Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

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Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Legoktm
Hello,

This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
that our projects need to work together and support each other.

In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.

If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).

And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
Mozilla.

Thoughts, opinions?

[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
[2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications

Thanks,
-- Legoktm

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

bawolff
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
>
> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.
>
> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
>
> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> Mozilla.
>
> Thoughts, opinions?
>
> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
>
> Thanks,
> -- Legoktm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.

Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
like a slippery slope to me.

Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).

--
Brian

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Max Semenik
+1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> > Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> > that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> >
> > In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> > Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> > was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> with.
> >
> > If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> > us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> >
> > And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> > Mozilla.
> >
> > Thoughts, opinions?
> >
> > [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -- Legoktm
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>
> Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> like a slippery slope to me.
>
> Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
>
> --
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Jon Robson
The best way we can invest in Firefox is via open web technology such as
push notifications imo.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 at 16:51 Max Semenik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
> blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania,
> when
> > > Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > > Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> > > that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> > >
> > > In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > > Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> > > Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > > project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> > > was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > > notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> > with.
> > >
> > > If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > > support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > > too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and
> allowing
> > > us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> > >
> > > And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> > > Mozilla.
> > >
> > > Thoughts, opinions?
> > >
> > > [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > > [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -- Legoktm
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> >
> > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > like a slippery slope to me.
> >
> > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> >
> > --
> > Brian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Fæ
In reply to this post by bawolff
On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
>> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
>> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
>> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
>>
>> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
>> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
>> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
>> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
>> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
>> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people with.
>>
>> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
>> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
>> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
>> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
>>
>> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
>> Mozilla.
>>
>> Thoughts, opinions?
>>
>> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
>> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Legoktm
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>
> Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> like a slippery slope to me.
>
> Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
>
> --
> Brian
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

+1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
political, discussion.

I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
increase risks downstream.

Fae
--
[hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Neil P. Quinn
Personally (because I have no expertise in thing kind of thing in my WMF
capacity), I'd very much support this. It *would *be showing a bias towards
Mozilla and Firefox, but I think it's entirely reasonable for us to be
biased towards non-profit, open technology. A web with Firefox as a strong
player is considerably more hospitable to us than one without.

I agree this should be discussed in a wider forum like on Meta, but I look
forward to supporting it there too :)

On 31 August 2017 at 14:20, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania, when
> >> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> >> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned was
> >> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> >>
> >> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> >> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support at
> >> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> >> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option. I
> >> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> >> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> with.
> >>
> >> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> >> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> >> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and allowing
> >> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> >>
> >> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with us:
> >> Mozilla.
> >>
> >> Thoughts, opinions?
> >>
> >> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> >> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> -- Legoktm
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> >
> > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > like a slippery slope to me.
> >
> > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> >
> > --
> > Brian
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> political, discussion.
>
> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> increase risks downstream.
>
> Fae
> --
> [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



--
Neil Patel Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
product analyst
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

David Gerard-2
There's a pile of minor open source browsers too ... maybe redirect to a
page with a list.


- d.

On 31 August 2017 at 22:48, Neil Patel Quinn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Personally (because I have no expertise in thing kind of thing in my WMF
> capacity), I'd very much support this. It *would *be showing a bias towards
> Mozilla and Firefox, but I think it's entirely reasonable for us to be
> biased towards non-profit, open technology. A web with Firefox as a strong
> player is considerably more hospitable to us than one without.
>
> I agree this should be discussed in a wider forum like on Meta, but I look
> forward to supporting it there too :)
>
> On 31 August 2017 at 14:20, Fæ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 31 August 2017 at 21:37, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Legoktm <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> This was something that came up during "The Big Open" at Wikimania,
> when
> > >> Katherine Maher talked with Ryan Merkley (CEO of Creative Commons) and
> > >> Mark Surman (ED of Mozilla Foundation). One of the themes mentioned
> was
> > >> that our projects need to work together and support each other.
> > >>
> > >> In that vein, I'm interested in what people think about promoting
> > >> Firefox to users who are using legacy browsers that we don't support
> at
> > >> Grade A (or some other criteria). As part of the "drop IE8 on XP"
> > >> project[1] we're already promoting Firefox as the alternative option.
> I
> > >> was imagining it could be a small and unobtrusive bubble
> > >> notification[2], similar to those that Google pushes Chrome on people
> > with.
> > >>
> > >> If users use modern browsers, they're going to have better security
> > >> support, and most likely a better experience browsing Wikimedia sites
> > >> too. We'd be improving the web by reducing legacy browsers, and
> allowing
> > >> us to move forward with newer technology sooner (ideally).
> > >>
> > >> And we'd be supporting a project that is ideologically aligned with
> us:
> > >> Mozilla.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts, opinions?
> > >>
> > >> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T147199
> > >> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bubble_notifications
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> -- Legoktm
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > > I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
> > >
> > > Suggesting Firefox for IE8 on XP makes sense because it is basically
> > > the only option for that platform that is reasonably secure and not
> > > super obscure. Promoting firefox is general for legacy browsers seems
> > > like a slippery slope to me.
> > >
> > > Additionally, I think this is more a political than a technical
> > > decision, and one that would require consultation with the general
> > > Wikimedia community (e.g. Meta RFC).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> > +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> > political, discussion.
> >
> > I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
> > Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> > organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> > increase risks downstream.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > [hidden email] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Patel Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
> product analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Legoktm
In reply to this post by Max Semenik
Hi,

On 08/31/2017 01:51 PM, Max Semenik wrote:
> +1 to that. Additionally, the proposed method wouldn't even work because we
> blacklist crappy browsers from receiving JS.

This isn't strictly true, we give legacy browsers some JS to make new
HTML5 elements work using html5shiv[1]. And I think the specific
implementation can be fleshed out a little later, that was just a
concept/idea. :)

[1] https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/369991/

-- Legoktm

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Gergo Tisza
In reply to this post by bawolff
On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>

We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
https://browsehappy.com/
Motivating users to update their outdated browsers would definitely be a
good idea. It has the usual problem of notifications though: prompting the
user repeatedly with the same message gets annoying quickly, and we cannot
easily rely on the browser to remember whether it has already seen the
message in the past as the browser could have cookies disabled etc.
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Legoktm
In reply to this post by Fæ
Hi,

On 08/31/2017 02:20 PM, Fæ wrote:
> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
> political, discussion.

Just to clarify, I fully plan on turning this into a wider discussion on
Meta or alternative venue if/when pursuing this further. I was just
trying to use wikitech-l as a place to gauge initial reactions from.

Where do you think the slippery slope would lead us to? I don't think
we're ever going to tell our users to start using GNU/Linux or something.

> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.

I think we aim for this, but this isn't the actual case when it comes to
browser support. For some time Chromium users had better load
performance than Firefox users due to how localStorage was used, and in
another case Opera 12 users couldn't access some pages with apostrophes
in them.

In this case, I'm deliberately proposing that we do take a side and
align ourselves with Mozilla/Firefox. The main takeaway I got from the
Wikimania session I mentioned earlier was that all of us free software
and open content projects need to work together and support each other.

We've already seen the open web lose when Mozilla gave into EME, simply
because it didn't have enough market share to actually make a
difference[1]. I'm afraid of the future where we no longer have an ally
who can defend and push the shared Wikimedian ideals in the web browser
space.

> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
> increase risks downstream.

I do agree this adds risks to us, like in terms of public image if
something bad happens regarding Firefox. But I don't think it should be
a locked/fixed relationship, it should be something that we can say "no
this isn't working" and turn off whenever we need to.

[1]
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/05/14/drm-and-the-challenge-of-serving-users/

-- Legoktm

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Comet styles
The recent update of Firefox has made it worse, it basically kills
most of the extensions, deletes your browser bookmark cache and make
nearly all legacy addons useless, so yeah no, unless Firefox stop
making things worse, they should not be the alternative, most would
rather stick with Google Chrome...It has become a danger to even try
to update your browser cause something else breaks after every
update..

On 9/1/17, Legoktm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/31/2017 02:20 PM, Fæ wrote:
>> +1 on appearing to be a slippery slope and benefiting from wider,
>> political, discussion.
>
> Just to clarify, I fully plan on turning this into a wider discussion on
> Meta or alternative venue if/when pursuing this further. I was just
> trying to use wikitech-l as a place to gauge initial reactions from.
>
> Where do you think the slippery slope would lead us to? I don't think
> we're ever going to tell our users to start using GNU/Linux or something.
>
>> I've promoted Wikimedia and projects as being deliberately agnostic.
>
> I think we aim for this, but this isn't the actual case when it comes to
> browser support. For some time Chromium users had better load
> performance than Firefox users due to how localStorage was used, and in
> another case Opera 12 users couldn't access some pages with apostrophes
> in them.
>
> In this case, I'm deliberately proposing that we do take a side and
> align ourselves with Mozilla/Firefox. The main takeaway I got from the
> Wikimania session I mentioned earlier was that all of us free software
> and open content projects need to work together and support each other.
>
> We've already seen the open web lose when Mozilla gave into EME, simply
> because it didn't have enough market share to actually make a
> difference[1]. I'm afraid of the future where we no longer have an ally
> who can defend and push the shared Wikimedian ideals in the web browser
> space.
>
>> Strategically, locking Wikimedia into fixed relationships with other
>> organizations with their own drives and timelines, is going to
>> increase risks downstream.
>
> I do agree this adds risks to us, like in terms of public image if
> something bad happens regarding Firefox. But I don't think it should be
> a locked/fixed relationship, it should be something that we can say "no
> this isn't working" and turn off whenever we need to.
>
> [1]
> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/05/14/drm-and-the-challenge-of-serving-users/
>
> -- Legoktm
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


--
Cometstyles

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Gergo Tisza
On 01/09/2017 01:58, Gergo Tisza wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:37 PM, bawolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I'm concerned this would be seen as an inapropriate bias.
>>
>
> We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
> https://browsehappy.com/
> Motivating users to update their outdated browsers would definitely be a
> good idea.

+1

Tell people to update very old browser, sure. Advertise a specific one,
no no.

KTC


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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by Gergo Tisza
On 1 September 2017 at 01:58, Gergo Tisza <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We could send them to something like https://whatbrowser.org/ or
> https://browsehappy.com/


whatbrowser.org is definitely a nice experience, but it does require JS to
work; it fails to load both your current browser and suggestions for others
without JS. A lot of older browsers do have Javascript support, so that
might not be a problem, but perhaps it could be for some browsers.

Speaking of neutrality, it's important to note that whatbrowser.org is
owned and run by Google. I don't think that's a problem, since the site is
fairly neutral in its assessment and recommendations.

Dan

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Legoktm
-1 to linking any resource which is not itself free software,
translatable with free software and managed by a privacy-compliant org.

Positive example of what I mean: https://pdfreaders.org/ .

At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
can't support the incumbent).

Nemo

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Chad
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
> can't support the incumbent).
>
>
Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?

-Chad
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

zppix e
Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects and let the user decide

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
>> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
>> can't support the incumbent).
>>
>>
> Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
>
> -Chad
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Neil P. Quinn
I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against *both
*the goals of doing this in the first place.

The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
(or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.

The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
many different browsers with tiny market shares.

I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
(3) which single browser would be the best destination

Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
disagree :)

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

On 1 September 2017 at 12:15, zppix e <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects
> and let the user decide
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
> >> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
> >> can't support the incumbent).
> >>
> >>
> > Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
> >
> > -Chad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>



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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

zppix e
I personally use firefox on desktop and safari on my mobile (im lazy to install an web browser on mobile lol) but I don't think we should make users feel like we're pushing them towards a certain browser because someone(s) agree the browser is recommended. While yes people may see the list and get overwhelmed and not update but at the same time not showing them more than one option can cause the same thing because they feel we support one thing over another. All in all I have no issue recommending firefox i just have an issue not giving the user a feeling of choice of modern browsers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 1, 2017, at 5:56 PM, Neil Patel Quinn <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
> list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against *both
> *the goals of doing this in the first place.
>
> The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
> browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
> (or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
> and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.
>
> The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
> makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
> this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
> already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
> many different browsers with tiny market shares.
>
> I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
> goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
> (3) which single browser would be the best destination
>
> Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
> disagree :)
>
> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
>
>> On 1 September 2017 at 12:15, zppix e <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Why dont we link to an list of web browsers compatible with wmf projects
>> and let the user decide
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Sep 1, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Chad <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At least until a proper resource exists, just directing people to the
>>>> latest Firefox is probably the most reasonable option (we certainly
>>>> can't support the incumbent).
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Is linking to Firefox and Chromium an option?
>>>
>>> -Chad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Neil Patel Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
> product analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Chad
In reply to this post by Neil P. Quinn
On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 3:57 PM Neil Patel Quinn <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I understand the desire to avoid playing favorites by directing users to a
> list of browsers rather than a single one, but I think that cuts against
> *both
> *the goals of doing this in the first place.
>
> The first goal is to nudge users to upgrade from an insecure, less-capable
> browser to a modern one. But if we present them a list of 10 alternatives
> (or even 2), they're far more likely to get stuck in choice paralysis [1]
> and far less likely to actually do what we want and upgrade.
>
>
Indeed. A big list of "HEY PICK ONE OF THESE" means we'll end up fracturing
our users over a bunch of browsers that most of us would never even use
ourselves. I merely suggested Chromium alongside Firefox because it's also
free/open, even if driven by the BIG EVIL GOOGLE.


> The second goal is to strengthen non-profit, open-web-focused browser
> makers by increasing their market share. As I see it, the best way to do
> this is to nudge all our users towards a single, high-quality browser which
> already has significant market share, rather than distributing them across
> many different browsers with tiny market shares.
>
>
Indeed, like I said above. However high quality is subjective...my
experiences with Firefox have been horrible the last several years, which
is why I stick to Chromium/Chrome mostly. That's why I'd suggest like
basically 2-3 options tops so we don't play favorites :)


> I'd suggest that the best areas for debate are (1) whether these are good
> goals, (2) whether their benefits justify interrupting users' browsing, and
> (3) which single browser would be the best destination
>
> Obviously, my answers are (1) yes, (2) yes, and (3) Firefox, but some will
> disagree :)
>
>
(1) Eh, maybe. I care mostly because these older platforms are horribly
insecure and if we can get people on a half-decent browser on those
platforms then that's a win (cf: T118181 and all its various linked tasks).
Javascript is wayyyyy down the list of why I care here :)

(2) We already interrupt some of these users anyway per the TLS migration
stuff I mentioned in (1) above. I think the rollout there--start with small
percentages and slowly ramp up prior to there being a deadline is a good
route to go.

(3) I would *really* like to have 2--maybe 3--browsers to list. There's
zero reason to make users think there's only one option when there's a
couple of valid ones.

-Chad
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Re: Recommending Firefox to users using legacy browsers?

Kaartic Sivaraam
In reply to this post by Legoktm
On Sat, 02 Sep 2017 02:06:09 +0000, Chad<[hidden email]>  wrote,
> (3) I would*really*  like to have 2--maybe 3--browsers to list. There's
> zero reason to make users think there's only one option when there's a
> couple of valid ones.

I would love that too. Imagine that we do take the step and start promoting Firefox
"alone" to legacy users. I "suspect" the first reaction of a user who doesn't
take the time to realise we're promoting an open-source movement while trying to
help them get rid of their legacy browser to be,

    "I thought Wikipedia doesn't show ads/promotions. Seems they have
    changed their motive of "Not showing ads for revenue"! May be they'll
    be showing more ads in the future. ARRRGGHHH!"

That might be a little over boasted, though! In order to avoid such reactions how about
recommending Firefox in the pop-up/central notice and linking to a list of other good
browsers to show we aren't promoting /advertising browsers. For the list of other browsers
we could link to https://browsehappy.com

To address this,

On Fri Sep 1 13:55:19 UTC 2017, Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]> wrote,
> -1 to linking any resource which is not itself free software,
> translatable with free software and managed by a privacy-compliant org.

I guess browsehappy is at least open source.

https://github.com/WordPress/browsehappy


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