe/ we're dealing with. It's not always going to be
perfect, it's not always going to be professional... and this goes both
ways. We shouldn't expect needlessly high standards of behaviour or
putting up with things from anyone, on any side.

-I

On 08/08/18 17:54, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Oleg -- I interpret that suggestion as "employees of WMF and WMDE have to
> accept all ongoing abuse they are given without complaint"; that may not be
> what you intended but that's how I read it, and I'd like to unequivocally
> *reject that notion*.
>
> WMF and WMDE employees are people performing a job, and deserve a safe work
> environment. When it's suggested that long-term abusive behavior against
> employees be tolerated because it's not a big deal or it's just volunteers
> letting off steam, I have to counter that it *is* a big deal. It promotes
> burn-out and harms people both personally and professionally.
>
> Please don't be part of that cycle of abuse and burn-out, all. It's not
> cool, it's not productive, it's not funny, and it doesn't help you get what
> you wanted done.
>
> -- brion
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:43 AM Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sure.
>>
>> Wikimedia Foundation employees inherently have more privilege and weight
>> in MediaWiki developer community than the volunteers do, especially less
>> participating ones. Power dynamics of the discussion between a volunteer
>> and an employee (and, sometimes even more generally on Phabricator) are
>> structured in a way in that more than frequently an end decision will be
>> taken not by volunteers or all Wikimedia community, but by employees or
>> people that are more well-versed in MediaWiki development spaces (who
>> also can happen to be employees).
>>
>> Code of conduct is important to be enforced, but, in my opinion, there
>> should be a difference in how it’s enforced. To volunteers that help the
>> movement, there should be no unacceptable language, as it is a way (and
>> a purpose of something like code of conduct) to make MediaWiki
>> development spaces more welcoming to future volunteers.
>>
>> However, employees, while in their capacity, should be (in reasonable
>> amounts) less guarded against non-constructive criticism, because at
>> many times all you can provide to someone’s work decisions could only be
>> non-constructive because you know that no minds and hearts will be
>> changed by any amount of constructive criticism. I am, of course, not
>> talking about any kinds of serious stuff (Jimmy Wales language), but
>> more about ‘WTF language’.
>>
>> Oleg
>>
>> On 08/08/2018 19:20, Arlo Breault wrote:
>>>> On Aug 8, 2018, at 9:42 AM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> especially when said to Wikimedia employees as opposed to volunteers.)
>>> Can you elaborate on that?
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: coc ban

Saint Johann
In reply to this post by Arlo Breault
Of course. But then you also have to consider that certain decisions by
employees also can discourage people from constructive participation,
especially when they are not thinking that their voice is or will be
heard in any way.

@Brion: Wasn’t talking about any ‘abuse’. As far as I know (as nothing
was provided to suggest otherwise), the current case wasn’t about abuse,
but about non-constructive language to an employee. WMF and WMDE
employees, of course, deserve a safe work environment, but they have to
consider that they have the most technical power in Wikimedia community,
and when you have any kind of power, people will not always make
light-hearted criticism of your actions (talking from of my experience
as an ‘interface administrator’ in Russian Wikipedia, and that is still
far less power than a typical employee has in their profile since anyone
can revert you on a wiki).

Oleg

On 08/08/2018 21:00, Arlo Breault wrote:
> On Aug 8, 2018, at 1:43 PM, Saint Johann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Code of conduct is important to be enforced, but, in my opinion, there should be a difference in how it’s enforced. To volunteers that help the movement, there should be no unacceptable language, as it is a way (and a purpose of something like code of conduct) to make MediaWiki development spaces more welcoming to future volunteers.
> Is it not possible that one volunteer's language discourages
> other volunteers from participating, regardless of who it's
> directed at?
>


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Re: coc ban

Andre Klapper-2
In reply to this post by Fæ
On Wed, 2018-08-08 at 15:36 +0100, Fæ wrote:
> So what?

Nah, rather https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism when someone
brings up en.wp stuff though the subject line says CoC?

andre
--
Andre Klapper | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/



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