Recent firing?

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Re: Recent firing?

Effe iets anders
2009/11/2 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>

>
>
>
> I'm happy arguing about this. No-one is forcing you to do so. If you
> want to start another thread about the colour of the sky, go right
> ahead.
>
> Why can't people on this list learn how to ignore threads? It is very
> easy to do. You just don't click on them when they appear in your
> inbox. I'm not interested in everything that is discussed on this
> list, but I don't complain about other people discussing it; I just
> ignore it.
>
> Why can't people learn when a discussion is irritating other people, why
can't people learn which discussions are most useful to have, why can't
people learn that they might frustrate the very reason for existance of this
list? Why can't people learn to realize when to shut up?
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Re: Recent firing?

Thomas Dalton
2009/11/2 effe iets anders <[hidden email]>:

> 2009/11/2 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm happy arguing about this. No-one is forcing you to do so. If you
>> want to start another thread about the colour of the sky, go right
>> ahead.
>>
>> Why can't people on this list learn how to ignore threads? It is very
>> easy to do. You just don't click on them when they appear in your
>> inbox. I'm not interested in everything that is discussed on this
>> list, but I don't complain about other people discussing it; I just
>> ignore it.
>>
>> Why can't people learn when a discussion is irritating other people, why
> can't people learn which discussions are most useful to have, why can't
> people learn that they might frustrate the very reason for existance of this
> list? Why can't people learn to realize when to shut up?

I do know when a discussion is irritating people - they make that very
clear. What I don't understand is why it irritates them when they
could so easily ignore it. There are no limits on how many threads we
can have, so saying there are other more useful discussions is a
complete non-argument. There are two solutions to this problem -
people can ignore the threads they aren't interested in at negligible
cost to themselves, or other people can stop discussing the things
they are interested it, which is obviously a cost in itself. The
former seems like a better solution to me...

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Re: Recent firing?

WJhonson
In reply to this post by MZMcBride
In a message dated 11/2/2009 8:31:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Why can't people learn when a discussion is irritating other people, why
> can't people learn which discussions are most useful to have, why can't
> people learn that they might frustrate the very reason for existance of
> this
> list? Why can't people learn to realize when to shut up?>>

Why can't people realize they have no right to demand that others be
silent?  Why can't people realize that the delete key is their friend, no one is
making anyone read anything, that there is a choice?  Why can't people
realize that what is irritating to some, is interesting to others?  Why can't
people realize that censorship does not stop conversation, it makes it explode
elsewhere to the detriment of all parties?

Will

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Re: Recent firing?

Thomas Dalton
2009/11/2  <[hidden email]>:

> In a message dated 11/2/2009 8:31:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>> Why can't people learn when a discussion is irritating other people, why
>> can't people learn which discussions are most useful to have, why can't
>> people learn that they might frustrate the very reason for existance of
>> this
>> list? Why can't people learn to realize when to shut up?>>
>
> Why can't people realize they have no right to demand that others be
> silent?  Why can't people realize that the delete key is their friend, no one is
> making anyone read anything, that there is a choice?  Why can't people
> realize that what is irritating to some, is interesting to others?  Why can't
> people realize that censorship does not stop conversation, it makes it explode
> elsewhere to the detriment of all parties?

Why can't people use email clients that don't break threads? ;)

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Re: Recent firing?

WJhonson
In reply to this post by MZMcBride
In a message dated 11/2/2009 10:59:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Why can't people use email clients that don't break threads? ;)  >>>

AOL = Satan
They are out to destroy all life and light.

Will

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Re: Recent firing?

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by Dan Collins-5
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 12:27 AM, Dan Collins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Yes, you can delete the archives on the WMF site. That does make much
>> > difference. It will still be in everyone's inboxes and on various
>> > other archive sites.
>>
>> So, what, don't do the right thing and delete it because some archive
>> sites might not do the same thing?  Whatever.  Not my fight.  And at
>> least the guy has a relatively common name.
>
> How can a WIKIMEDIAN, a member of a project that prides itself in the
> freedom of information, support the censoring of information and the
> stifling of free discourse like this?

I don't support the stifling of free discourse.  I don't have a
problem with the issue being brought up and discussed, I just think
it'd be nice to take the person's name out of the archive, at least
unless and until there is some evidence that it is true.

I fail to see how this is contrary to the mission of the Wikimedia
Foundation to "empower and engage people around the world to collect
and develop educational content under a free license or in the public
domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally".  I think it
promotes it, indirectly by making for a more friendly environment if
not directly by paving the way for real educational content.

To anyone else who doesn't like this thread (especially the ones who
are actually trying to stifle free discourse).  I'm sorry, but I think
this subthread is completely within the scope of this list.  I think
it's essential for us all to fight hard against the notion that
removal of rumors and libel is somehow "OMG CENSORSHIP" which is
forbidden by the organization's mission.

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Re: Recent firing?

metasj
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Anthony <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I fail to see how this is contrary to the mission of the Wikimedia
> Foundation to "empower and engage people around the world to collect
> and develop educational content under a free license or in the public
> domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally".  I think it
> promotes it, indirectly by making for a more friendly environment if
> not directly by paving the way for real educational content.
>

Yes.  "Making for a more friendly environment" is absolutely relevant to
that mission.

Thomas writes:
> I do know when a discussion is irritating people - they make that very
> clear. What I don't understand is why it irritates them when they
> could so easily ignore it. There are no limits on how many threads we
> can have, so saying there are other more useful discussions is a
> complete non-argument.

This is also about making for a more friendly environment.  To be fair,
technology has backpedaled a bit here.  Many modern mail clients don't
support killing threads, so you have to delete each new message as it comes
along, and have no choice but to read annoying subject headers every time.
[dear gmail: this is ridiculous.]  Both of which make flames or other
deathless threads annoying proportional to their size.

> There are two solutions to this problem -
> people can ignore the threads they aren't interested in at negligible
> cost to themselves, or other people can stop discussing the things
> they are interested it, which is obviously a cost in itself.

This is the heart of the matter.   A number of people have already stopped
discussing the things they are interested in here, or even reading
regularly, because they find this forum too noisy to use.   So it is a
tradeoff between who feels comfortable posting and reading here.

Since this is one of the few cross-foundation channels, as many people as
possible should feel somewhat comfortable here.  And since all channels can
be saturated -- and many people's responses indicate that this one gets
saturated for them by long contentious threads -- either the aggressive
posters or the saturated readers are going to find their preferred use of
the list frustrated.

If you find yourself posting for the fifth or eighth time to a thread,
please consider this tradeoff, and other ways to get your point across.  I
prefer wikiessays (rc is a much harder channel to saturate), but ymmv.

SJ
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Re: Recent firing?

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by WJhonson
[hidden email] wrote:
> In a message dated 11/2/2009 10:59:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>> Why can't people use email clients that don't break threads? ;)  >>>
>
> AOL = Satan
> They are out to destroy all life and light.

Last time I checked, you could use any email client you liked when
connected to AOL, you only have to use the broken one they supply if
you don't understand how to use computers.

<http://help.aol.com/help/microsites/search.do?cmd=displayKC&docType=kc&externalId=217449>

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Recent firing?

WJhonson
In reply to this post by metasj
Personally, I process about two or three hundred emails per day (yes per day), so the small amount of noise the Foundation list creates is negligible to me.

If someone is so annoyed by a thread, that they can't even bother to DWR (delete without reading) based merely on the subject title, I would think we need to question whether that person has the right temperament for the internet whatsoever.  I delete at least two or three dozen emails every day without reading them, if I already know the subject is not going to be of "interest" to me.

I would submit the real issue here, is not that people are doing that or could, but rather that they have a compulsion to *keep reading* the thread.  Sort of a, "I don't want to be left out, or I want to keep watching the train wreck" or something.  I'm not a psychologist.  I do know however, that the entire issue of "let's close this thread", "let's moderated these people", " this is too noisy" and so on, is endemic to the entire email world.  Not merely this list.

I can't think of any list I'm on (and I'm on a few dozen), where the issue does not come up with regularity.  It is merely part of the way internetlife is, in my opinion.

Will





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Re: Recent firing?

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2

 That's a bit of an extreme remark Tim.  There are millions of computer programmers in the world, who do not know or care to try to learn how to operate AOL.  Not every programmers is a Windows programmer.  Myopic view of "understanding computers".  I could just as well opine, that people who don't know how to relink bombed Pascal pointers "don't understand computers".

In fact I just sent a nasty-gram to the people at JustAnswers.com who, in deciding whether you are a "Computer Expert" ask you eight questions about Windows !  What a bunch of noodles.


 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Starling <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 2:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Recent firing?










[hidden email] wrote:
> In a message dated 11/2/2009 10:59:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>
>
>> Why can't people use email clients that don't break threads? ;)  >>>
>
> AOL = Satan
> They are out to destroy all life and light.

Last time I checked, you could use any email client you liked when
connected to AOL, you only have to use the broken one they supply if
you don't understand how to use computers.

<http://help.aol.com/help/microsites/search.do?cmd=displayKC&docType=kc&externalId=217449>

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Recent firing?

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by WJhonson
Hoi,
It is not about you.. it is about US ... and some of us are not like you, do
not agree with you and have a different outlook on this... Please get it
that most people do not have the time to waste on so many e-mails.

There is also the fact that most threads including this one do not stay on
topic and consequently sometimes they become interesting.
Thanks,
      GerardM

2009/11/2 <[hidden email]>

> Personally, I process about two or three hundred emails per day (yes per
> day), so the small amount of noise the Foundation list creates is negligible
> to me.
>
> If someone is so annoyed by a thread, that they can't even bother to DWR
> (delete without reading) based merely on the subject title, I would think we
> need to question whether that person has the right temperament for the
> internet whatsoever.  I delete at least two or three dozen emails every day
> without reading them, if I already know the subject is not going to be of
> "interest" to me.
>
> I would submit the real issue here, is not that people are doing that or
> could, but rather that they have a compulsion to *keep reading* the thread.
>  Sort of a, "I don't want to be left out, or I want to keep watching the
> train wreck" or something.  I'm not a psychologist.  I do know however, that
> the entire issue of "let's close this thread", "let's moderated these
> people", " this is too noisy" and so on, is endemic to the entire email
> world.  Not merely this list.
>
> I can't think of any list I'm on (and I'm on a few dozen), where the issue
> does not come up with regularity.  It is merely part of the way internetlife
> is, in my opinion.
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Recent firing?

WJhonson

 And I never said it is about *me* stop trying to make this personal.
I am not directing my remarks at *you*, so stop directing yours at *me*.
There are many people on this very list who have said essentially the exact same thing.
You should re-read the thread again to make that apparent, if you're not clear on that.
Thanks
Will

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 3:07 pm
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Recent firing?










Hoi,
It is not about you.. it is about US ... and some of us are not like you, do
not agree with you and have a different outlook on this... Please get it
that most people do not have the time to waste on so many e-mails.

There is also the fact that most threads including this one do not stay on
topic and consequently sometimes they become interesting.
Thanks,
      GerardM

2009/11/2 <[hidden email]>

> Personally, I process about two or three hundred emails per day (yes per
> day), so the small amount of noise the Foundation list creates is negligible
> to me.
>
> If someone is so annoyed by a thread, that they can't even bother to DWR
> (delete without reading) based merely on the subject title, I would think we
> need to question whether that person has the right temperament for the
> internet whatsoever.  I delete at least two or three dozen emails every day
> without reading them, if I already know the subject is not going to be of
> "interest" to me.
>
> I would submit the real issue here, is not that people are doing that or
> could, but rather that they have a compulsion to *keep reading* the thread.
>  Sort of a, "I don't want to be left out, or I want to keep watching the
> train wreck" or something.  I'm not a psychologist.  I do know however, that
> the entire issue of "let's close this thread", "let's moderated these
> people", " this is too noisy" and so on, is endemic to the entire email
> world.  Not merely this list.
>
> I can't think of any list I'm on (and I'm on a few dozen), where the issue
> does not come up with regularity.  It is merely part of the way internetlife
> is, in my opinion.
>
> Will
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by WJhonson


--- On Mon, 11/2/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Recent firing?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 4:55 PM
> Personally, I process about two or
> three hundred emails per day (yes per day), so the small
> amount of noise the Foundation list creates is negligible to
> me.
>
> If someone is so annoyed by a thread, that they can't even
> bother to DWR (delete without reading) based merely on the
> subject title, I would think we need to question whether
> that person has the right temperament for the internet
> whatsoever.  I delete at least two or three dozen
> emails every day without reading them, if I already know the
> subject is not going to be of "interest" to me.
>
> I would submit the real issue here, is not that people are
> doing that or could, but rather that they have a compulsion
> to *keep reading* the thread.  Sort of a, "I don't want
> to be left out, or I want to keep watching the train wreck"
> or something.  I'm not a psychologist.  I do know
> however, that the entire issue of "let's close this thread",
> "let's moderated these people", " this is too noisy" and so
> on, is endemic to the entire email world.  Not merely
> this list.
>
> I can't think of any list I'm on (and I'm on a few dozen),
> where the issue does not come up with regularity.  It
> is merely part of the way internetlife is, in my opinion.
>


"The right temperment for the interner?"

Maybe you would have a point if this was and email list targeted at people who spend every waking hour plugged into the internet.  I realize some of come close to that.  But that is not the target audience of this email list.  Nor the Wikimedia movement.  And if those of you who have the temperment and lifestyle for such participation do not control yourselves enough so that this forum might succeed in included more than just those participants similar to yourselves, Wikimedia will be sorrier for it.

On a personal note, last week I have gone to having the responsibilities of three people jobs, instead of only those two I have been handling for most of the past year.  Maybe I will resubscribe when I can hire people again.  Good luck with making sure this list is worth re-subscribing too.  I truly hope you all succeed with that.

Birgitte SB


     

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

phoebe ayers-3
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Birgitte SB <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> --- On Mon, 11/2/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Recent firing?
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Monday, November 2, 2009, 4:55 PM
>> Personally, I process about two or
>> three hundred emails per day (yes per day), so the small
>> amount of noise the Foundation list creates is negligible to
>> me.
>>
>> If someone is so annoyed by a thread, that they can't even
>> bother to DWR (delete without reading) based merely on the
>> subject title, I would think we need to question whether
>> that person has the right temperament for the internet
>> whatsoever.  I delete at least two or three dozen
>> emails every day without reading them, if I already know the
>> subject is not going to be of "interest" to me.
>>
>> I would submit the real issue here, is not that people are
>> doing that or could, but rather that they have a compulsion
>> to *keep reading* the thread.  Sort of a, "I don't want
>> to be left out, or I want to keep watching the train wreck"
>> or something.  I'm not a psychologist.  I do know
>> however, that the entire issue of "let's close this thread",
>> "let's moderated these people", " this is too noisy" and so
>> on, is endemic to the entire email world.  Not merely
>> this list.
>>
>> I can't think of any list I'm on (and I'm on a few dozen),
>> where the issue does not come up with regularity.  It
>> is merely part of the way internetlife is, in my opinion.
>>
>
>
> "The right temperment for the interner?"
>
> Maybe you would have a point if this was and email list targeted at people who spend every waking hour plugged into the internet.  I realize some of come close to that.  But that is not the target audience of this email list.  Nor the Wikimedia movement.  And if those of you who have the temperment and lifestyle for such participation do not control yourselves enough so that this forum might succeed in included more than just those participants similar to yourselves, Wikimedia will be sorrier for it.
>
> On a personal note, last week I have gone to having the responsibilities of three people jobs, instead of only those two I have been handling for most of the past year.  Maybe I will resubscribe when I can hire people again.  Good luck with making sure this list is worth re-subscribing too.  I truly hope you all succeed with that.
>
> Birgitte SB

Hear hear. And even people who do spend a heck of a lot of their time
on Wikimedia might not want to spend it all reading F-l. And no, they
don't have to -- but if you want to keep up with general discussion
about the Foundation, you actually *do*. This is the main forum.
Dominating it is as rude as being that guy in a classroom who won't
shut up, to the detriment of all the other students who can't get a
word in edgewise; only in this case, there's no professor to maintain
order. If you're that guy, it's not like you're more brilliant than
everyone else; you're just more talkative and don't have any social
skills, and you are adversely affecting everyone else that has to
share the space with you.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Improving_Foundation-l is still up but
hasn't gotten any new traffic in the last few weeks. Suggestions
included:
* starting a forum
* starting an announcements list
* limiting posting

others?
-- phoebe

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

Ray Saintonge
phoebe ayers wrote:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Improving_Foundation-l is still up but
> hasn't gotten any new traffic in the last few weeks. Suggestions
> included:
> * starting a forum
> * starting an announcements list
> * limiting posting
>
>  
Looking at that discussion's history I see the following number of postings:
    Sept 9:   17
    Sept.10: 13
    Sept.11: 12
    Sept.12:  0
    Sept.13:  1
    Sept.14:  1
    Sept.15:  0
    Sept.16:  2
    Sept.17:  1
    ...and nothing since

So it seems that after three days the discussion had essentially run its
course, much in the way of many mailing list threads, including
controversial or even inflammatory threads. An analysis of more threads
or wiki discussions in a similar way could be interesting.  I also not
that the 9th was a Wednesday, and that the drop in list traffic on
weekends may itself have a dampening effect on the life of threads in
that list.

I would also suggest that any suggestion of moderation or other
throttling strategy during the life helps to extend the life of an
otherwise exhausted thread.  Perhaps that should be a mailing list
corollary to Godwin's law.


Ec

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

WJhonson
In reply to this post by Birgitte_sb
"Dominating it" Phoebe?  We're talking about *a* single thread.  One
thread.  That you can delete on sight without reading.  And yet you keep reading
it, and you keep complaining about reading it.  Doesn't that seem a bit
counter-productive.

Just... stop... reading.. that one thread.  Just say no.  I have faith.

Will

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:00 PM, phoebe ayers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> only in this case, there's no professor to maintain order.

This list has moderators.  Complain to them if you think they're doing
a bad job.

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

WJhonson
Reasonable people in general have a natural tendency to maintain order without the need for police action.  We all live in communities where chaos is not rampant.  The application of excessive force is not conducive to a well-ordered society.

Somewhere on my site, I quote Jimmy Wales where he states that he, when he was a list moderator, allowed conversations to simply run their course.  In my opinion, that is always the most civil thing to do.

Will Johnson




=
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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

Nathan Awrich
Wikimedia draws a disproportionate number of two types of people:
those with some antisocial tendencies, and those with an unusual
belief in various notions of "freedom." People being people, anyone in
both groups will tend to use the second trait to reinforce the first.
We've developed the basics of a legal system and a convoluted set of
policies on the English 'pedia to attempt to address this particular
problem, but as most know we're a ways from doing that well. Some
folks are convinced that their rights to a forum require others to
accommodate them; because they're clods and don't respond to social
pressure, most eventually vote with their metaphorical feet.

Nathan

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Re: The state of Foundation-l (again) was: Recent firing?

Effe iets anders
In reply to this post by WJhonson
except that this happens in many threads and is a general problem coming
back allt he time.

eia

2009/11/4 <[hidden email]>

> "Dominating it" Phoebe?  We're talking about *a* single thread.  One
> thread.  That you can delete on sight without reading.  And yet you keep
> reading
> it, and you keep complaining about reading it.  Doesn't that seem a bit
> counter-productive.
>
> Just... stop... reading.. that one thread.  Just say no.  I have faith.
>
> Will
>
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