Refusing CRB check

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Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
[cross-posting to meta talk page]

I've just seen that AndrewRT has refused a CRB check. I think it's
probably simplest not to disqualify him from the election and let
people vote for him if they choose (if there's a consensus to
disqualify him he won't win the election, so we might as well wait and
see), however if the majority of the board decides in favour of CRB
checks (at whatever time that decision is made - I'd suggest sooner
rather than later if AndrewRT is elected) his board membership would
be terminated. Anyone disagree?

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Sarah McCulloch
If AndrewRT intends to undertake a board role that does not require him to need a CRB check, I fail to see why he should be thrown off if he does not have one.

2008/9/10 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
[cross-posting to meta talk page]

I've just seen that AndrewRT has refused a CRB check. I think it's
probably simplest not to disqualify him from the election and let
people vote for him if they choose (if there's a consensus to
disqualify him he won't win the election, so we might as well wait and
see), however if the majority of the board decides in favour of CRB
checks (at whatever time that decision is made - I'd suggest sooner
rather than later if AndrewRT is elected) his board membership would
be terminated. Anyone disagree?

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Re: Refusing CRB check

joseph seddon
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
> I've just seen that AndrewRT has refused a CRB check. I think it's
> probably simplest not to disqualify him from the election and let
> people vote for him if they choose (if there's a consensus to
> disqualify him he won't win the election, so we might as well wait and
> see), however if the majority of the board decides in favour of CRB
> checks (at whatever time that decision is made - I'd suggest sooner
> rather than later if AndrewRT is elected) his board membership would
> be terminated. Anyone disagree?

Unfortunately I have to. I will attempt to explain my reason as best i can.
Firstly, those members on the board, even on the interim board will be
handling membership forms/details. There will be members joining,of a young
age and I would not be happy with someone who hadn't had a check preformed
on them, handling such information. Secondly, it would create more work to
have to change the details of the director mid way through the process.
We all saw the issues with trying to get details updated. I would rather have this
cleared up now before the election than when we are trying to push through
incorporation.


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
> Unfortunately I have to. I will attempt to explain my reason as best i can.
> Firstly, those members on the board, even on the interim board will be
> handling membership forms/details. There will be members joining,of a young
> age and I would not be happy with someone who hadn't had a check preformed
> on them, handling such information.

I agree, but I think the board can make that decision (really, it's
their decision at the end of the day anyway, anything we decide now is
pretty much advisory - the board are the ones liable if it all goes
wrong, so they have to be able to make the decisions as they see fit).

> Secondly, it would create more work to
> have to change the details of the director mid way through the process.
> We all saw the issues with trying to get details updated. I would rather
> have this
> cleared up now before the election than when we are trying to push through
> incorporation.

That's why I said they should make the decision sooner rather than
later, ie. before incorporation. That way they can just take person
number 6 and carry on. I really don't see the point in trying to
decide now because the election will decide for us (the only way he
could win is if people don't think it matters, in which case we won't
get a consensus to disqualify him).

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Sarah McCulloch
2008/9/10 Sarah McCulloch <[hidden email]>:
> If AndrewRT intends to undertake a board role that does not require him to
> need a CRB check, I fail to see why he should be thrown off if he does not
> have one.

Membership applications will be discussed at board meetings with the
whole board, he has no choice but to do tasks which require a CRB
check.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Sarah McCulloch
Membership applications will be discussed at a meeting of the full board? Is an inqusition and thorough background check really required? Is there some kind of criteria the board will see it to impose on guarantor members and ensure that everyone comes up to scratch, with a culling program for those who fail to pass muster? Come on.

2008/9/10 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
2008/9/10 Sarah McCulloch <[hidden email]>:
> If AndrewRT intends to undertake a board role that does not require him to
> need a CRB check, I fail to see why he should be thrown off if he does not
> have one.

Membership applications will be discussed at board meetings with the
whole board, he has no choice but to do tasks which require a CRB
check.

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I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

-WB Yeats


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 01:08 +0100, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2008/9/10 Sarah McCulloch <[hidden email]>:
> > If AndrewRT intends to undertake a board role that does not require him to
> > need a CRB check, I fail to see why he should be thrown off if he does not
> > have one.
>
> Membership applications will be discussed at board meetings with the
> whole board, he has no choice but to do tasks which require a CRB
> check.

Well, those doesn't "required" a CRB check. It's a question of whether
the board or the community decide that it would be in its best interest
to obtain one.

KTC

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Sarah McCulloch
2008/9/10 Sarah McCulloch <[hidden email]>:
> Membership applications will be discussed at a meeting of the full board? Is
> an inqusition and thorough background check really required? Is there some
> kind of criteria the board will see it to impose on guarantor members and
> ensure that everyone comes up to scratch, with a culling program for those
> who fail to pass muster? Come on.

It should be pretty much a formality in almost all cases, but it's a
formality that still has to be done (the board could delegate it to a
committee of board members, but I don't see why they should have to go
to that hassle - it would require separate meetings, notifications,
minutes, etc.). Even in spite of that, any board member is going to
have access to the records and could get the details whether they were
in the meeting where they were discussed or not.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Katie Chan
> Well, those doesn't "required" a CRB check. It's a question of whether
> the board or the community decide that it would be in its best interest
> to obtain one.

I agree the final decision is the board's (possibly with the advice of
their solicitor and the charities commission), I believe that's what I
said in my first email...

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Andrew Cates-5
Friends,

If I may add a comment on this? I think you are in danger of breaking
the law in requesting a CRB from a candidate.

As far as I know an employer, organisation or licensing authority can
only ask someone to apply for a CRB check if they are or will be
working in a position listed in the Exceptions Order to Rehabilitation
of Offenders Act 1974. I think elected volunteers have the same
protection in law as paid employees, and being nosey isn't a valid
reason in law.

I am the CEO of a UK children's charity, and have been on the board of
a total of ten companies. I have also been a CEO of seven or eight
companies with large retail databases.  I have never been asked for a
CRB. Some of the charity's employees get CRBs (ones who are put in
charge of children) but these things are not generally used for this
kind of role. Our trustees are not CRBed.

Andrew Cates (aka BozMo)

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Well, those doesn't "required" a CRB check. It's a question of whether
>> the board or the community decide that it would be in its best interest
>> to obtain one.
>
> I agree the final decision is the board's (possibly with the advice of
> their solicitor and the charities commission), I believe that's what I
> said in my first email...
>
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Re: Refusing CRB check

Ross Gardler


Andrew Cates wrote:
> Friends,
>
> If I may add a comment on this? I think you are in danger of breaking
> the law in requesting a CRB from a candidate.

I'm no lawyer, I can only speak from experience.

It was a requirement of the (public) funding of a social enterprise
working with children (in this case very young children) that all
volunteers *who came into direct contact with children* were CRB checked.

It was *not* a requirement for the board members to be CRB checked,
although the board agreed to implement a voluntary CRM checking scheme
for all volunteers.

Ross


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Andrew Cates-5
Ross,

That's right AFAIK but I think we should not view CRB's as a "nice to
have, so why not".

I am no lawyer either. But the law in the UK protects people who have
come out of prison against discrimination. For this reason CRB checks
are limited to people who need them for valid reasons, as listed. Some
organisations do take a very liberal view of what "in direct contact
with children" means and hope that they will win trial by tabloid if
they get caught (since ex-prisoners do not have much popular support).
But you should not regard CRBing everyone as being "safe, just in
case". That's misuse. Overuse of CRB is as dodgy underuse of CRB
checking.

In these circumstances I would say the correct route is to appoint the
board without CRB checks but get them to approve a CRB policy with
checking as necessary before people undertake activities requiring
them.

Andrew
===============
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Ross Gardler
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Andrew Cates wrote:
>> Friends,
>>
>> If I may add a comment on this? I think you are in danger of breaking
>> the law in requesting a CRB from a candidate.
>
> I'm no lawyer, I can only speak from experience.
>
> It was a requirement of the (public) funding of a social enterprise
> working with children (in this case very young children) that all
> volunteers *who came into direct contact with children* were CRB checked.
>
> It was *not* a requirement for the board members to be CRB checked,
> although the board agreed to implement a voluntary CRM checking scheme
> for all volunteers.
>
> Ross
>
>
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>

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton


http://www.crb.gov.uk/


Which level of CRB check? And what is the cost per person of those checks?

Gordo


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
At 10:33 +0100 10/9/08, Andrew Cates wrote:

>Ross,
>
>That's right AFAIK but I think we should not view CRB's as a "nice to
>have, so why not".
>
>I am no lawyer either. But the law in the UK protects people who have
>come out of prison against discrimination. For this reason CRB checks
>are limited to people who need them for valid reasons, as listed. Some
>organisations do take a very liberal view of what "in direct contact
>with children" means and hope that they will win trial by tabloid if
>they get caught (since ex-prisoners do not have much popular support).
>But you should not regard CRBing everyone as being "safe, just in
>case". That's misuse. Overuse of CRB is as dodgy underuse of CRB
>checking.
>
>In these circumstances I would say the correct route is to appoint the
>board without CRB checks but get them to approve a CRB policy with
>checking as necessary before people undertake activities requiring
>them.
>
>Andrew

I was CRB checked a few years for some freelance work I did with
homeless people. Working with directly children *and* vulnerable
people requires checks.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[hidden email]///

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Gordon Joly
At 11:10 +0100 10/9/08, Gordon Joly wrote:
>http://www.crb.gov.uk/
>
>
>Which level of CRB check? And what is the cost per person of those checks?
>
>Gordo

I see that this question has been answered in this thread already.

Gordo

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Ross Gardler
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
Andrew Cates wrote:
> That's right AFAIK but I think we should not view CRB's as a "nice to
> have, so why not".

Absolutely, I'm only providing what little information I have so that
people can decide what they want to do.

"safe by misuse" is an important point hence the *voluntary* nature of
the CRB checks. It meant that nobody was singled out as being different
in respect to CRB checks.

I should also state that the board felt it was important to keep any
requests not to have a CRB check private. Nobody (other than the board)
would have known if someone had refused.

Ross

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
> I am the CEO of a UK children's charity, and have been on the board of
> a total of ten companies. I have also been a CEO of seven or eight
> companies with large retail databases.  I have never been asked for a
> CRB. Some of the charity's employees get CRBs (ones who are put in
> charge of children) but these things are not generally used for this
> kind of role. Our trustees are not CRBed.

That surprises me "trustee of a children's charity" is explicitly
included in the list of people that should be (or, at least, can be)
CRBed. I would suggest that the board seek the advice of the charities
commission before making a final decision on CRBs.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Sarah McCulloch
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
I was CRB checked a year ago because I supported disabled students, which makes sense (even though I had the full on Enhanced check and all it does is check to see what the police have on you - Name changes and or careful law-breaking never turns up...). As I indicated before, CRB checking a bunch of bureaucrats seemed both expensive and time-wasting. If board members were going to take up going into schools and doing workshops, I could understand it, but the interim board seems to be dedicated to mostly form filling.

2008/9/10 Gordon Joly <[hidden email]>
I was CRB checked a few years for some freelance work I did with
homeless people. Working with directly children *and* vulnerable
people requires checks.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly@...///

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--
"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

-WB Yeats


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Re: Refusing CRB check

joseph seddon
Given that the board members will have access to the addresses of children under that age of 16, I feel that this is enough reason for CRB checks to be
undertaken.


Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:18:04 +0100
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Refusing CRB check

I was CRB checked a year ago because I supported disabled students, which makes sense (even though I had the full on Enhanced check and all it does is check to see what the police have on you - Name changes and or careful law-breaking never turns up...). As I indicated before, CRB checking a bunch of bureaucrats seemed both expensive and time-wasting. If board members were going to take up going into schools and doing workshops, I could understand it, but the interim board seems to be dedicated to mostly form filling.

2008/9/10 Gordon Joly <[hidden email]>
I was CRB checked a few years for some freelance work I did with
homeless people. Working with directly children *and* vulnerable
people requires checks.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly@...///

_______________________________________________



--
"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

-WB Yeats



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Re: Refusing CRB check

Michael Bimmler
In reply to this post by Sarah McCulloch
Indeed, if I may bring in a bit of a non-UK perspective: It sounds overbroad to me to subject everyone to a CRB check.
Instead, why wouldn't it be possible (and I think this idea was even brought up here already) to ask all the board members (and associated volunteers) to sign a policy that they will permit a CRB check once they actually do something together with children (e.g. workshops in schools).
Usually, it will be a rather small group that ends up actually *doing* this kind of things - I'm not really sure why the webmaster or the treasurer need a CRB check if they are never involved in school work.
Oh, and before this is pointed out in reply: Did someone check whether a CRB check is necessary just for handling addresses of children resp. for having access to them qua board member? I openly admit that I don't know UK law here, but this seems rather absurd to me - does anyone have sources on this?

Best wishes,
Michael

2008/9/10 Sarah McCulloch <[hidden email]>
I was CRB checked a year ago because I supported disabled students, which makes sense (even though I had the full on Enhanced check and all it does is check to see what the police have on you - Name changes and or careful law-breaking never turns up...). As I indicated before, CRB checking a bunch of bureaucrats seemed both expensive and time-wasting. If board members were going to take up going into schools and doing workshops, I could understand it, but the interim board seems to be dedicated to mostly form filling.

2008/9/10 Gordon Joly <[hidden email]>
I was CRB checked a few years for some freelance work I did with
homeless people. Working with directly children *and* vulnerable
people requires checks.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/////////
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
gordon.joly@...///

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--
"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

-WB Yeats


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