Refusing CRB check

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Re: Privacy ages of directors, subsidiarity and registered charities

Andrew Gray
2008/9/11 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>:

> Why not? http://www.bl.uk/services/reading/conditions.html gives some
> (perfectly reasonable) conditions on copying, but as long as we follow
> them, there's should be no problem.

It only provides half the restrictions - it prohibits any copying not
done on their equipment and not in accordance with the posted terms. I
suspect you'll find that those posted terms may not work very
efficiently for bulk copying...

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Re: Privacy ages of directors, subsidiarity and registered charities

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by Andrew Cates-5
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Andrew Cates <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hmm, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Library#Legal_deposit_library
> I am not sure the British Library has more and access is harder than
> at Cambridge.
>
> On quality I did images of this quality
> http://www.john-leech-archive.org.uk/sample.htm from a book with a
> good digital camera. Photocopies are generally not allow on bound
> books. A camera with a good lens is better in my view

The UL has an (excellent) imaging service -- they photocopied me
several hundred pages of my set texts last year.  They do a scanning
service, but they appear to claim copyright on the scans.

See http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/index.html and
especially http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/reproductionrights.html

I don't know if this claim of copyright is valid...

--
Sam
PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key

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Re: Privacy ages of directors, subsidiarity and registered charities

Andrew Cates-5
Only for the scans which they do themselves if at all but you cannot
blame them for trying.

Since you can take pretty much everything out (8 items at a time for
10 weeks) this may be inconvenient (if they don't let you photograph
in place) but no worse than inconvenient. I haven't tried copying in
the library itself personally.

Andrew


On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Sam Korn <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Andrew Cates <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hmm, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_University_Library#Legal_deposit_library
>> I am not sure the British Library has more and access is harder than
>> at Cambridge.
>>
>> On quality I did images of this quality
>> http://www.john-leech-archive.org.uk/sample.htm from a book with a
>> good digital camera. Photocopies are generally not allow on bound
>> books. A camera with a good lens is better in my view
>
> The UL has an (excellent) imaging service -- they photocopied me
> several hundred pages of my set texts last year.  They do a scanning
> service, but they appear to claim copyright on the scans.
>
> See http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/index.html and
> especially http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/imagingservices/reproductionrights.html
>
> I don't know if this claim of copyright is valid...
>
> --
> Sam
> PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>

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Re: Privacy ages of directors, subsidiarity and registered charities

Sam Korn
On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Andrew Cates <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Only for the scans which they do themselves if at all but you cannot
> blame them for trying.
>
> Since you can take pretty much everything out (8 items at a time for
> 10 weeks) this may be inconvenient (if they don't let you photograph
> in place) but no worse than inconvenient. I haven't tried copying in
> the library itself personally.

/you/ can... ;-)

I know in US law a reproduction that attempts to be faithful to the
original is ineligible for new copyright but I have a feeling that
this is different in UK law.

--
Sam
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Re: Privacy ages of directors, subsidiarity and registered charities

geni
2008/9/11 Sam Korn <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 7:47 PM, Andrew Cates <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Only for the scans which they do themselves if at all but you cannot
>> blame them for trying.
>>
>> Since you can take pretty much everything out (8 items at a time for
>> 10 weeks) this may be inconvenient (if they don't let you photograph
>> in place) but no worse than inconvenient. I haven't tried copying in
>> the library itself personally.
>
> /you/ can... ;-)
>
> I know in US law a reproduction that attempts to be faithful to the
> original is ineligible for new copyright but I have a feeling that
> this is different in UK law.
>


It is.

This was a discussion I was planning to have post elections. But in
summery the bigger something is the more problematical there copying
policies are for individuals and using third party copying services
tends to be expensive and problematical (I have a lovely set of emails
somewhere from a librarian totally failing to get CC-BY-SA). Getting
something out of your local records office may be fairly easy, take
along a camera and they may not complain too much. Getting stuff out
of the imperial war museum collection on the other hand is more of a
challenge.


--
geni

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Re: Board Of Directors

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Alison M. Wheeler
At 12:17 +0100 11/9/08, Alison Wheeler wrote:

>On Thu, September 11, 2008 12:02, joseph seddon wrote:
>>  There may be issues at the beginning with getting a bank account. Given
>>  you are under 18 you will have no credit history.
>>  For a bank that is a bad thing.
>
>This. We found issues including that one director lived at home so had no
>bills, etc. in his name. It is a craziness of the UK system that in order
>to be considered a "good credit risk" you need to owe money. Owing nobody
>money and having no bills is seen as a bad risk! I would *very* strongly
>recommend that the signatories to the Memorandum and Articles are:
>
>* over 18
>* have not moved home in the last three years
>* preferably not in private rented housing
>* have never had court judgements against them (CCJ, Bankruptcy, etc) no
>matter how long ago they were cleared and (supposedly) wiped from the
>record
>* in full-time employment
>* have a selection of bills in their name
>* have a full UK passport
>* Be a British national
>
>This may sound excessive (it does to me) but these are what banks now work
>on for 'credit scoring' which is all automated rather than the bank
>manager using some common sense.
>
>Alison
>





There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!

Gordo

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Re: Board Of Directors

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
At 13:17 +0000 11/9/08, joseph seddon wrote:

>  > >> Alison I have just spoken to my next door neighbours daughter
>who works in a bank and >she says that there are special exceptions.
>>  >
>>  > Problem is triggering them. In most cases you need some kind of hold
>>  > over the bank such as having a large existing deposit you can threaten
>>  > to withdraw. For something like WMUK 2.0 saying no is the easy option
>>  > so they are going to do that unless you are a complete walk through in
>>  > terms of meeting requirements.
>>
>>  It strikes me that the first and most pressing objective of the board
>>  should be to obtain charitable status, for which, as we have seen so
>>  clearly, a bank account is necessary. Accepting directors aged under
>>  18 (and therefore without credit ratings) seems likely to place
>>  additional obstacles in the path towards charitable status.
>>
>>  I agree that having directors of 16 or 17 would be a "nice to have".
>>  I don't think it's important enough to compromise the most important
>>  aim of the project.
>>
>
>I would have to agree with Sam Korn. What i would suggest is this. Firstly
>have people over 18 year olds, and that meet all requirements get the bank
>account. Then after everything is dealt with, we can then look towards
>having 16 and 17 year old directors in the future. I do feel that it
>is in the best
>interests of WMUK not to have 16/17 year old directors at this time. We have
>enough problems to deal with at this moment in time as an
>unfortunate result of
>the way UK banking works, we don't need to add to those difficulties. I hope
>you understand this :)
>
>Seddon
>


Do all board directors have to be signatories to the bank account?

I thought that the standard "two from three" signatories was all that
was required...

Gordo

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Re: Board Of Directors

Owen Blacker
In reply to this post by joseph seddon
I was just about to say the exact same thing.

I'm a director of a non-profit, trustee of a registered charity and a
signatory to the bank account me a third group. In none of these
organisations is every board member a signatory to the bank account.

It's simply not a problem for WMUK to have directors under 18, they
just won't necessarily be able to be signatories...

On 9/12/08, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At 13:17 +0000 11/9/08, joseph seddon wrote:
>>  > >> Alison I have just spoken to my next door neighbours daughter
>>who works in a bank and >she says that there are special exceptions.
>>>  >
>>>  > Problem is triggering them. In most cases you need some kind of hold
>>>  > over the bank such as having a large existing deposit you can threaten
>>>  > to withdraw. For something like WMUK 2.0 saying no is the easy option
>>>  > so they are going to do that unless you are a complete walk through in
>>>  > terms of meeting requirements.
>>>
>>>  It strikes me that the first and most pressing objective of the board
>>>  should be to obtain charitable status, for which, as we have seen so
>>>  clearly, a bank account is necessary. Accepting directors aged under
>>>  18 (and therefore without credit ratings) seems likely to place
>>>  additional obstacles in the path towards charitable status.
>>>
>>>  I agree that having directors of 16 or 17 would be a "nice to have".
>>>  I don't think it's important enough to compromise the most important
>>>  aim of the project.
>>>
>>
>>I would have to agree with Sam Korn. What i would suggest is this. Firstly
>>have people over 18 year olds, and that meet all requirements get the bank
>>account. Then after everything is dealt with, we can then look towards
>>having 16 and 17 year old directors in the future. I do feel that it
>>is in the best
>>interests of WMUK not to have 16/17 year old directors at this time. We
>> have
>>enough problems to deal with at this moment in time as an
>>unfortunate result of
>>the way UK banking works, we don't need to add to those difficulties. I
>> hope
>>you understand this :)
>>
>>Seddon
>>
>
>
> Do all board directors have to be signatories to the bank account?
>
> I thought that the standard "two from three" signatories was all that
> was required...
>
> Gordo
>
> --
> "Think Feynman"/////////
> http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> [hidden email]///
>
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Re: Board Of Directors

Gordon Joly


Alison has confirmed that all directors' details were submitted to
the bank, not just the signatories.

Gordo




At 13:40 +0100 12/9/08, Owen Blacker wrote:

>I was just about to say the exact same thing.
>
>I'm a director of a non-profit, trustee of a registered charity and a
>signatory to the bank account me a third group. In none of these
>organisations is every board member a signatory to the bank account.
>
>It's simply not a problem for WMUK to have directors under 18, they
>just won't necessarily be able to be signatories...
>
>On 9/12/08, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  At 13:17 +0000 11/9/08, joseph seddon wrote:
>>>   > >> Alison I have just spoken to my next door neighbours daughter
>>>who works in a bank and >she says that there are special exceptions.
>>>>   >
>>>>   > Problem is triggering them. In most cases you need some kind of hold
>>>>   > over the bank such as having a large existing deposit you can threaten
>>>>   > to withdraw. For something like WMUK 2.0 saying no is the easy option
>>>>   > so they are going to do that unless you are a complete walk through in
>>>>   > terms of meeting requirements.
>>>>
>>>>   It strikes me that the first and most pressing objective of the board
>>>>   should be to obtain charitable status, for which, as we have seen so
>>>>   clearly, a bank account is necessary. Accepting directors aged under
>>>>   18 (and therefore without credit ratings) seems likely to place
>>>>   additional obstacles in the path towards charitable status.
>>>>
>>>>   I agree that having directors of 16 or 17 would be a "nice to have".
>>>>   I don't think it's important enough to compromise the most important
>>>>   aim of the project.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I would have to agree with Sam Korn. What i would suggest is this. Firstly
>>>have people over 18 year olds, and that meet all requirements get the bank
>>>account. Then after everything is dealt with, we can then look towards
>>>having 16 and 17 year old directors in the future. I do feel that it
>>>is in the best
>>>interests of WMUK not to have 16/17 year old directors at this time. We
>>>  have
>>>enough problems to deal with at this moment in time as an
>>>unfortunate result of
>>>the way UK banking works, we don't need to add to those difficulties. I
>>>  hope
>>>you understand this :)
>>>
>>>Seddon
>>>
>>
>>
>>  Do all board directors have to be signatories to the bank account?
>>
>>  I thought that the standard "two from three" signatories was all that
>>  was required...
>>
>>  Gordo
>>
>>  --
>>  "Think Feynman"/////////
>>  http://pobox.com/~gordo/
>>  [hidden email]///
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  Wikimedia UK mailing list
>>  [hidden email]
>>  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK
>>  http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
>>
>
>--
>Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
>--
>Owen Blacker, London GB
>Say no to ID cards: www.no2id.net
>Get your mits off my bits: www.openrightsgroup.org
>Help us crowdsourcing video: www.theyworkforyou.com/video
>--
>Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
>  safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety  -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikimedia UK mailing list
>[hidden email]
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Re: Board Of Directors

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Alison M. Wheeler
> There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!

How did that happen? Did someone not have an up-to-date address? If
people don't know they have terrible credit then we could have a
problem!

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Re: Board Of Directors

Gordon Joly
At 18:25 +0100 12/9/08, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>  > There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!
>
>How did that happen? Did someone not have an up-to-date address? If
>people don't know they have terrible credit then we could have a
>problem!
>
>_______________

Sorry, to be clear. In general, people can have a CCJ and not know about it.

This did not happen with WER Ltd, AFAIK. I was simply say that it can happen.

Gordo

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Re: Board Of Directors

Alison M. Wheeler
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On Fri, September 12, 2008 18:25, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!
>
> How did that happen? Did someone not have an up-to-date address? If
> people don't know they have terrible credit then we could have a
> problem!

So far as I am aware this was not the case with anyone who has been
involved with WER at any time. I think Gordo (OP) was just making the
point that as individuals we very little control over what the credit
reference agencies think they know about us nowadays (and can't easily
argue against it, if we do find out)

Alison


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Re: Board Of Directors

Thomas Dalton
2008/9/13 Alison Wheeler <[hidden email]>:

> On Fri, September 12, 2008 18:25, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>>> There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!
>>
>> How did that happen? Did someone not have an up-to-date address? If
>> people don't know they have terrible credit then we could have a
>> problem!
>
> So far as I am aware this was not the case with anyone who has been
> involved with WER at any time. I think Gordo (OP) was just making the
> point that as individuals we very little control over what the credit
> reference agencies think they know about us nowadays (and can't easily
> argue against it, if we do find out)

Ah, yes, that's another risk - not having a CCJ but the banks thinking
you have. Anyway, it shouldn't be an issue - most of the banks I spoke
to said they don't credit check signatories. You must have been
unlucky with Co-op!

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Re: Board Of Directors

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Alison M. Wheeler
At 13:56 +0100 13/9/08, Alison Wheeler wrote:

>On Fri, September 12, 2008 18:25, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>  >> There is also the case of having a CCJ and not knowing about it!
>>
>>  How did that happen? Did someone not have an up-to-date address? If
>>  people don't know they have terrible credit then we could have a
>>  problem!
>
>So far as I am aware this was not the case with anyone who has been
>involved with WER at any time. I think Gordo (OP) was just making the
>point that as individuals we very little control over what the credit
>reference agencies think they know about us nowadays (and can't easily
>argue against it, if we do find out)
>
>Alison
>

Yes, exactly.

In my own example, three of us applied, one was found credit
unworthy, but the person who I telephoned said that she could not
tell me who it was, data protection she said. So, I had to guess
which of the other two applicants was the problem.

Gordo

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