Re: userbox : insanity ?

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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Ben Emmel
On 1/5/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I have not followed ANY of the discussion on userbox. Have no idea what
> is going on, no idea who supports what, no idea what is going on.
>
> However, I just speedy deleted {{User masturbation-left}}.
>
> It contained this image :
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Masturbationsm.jpg
>
> Sorry if that appears like an admin abuse or whatever, but imho, this is
> just ***ridiculous***.
>
>
> ant


Oh my. This takes the cake. I think we're at the point where we can start
mass-deleting the little userboxes for the good of Wikipedia.

If we don't start now, crap like this will just spread. It's time to put out
the fire. In regards to the few useful userboxes, I'm afraid that sometimes,
good trees get burnt with the bad.

--
Ben Emmel
Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
[hidden email]
"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
-- William Blake
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Re: userbox : insanity ?

SCZenz
I'm not opposed, although I think we could be a little more selective,
but I ask again: how?  We need either a consensus among administrators
or a ruling from Jimbo to do something that the bulk of users are
opposed to, or the results will be more chaos.

SCZenz

On 1/5/06, Ben Emmel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/5/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have not followed ANY of the discussion on userbox. Have no idea what
> > is going on, no idea who supports what, no idea what is going on.
> >
> > However, I just speedy deleted {{User masturbation-left}}.
> >
> > It contained this image :
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Masturbationsm.jpg
> >
> > Sorry if that appears like an admin abuse or whatever, but imho, this is
> > just ***ridiculous***.
> >
> >
> > ant
>
>
> Oh my. This takes the cake. I think we're at the point where we can start
> mass-deleting the little userboxes for the good of Wikipedia.
>
> If we don't start now, crap like this will just spread. It's time to put out
> the fire. In regards to the few useful userboxes, I'm afraid that sometimes,
> good trees get burnt with the bad.
>
> --
> Ben Emmel
> Wikipedia - User:Bratsche
> [hidden email]
> "A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees."
> -- William Blake
> _______________________________________________
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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Spade
Taking away peoples user boxes is pointless and disruptive. Admins who
think they should defy consensus to delete peoples self labels are out
of line. I understand that discussing mastrabation is in bad taste. So
are ALOT of user pages. I have been very disturbed by users whose
pages tell me they are into Satanism, are a "perverted trannfag", or
have a giant che image or soviet star. The single most disruptive user
page I know is this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deeceevoice

and it has no user boxes.

If there are real objections, craft real policy to deal w them. Do not
persecute a popular trend in a disruptive manner. That just reinforces
rebellion and resentment against haughty admins.

Sam Spade
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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Spade
See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cool_Cat/Archive/2006/01#New_user_box

for an explanation for the mastrabating user box. It was ment to be a
disruptive, offensive insult, and is in no way indicative of a larger
trend toward increasingly unreasonable userboxes.

Sam Spade


On 1/6/06, Sam Spade <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Taking away peoples user boxes is pointless and disruptive. Admins who
> think they should defy consensus to delete peoples self labels are out
> of line. I understand that discussing mastrabation is in bad taste. So
> are ALOT of user pages. I have been very disturbed by users whose
> pages tell me they are into Satanism, are a "perverted trannfag", or
> have a giant che image or soviet star. The single most disruptive user
> page I know is this one:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deeceevoice
>
> and it has no user boxes.
>
> If there are real objections, craft real policy to deal w them. Do not
> persecute a popular trend in a disruptive manner. That just reinforces
> rebellion and resentment against haughty admins.
>
> Sam Spade
>
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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Kevin Mulligan
Sam Spade wrote:

> See
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Cool_Cat/Archive/2006/01#New_user_box
>
> for an explanation for the mastrabating user box. It was ment to be a
> disruptive, offensive insult, and is in no way indicative of a larger
> trend toward increasingly unreasonable userboxes.
>
> Sam Spade
>  
Sorry, but that's not the case at all.  I made that userbox after
stumbling upon Cool Cat's page and seeing the massive list of userboxes
there.  When I made it I was unaware of any controversy surrounding
them, I just took one look at that list which seemed to have a box for
everything and made the masturbation one as a parody of this whole
userbox thing.  So yes, it is indicative of a larger trend toward
increasingly unreasonable userboxes.

Kevin.

>
> On 1/6/06, Sam Spade <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Taking away peoples user boxes is pointless and disruptive. Admins who
>> think they should defy consensus to delete peoples self labels are out
>> of line. I understand that discussing mastrabation is in bad taste. So
>> are ALOT of user pages. I have been very disturbed by users whose
>> pages tell me they are into Satanism, are a "perverted trannfag", or
>> have a giant che image or soviet star. The single most disruptive user
>> page I know is this one:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deeceevoice
>>
>> and it has no user boxes.
>>
>> If there are real objections, craft real policy to deal w them. Do not
>> persecute a popular trend in a disruptive manner. That just reinforces
>> rebellion and resentment against haughty admins.
>>
>> Sam Spade
>>
>>    
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>  



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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Ben Emmel
Technical idea : limit the number of templates on a page ?

ant


SCZenz wrote:

> So how do we make things like this go away?  The trouble here is that
> a shocking number, maybe an outright majority, of users seem to think
> "free speech" on Wikipedia is a higher value than actually writing the
> encyclopedia.  I don't think ignoring their views--misguided though
> they may be--will improve the encyclopedia, I think it'll make things
> worse.
>
> SCZenz
>
> On 1/5/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>My position in short
>>
>>We are here to write an encyclopedia. First before all.
>>
>>Userbox are interesting if they are related to Wikipedia activity and
>>growth.
>>
>>Wikipedians mood IS actually important to the community building and
>>interacting.
>>Which browsers are used is also an interesting information to know how
>>Wikipedia appears to readers, detect bugs...
>>Which language the user manage or which project he participates to is
>>also interesting for project management and editors daily interactions.
>>
>>All this is well and good.
>>
>>Which hand is used to masturbate self is of no interest within wikipedia
>>activity, except if one is actually masturbating himself while writing a
>>message on another user talk page. Is that related to Wikipedia ? Is
>>that helping the community ? No. So, it should go away.
>>
>>Having a template stating something against our goals, such as {{User
>>allow fairuse}} has a name : it is trolling. Trolling has benefits...
>>sometimes. But if it disrupts the community too much (and generate
>>thousands of mails on a mailing list, huge loss of time), then, it
>>should just go away.
>>
>>ant
>>
>>
>>SCZenz wrote:
>>
>>>How about {{User allow fairuse}}?  That seems to be against pretty
>>>much everything Wikipedia stands for.  If we have so many users who
>>>think they can *vote* in an unreasonable copyright policy, maybe we
>>>need unilateral admin action after all.
>>>
>>>On 1/5/06, Anthere <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have not followed ANY of the discussion on userbox. Have no idea what
>>>>is going on, no idea who supports what, no idea what is going on.
>>>>
>>>>However, I just speedy deleted {{User masturbation-left}}.
>>>>
>>>>It contained this image :
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Masturbationsm.jpg
>>>>
>>>>Sorry if that appears like an admin abuse or whatever, but imho, this is
>>>>just ***ridiculous***.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>ant


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Re: userbox : insanity ?

Florence Devouard-3
In reply to this post by Sam Spade
Sam Spade wrote:

> Taking away peoples user boxes is pointless and disruptive. Admins who
> think they should defy consensus to delete peoples self labels are out
> of line. I understand that discussing mastrabation is in bad taste. So
> are ALOT of user pages. I have been very disturbed by users whose
> pages tell me they are into Satanism, are a "perverted trannfag", or
> have a giant che image or soviet star. The single most disruptive user
> page I know is this one:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deeceevoice
>
> and it has no user boxes.
>
> If there are real objections, craft real policy to deal w them. Do not
> persecute a popular trend in a disruptive manner. That just reinforces
> rebellion and resentment against haughty admins.
>
> Sam Spade


?????????

yes, I think it is high time for a policy if common sense does not
prevail...

ant

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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Fred Bauder
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
I think so, Time spent policing userboxes  for fair use violations is  
wasted time. but they are fun.

Fred


On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:47 AM, Anthere wrote:

> Technical idea : limit the number of templates on a page ?
>
> ant

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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Kirill Lokshin
On 1/6/06, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think so, Time spent policing userboxes  for fair use violations is
> wasted time. but they are fun.
>
> Fred
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 3:47 AM, Anthere wrote:
>
> > Technical idea : limit the number of templates on a page ?
> >
> > ant

Good idea.  Is there some way this can be done on a per-namespace
basis, though?  A lot of Wikipedia: pages (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template
messages]]) transclude a lot of templates; the use of {{tl}} has also
become quite pervasive, both in Wikipedia: and in Talk:

Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Korn
On 1/6/06, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Good idea.  Is there some way this can be done on a per-namespace
> basis, though?  A lot of Wikipedia: pages (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template
> messages]]) transclude a lot of templates; the use of {{tl}} has also
> become quite pervasive, both in Wikipedia: and in Talk:

{{tl}} should be substituted.

--
Sam
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Kirill Lokshin
On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/6/06, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Good idea.  Is there some way this can be done on a per-namespace
> > basis, though?  A lot of Wikipedia: pages (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template
> > messages]]) transclude a lot of templates; the use of {{tl}} has also
> > become quite pervasive, both in Wikipedia: and in Talk:
>
> {{tl}} should be substituted.

Does it work when substituted now?  I know there were some issues with
that before.

In any case, if we were to do this, we would need a bot to go through
and substitute the massively-used shorthand templates: {{tl}},
{{user}}, {{vandal}}, {{admin}}, etc.

Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Chris Jenkinson
Kirill Lokshin wrote:

> On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>On 1/6/06, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>Good idea.  Is there some way this can be done on a per-namespace
>>>basis, though?  A lot of Wikipedia: pages (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template
>>>messages]]) transclude a lot of templates; the use of {{tl}} has also
>>>become quite pervasive, both in Wikipedia: and in Talk:
>>
>>{{tl}} should be substituted.
>
>
> Does it work when substituted now?  I know there were some issues with
> that before.
>
> In any case, if we were to do this, we would need a bot to go through
> and substitute the massively-used shorthand templates: {{tl}},
> {{user}}, {{vandal}}, {{admin}}, etc.

The point of these templates is that they are short and simple to use.
If they are subst:'d in, they become more complicated. Why do we need to
do this?

Chris

--
Chris Jenkinson
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"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Kirill Lokshin
On 1/6/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kirill Lokshin wrote:
> > On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>On 1/6/06, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Good idea.  Is there some way this can be done on a per-namespace
> >>>basis, though?  A lot of Wikipedia: pages (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template
> >>>messages]]) transclude a lot of templates; the use of {{tl}} has also
> >>>become quite pervasive, both in Wikipedia: and in Talk:
> >>
> >>{{tl}} should be substituted.
> >
> >
> > Does it work when substituted now?  I know there were some issues with
> > that before.
> >
> > In any case, if we were to do this, we would need a bot to go through
> > and substitute the massively-used shorthand templates: {{tl}},
> > {{user}}, {{vandal}}, {{admin}}, etc.
>
> The point of these templates is that they are short and simple to use.
> If they are subst:'d in, they become more complicated. Why do we need to
> do this?

Because otherwise they won't work, given that they tend to be used
many times on a single page.

This entire discussion, of course, assumes that limiting the number of
templates expanded per page is actually something that may take place.

Kirill Lokshin
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Conrad Dunkerson
In reply to this post by Florence Devouard-3
Anthere wrote:
> Technical idea : limit the number of templates on a page ?

I don't think it would help. The first 'solution' would be a pyramid
scheme... if you can only call five templates then the userpage would
call five template pages... which would each call five template pages...
et cetera.

So then we start cracking down on that (it's meta-templating)... and
some clever person eventually realizes that there is no reason
whatsoever that each userbox has to be a separate template. You could
include every userbox on wikipedia into a single template call. That
might limit the order in which they appear, but I think that could be
worked out as well.
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by Chris Jenkinson
On 1/6/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >>{{tl}} should be substituted.
> >
> >
> > Does it work when substituted now?  I know there were some issues with
> > that before.
> >
> > In any case, if we were to do this, we would need a bot to go through
> > and substitute the massively-used shorthand templates: {{tl}},
> > {{user}}, {{vandal}}, {{admin}}, etc.
>
> The point of these templates is that they are short and simple to use.
> If they are subst:'d in, they become more complicated. Why do we need to
> do this?

Benefit to the servers.  Avoidable use of templates should be avoided,
and substitution is an easy way of doing that.  Creating slightly ugly
code is unfortunate but inevitable.

--
Sam
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Matthew Brown-5
On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/6/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > The point of these templates is that they are short and simple to use.
> > If they are subst:'d in, they become more complicated. Why do we need to
> > do this?
>
> Benefit to the servers.  Avoidable use of templates should be avoided,
> and substitution is an easy way of doing that.  Creating slightly ugly
> code is unfortunate but inevitable.

Is there template syntax to force a template to always subst: in?  If
not, it might be a good idea.

-Matt
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Korn
On 1/6/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there template syntax to force a template to always subst: in?  If
> not, it might be a good idea.

No, but I believe some bots do it.

--
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Nyenyec N
If you disallow templates, people who like them will just copy&paste
the code on their user page. It doesn't take longer at all, one just
needs to mark slightly more text with their mouse.

I think if you want to limit the kind of content that can be posted on
a user page, you'll need to come up with a new policy, not a new piece
of code.

Although removing fair use images from user pages by a bot can work.

-- nyenyec

On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1/6/06, Matt Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Is there template syntax to force a template to always subst: in?  If
> > not, it might be a good idea.
>
> No, but I believe some bots do it.
>
> --
> Sam
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Sam Korn
On 1/6/06, Nyenyec N <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you disallow templates, people who like them will just copy&paste
> the code on their user page. It doesn't take longer at all, one just
> needs to mark slightly more text with their mouse.

That cuts out my main complaint against userboxes.

--
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Re: Re: userbox : insanity ?

Carbonite
On 1/6/06, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/6/06, Nyenyec N <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If you disallow templates, people who like them will just copy&paste
> > the code on their user page. It doesn't take longer at all, one just
> > needs to mark slightly more text with their mouse.
>
> That cuts out my main complaint against userboxes.

Exactly. I'd like to have a repository of code for creating whatever
userboxes people come up with. No fair use images or categories would
be allowed. Userboxes that actually had an encyclopedic use (Babel
boxes, for example) could remain as templates. This would seem to
allow everyone to keep their userboxes and would remove the vast
majority of complaints about them.

Carbonite
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