Refusing CRB check

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Re: Refusing CRB check

David Gerard-2
2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:

> Given that the board members will have access to the addresses of children
> under that age of 16, I feel that this is enough reason for CRB checks to be
> undertaken.


As Andrew points out, that may in fact be legally hazardous despite
being tabloid-friendly.


- d.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Chris Wood-7

If I may interject, I know that any person over the age of 16 should be subjected to a CRB check as they are classed as over the age of consent in the Uk although this may sound alot if you are working with children (minors) in the Uk you should really be subject to a CRB in case you are challened by someone. Schools usually ask if you have been checked. Whilst this may sound off topic I was wondering how one would go about being a member of the team but from a young persons point of view because I am 17. I would also like to help out with the legal side of it seen as I am studying this at college.


Chris  
----------------------------------------

> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:42:44 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Refusing CRB check
>
> 2008/9/10 joseph seddon :
>
>> Given that the board members will have access to the addresses of children
>> under that age of 16, I feel that this is enough reason for CRB checks to be
>> undertaken.
>
>
> As Andrew points out, that may in fact be legally hazardous despite
> being tabloid-friendly.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
> Whilst this may sound off topic I was wondering how one would go about being a member of the team but from a young persons point
> of view because I am 17. I would also like to help out with the legal side of it seen as I am studying this at college.

I don't believe there is anything to stop you being a guarantor
member, which would allow you to take part in AGMs and elect board
members. I expect the board will accept help and advice from wherever
it is offered. There is a limit to how useful legal advice is from
someone that isn't a qualified solicitor, though (btw, does anyone
know a good solicitor with experience in charity law? We'll need
one.).

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Ross Gardler


Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Whilst this may sound off topic I was wondering how one would go about being a member of the team but from a young persons point
>> of view because I am 17. I would also like to help out with the legal side of it seen as I am studying this at college.
>
> I don't believe there is anything to stop you being a guarantor
> member, which would allow you to take part in AGMs and elect board
> members. I expect the board will accept help and advice from wherever
> it is offered.

Chris,

Whilst amateur legal advice is not useful for the end game, it can help
in moving things forward in the short term. It can also reduce the costs
of paid for legal advice.

So, Chris, I'd recommend you look for open questions like the CRB issue.
If you are able to just drop a note to the list saying you're looking
into it and will respond in approx. x days. The discussion can then be
put on hold for a while and restarted when you are in a position to make
a recommendation to be considered by the board. Having it backed by
evidence rather than anecdotal experience that the rest of us are
presenting will be of immense value when the board take full legal advice.

For example, a clear summary of what is and is not legally required with
respect to CRB checks, with references to the source materials for this
information would save someone else a great deal of time.

Thanks,
Ross

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
being checked).

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Chris Wood-7
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton

I can try and find a solicitor which works nearer to Oxford to because I know a few that are around and about. I am also a great web programmer if any help is needed in that department. I have great knowledge of C++ and Visual basic also I am a fluent assembly language script writer.

Chris
----------------------------------------

> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:56:08 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Refusing CRB check
>
>> Whilst this may sound off topic I was wondering how one would go about being a member of the team but from a young persons point
>> of view because I am 17. I would also like to help out with the legal side of it seen as I am studying this at college.
>
> I don't believe there is anything to stop you being a guarantor
> member, which would allow you to take part in AGMs and elect board
> members. I expect the board will accept help and advice from wherever
> it is offered. There is a limit to how useful legal advice is from
> someone that isn't a qualified solicitor, though (btw, does anyone
> know a good solicitor with experience in charity law? We'll need
> one.).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l

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Re: Refusing CRB check

joseph seddon
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
> I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
> probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
> the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
> for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
> trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
> and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
> going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
> of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
> saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
> being checked).

I have just come off the phone with CRB. They said that it is recommended
in legislation (they didnt say what one though) that adults handling the
details of children have checks done on them, however it is left to the
discretion of the organisation they work for. All in all, it is down to the board.
 


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:

>> I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
>> probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
>> the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
>> for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
>> trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
>> and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
>> going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
>> of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
>> saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
>> being checked).
>
> I have just come off the phone with CRB. They said that it is recommended
> in legislation (they didnt say what one though) that adults handling the
> details of children have checks done on them, however it is left to the
> discretion of the organisation they work for. All in all, it is down to the
> board.

I had a feeling the woman from the charities commission wasn't
entirely sure about what she was saying... Perhaps this is a matter
for the board to talk to their solicitor about.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Andrew Cates-5
Out of interest, are you sure the "CRB" wasn't a third party helpline
selling CRBs? Personally I would not rely on advice from any
government agency over the phone, but if you send a written request
the written answer is quite likely to be reliable.

Anyway for reference as recently as three weeks ago there was another
report of people abusing these checks, see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7548467.stm but there are plenty of
better summaries around. Perhaps Nacros would offer us free advice
since they seem to be expert at it.

It isn't a big deal unless we have a good candidate objecting on principle.

Andrew
=========================================
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:
>>> I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
>>> probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
>>> the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
>>> for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
>>> trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
>>> and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
>>> going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
>>> of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
>>> saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
>>> being checked).
>>
>> I have just come off the phone with CRB. They said that it is recommended
>> in legislation (they didnt say what one though) that adults handling the
>> details of children have checks done on them, however it is left to the
>> discretion of the organisation they work for. All in all, it is down to the
>> board.
>
> I had a feeling the woman from the charities commission wasn't
> entirely sure about what she was saying... Perhaps this is a matter
> for the board to talk to their solicitor about.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
> It isn't a big deal unless we have a good candidate objecting on principle.

We have a candidate objecting on principle. I make no judgement at
this time on whether they are a good candidate or not.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
2008/9/10 Andrew Cates <[hidden email]>:

> Anyway for reference as recently as three weeks ago there was another
> report of people abusing these checks, see:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7548467.stm but there are plenty of
> better summaries around. Perhaps Nacros would offer us free advice
> since they seem to be expert at it.


CRB requirements are becoming a contentious issue at present - the
required and suggested checks were written to be
tabloid-outrage-friendly, but could take in about a quarter of the
population if carried out to their fullest extent. So I strongly
suggest making sure you get this one exactly right.


- d.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
2008/9/10 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:

> I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
> probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
> the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
> for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
> trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
> and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
> going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
> of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
> saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
> being checked).

This sounds sensible, and is pretty much what I was about to recommend :-)

Bear in mind that we're not talking about people who will come into
contact with children; we're not talking about people whose job is to
handle the details of children; we're talking about a situation where
people will occasionally handle a small amount of personal information
which *may* include the details of a small number of children.

If nothing else, the CRB checks are expensive, time consuming - people
often work for several months before their checks clear! -  and also
require additional infrastructure to handle (what do you *do* with the
CRB disclosures once you've got them?). It makes sense to leave them
until they turn out to be critical, just in terms of getting the
organisation up and running quickly and simply and cheaply.

[I speak as someone with a CRB clearance, incidentally, but not an "on
spec" one...]

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- Andrew Gray
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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
> If nothing else, the CRB checks are expensive

Where have you got that idea? They're free for volunteers (the agent
you get them through may charge a small fee, but I think we can even
get that for free if we shop around).

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Chris Wood-7
In reply to this post by Andrew Gray
Just so people know it can take up to 6 months prior to having your CRB check done to clear and you have the certificate. I know that my fiancee had to have one done back in June for her new course that she was doing at college and she still hasnt recieved the certificate to say that she has been cleared although the CRB has been run.
 
Chris

> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:56:29 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Refusing CRB check
>
> 2008/9/10 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:
> > I just got off the phone with the charities commission (should
> > probably have done that sooner and saved all this discussion!), and
> > the woman I spoke to didn't think CRB checks would be required just
> > for handling the details of children, they'd only be required if the
> > trustees are actually going to be in contact with the children (AGMs
> > and things don't count, since those are all in groups). Anyone that is
> > going to be going into schools, or similar, would need to be checked,
> > of course. She did recommend that the charity have a specific policy
> > saying that trustees wouldn't have any contract with children (without
> > being checked).
>
> This sounds sensible, and is pretty much what I was about to recommend :-)
>
> Bear in mind that we're not talking about people who will come into
> contact with children; we're not talking about people whose job is to
> handle the details of children; we're talking about a situation where
> people will occasionally handle a small amount of personal information
> which *may* include the details of a small number of children.
>
> If nothing else, the CRB checks are expensive, time consuming - people
> often work for several months before their checks clear! - and also
> require additional infrastructure to handle (what do you *do* with the
> CRB disclosures once you've got them?). It makes sense to leave them
> until they turn out to be critical, just in terms of getting the
> organisation up and running quickly and simply and cheaply.
>
> [I speak as someone with a CRB clearance, incidentally, but not an "on
> spec" one...]
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l



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Re: Refusing CRB check

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
I don't have the time to reply to the posts today on this issue, but
I'll just point out the current wording (perhaps can be better worded)
is that the candidates are willing to undergo CRB (if the board
determine [possibly with official legal / CC advice]) that it wises its
members to undergo such checks. It does not state that the members will
definitely go through CRB. It also does not state under what cases a
member will be disqualified as a result from those checks. (i.e. petty
crime? murder? ...)

KTC

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Re: Refusing CRB check

joseph seddon

> It also does not state under what cases a
> member will be disqualified as a result from those checks. (i.e. petty
> crime? murder? ...)
>
 
I believe the two main issues would be fraud of any kind, and also if on the
violent and sex offenders register.


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Re: Refusing CRB check

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
2008/9/10 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:
>> If nothing else, the CRB checks are expensive
>
> Where have you got that idea? They're free for volunteers (the agent
> you get them through may charge a small fee, but I think we can even
> get that for free if we shop around).

I'm surprised by this - I looked into getting one for someone a year
or two back and kept seeing fees on the order of £70. I hadn't
realised the volunteer distinction was made - it may be a more recent
thing.

Good to know, though.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

geni
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:
>
>> It also does not state under what cases a
>> member will be disqualified as a result from those checks. (i.e. petty
>> crime? murder? ...)
>>
>
> I believe the two main issues would be fraud of any kind,

I find it highly questionable if that would be legal.


>and also if on the
> violent and sex offenders register.

That might be legal if you could show  that they were working with
children or vulnerable people. And no shut in computer nerds are not
considered vulnerable.



--
geni

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:
>
>> It also does not state under what cases a
>> member will be disqualified as a result from those checks. (i.e. petty
>> crime? murder? ...)
>>
>
> I believe the two main issues would be fraud of any kind, and also if on the
> violent and sex offenders register.

I think fraud would disqualify you from serving on any board by law
(if it was recent enough), so it's just the last two that are
relevant, I expect.

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Re: Refusing CRB check

Theresa Knott
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
2008/9/10 joseph seddon <[hidden email]>:
> Given that the board members will have access to the addresses of children
> under that age of 16, I feel that this is enough reason for CRB checks to be
> undertaken.

I disagree, children under 16 live with their parents after all. CRB
is overkill.

Theresa

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