Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

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Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

とある白い猫
Hi all,

It is proposed that Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language)
wikipedia (ku.wikipedia) be renamed to Kurmanji wikipedia (kmr.wikipedia) as
currently ku.wikipedia predominantly hosts a single dialect which is
Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish. Local community oppose the proposal so far.

I'd like to explain some background behind the proposal. Kurdish wikipedia
had been hosting multiple dialects since its creation. The three main
dialects (in terms of article count) have been Zazaki (1.5–2.5 million
speakers), Sorani (5 million speakers) and Kurmanji (9 million speakers).
Zazaki is only mentioned here because it was hosted by Kurdish wikipedia at
some point. Zazaki's language family is controversial as some sources put it
as a dialect of Kurdish while others disagree with this. While details
surrounding the linguistic properties are irrelevant for this proposal,
the controversy itself is relevant.

Kurdish as a language has no standard from and the ISO considers ku (kur) to
be a language code for a macro-language for multiple dialects. Furthermore
said dialects are mutually unintelligible (per first Google hit:
http://www.thefellowship.info/Missions/Global-Missions/People-Groups/Kurds)
with multiple different types of scripts such as Sorani using rtl Arabic
script and Kurmanji using ltr latin script and are different in both grammar
and vocabulary. In addition Sorani is the only dialect used officially in
north of Iraq by the Kurdistan Regional Government and is not the most
common dialect of Kurdish (according to Wikipedia anyways).

   - Zazaki dialect separated from Kurdish Wikipedia on 5 January 2007 with
   http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Zazaki
and
   had been steadily having an increase in article count and will seemingly
   overtake ku.wikipedia soon enough.
   - Sorani dialect has seperated from Kurdish wikipedia on 14 November
   2010 with
   http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kurdish_(Sorani)
and
   has steady contribution despite being a very recently created wiki.
   - Minor dialects (in terms of article count) hosted by Kurdish wikipedia
   already have their relevant incubator pages with Southern Kurdish created
   on 29 October 2009 (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/sdh)
   and Kirmanjki created on 30 July 2008 (
   http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kiu).

Currently ku.wikipedia has very few tagged articles in non-Kurmanji
dialects:

   -
   http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Soran%C3%AE6
Sorani uses - There is a Sorani wikipedia
   -
   http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Bi_kurdiya_ba%C5%9F%C3%BBr14
Southern Kurdish uses - There is an incubator entry for Southern
Kurdish
   -
   http://ku.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Zazak%C3%AE&limit=6565
Zazaki uses - There is a Zazaki wikipedia

By keeping ku.wikipedia with its ku language code we are:

   - Implying Kurmanji as the "official" dialect of Kurdish with the Kurdish
   macro-language code
   - Implying Sorani as the lesser dialect when in fact it is the only
   official one.
   - Implying Zazaki to be a Kurdish dialect which Zazaki community
   opposes fiercely as evident in closed language proposal of Zazaki of 2007.
   - Confusing the reader whom visits ku.wikipedia only to find Kurdish
   articles they cannot read unless they use Kurmanji dialect (only half of
   Kurdish speakers know Kurmanji if you add up the numbers for all other
   dialects).
   - I'd like to highlight one remark from Sorani wiki proposal page: "Even
   though both "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are subgroups (accent) of Kurdish
   language, they can cause of misunderstanding and misinterpretation for
   people who speak the language with these accents to each other. This can
   happen in different situations. For instance during regular conversations,
   or reading/understanding complex and professional contents.In general,
   "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are not useful to each other since misinterpretation
   is so high while they are used in different places. --Marmzok 11 April 2009"
   - This is the problem the reader deals on an article by article basis unless
   they know the existence of Sorani wikipedia.

Relevant meta discussion is here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Kurdish_2_Wikipedia

Might I remind that "The committee does not consider political differences,
since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free,
unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information
from the viewpoint of individual political communities." (
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy#Requisites).
Therefore political arguments including the ones in the meta discussion are
irrelevant.

  - とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
The argument for or against using ku.wikipedia.org are interesting but at
this time rather irrelevant.There is a long list of pending name changes
waiting to happen. Also we are quite happy to keep codes that are in fact
representing macro languages  like ar or Arabic.
Thanks,
     GerardM

2011/9/16 とある白い猫 <[hidden email]>

> Hi all,
>
> It is proposed that Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language
> )
> wikipedia (ku.wikipedia) be renamed to Kurmanji wikipedia (kmr.wikipedia)
> as
> currently ku.wikipedia predominantly hosts a single dialect which is
> Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish. Local community oppose the proposal so far.
>
> I'd like to explain some background behind the proposal. Kurdish wikipedia
> had been hosting multiple dialects since its creation. The three main
> dialects (in terms of article count) have been Zazaki (1.5–2.5 million
> speakers), Sorani (5 million speakers) and Kurmanji (9 million speakers).
> Zazaki is only mentioned here because it was hosted by Kurdish wikipedia at
> some point. Zazaki's language family is controversial as some sources put
> it
> as a dialect of Kurdish while others disagree with this. While details
> surrounding the linguistic properties are irrelevant for this proposal,
> the controversy itself is relevant.
>
> Kurdish as a language has no standard from and the ISO considers ku (kur)
> to
> be a language code for a macro-language for multiple dialects. Furthermore
> said dialects are mutually unintelligible (per first Google hit:
> http://www.thefellowship.info/Missions/Global-Missions/People-Groups/Kurds
> )
> with multiple different types of scripts such as Sorani using rtl Arabic
> script and Kurmanji using ltr latin script and are different in both
> grammar
> and vocabulary. In addition Sorani is the only dialect used officially in
> north of Iraq by the Kurdistan Regional Government and is not the most
> common dialect of Kurdish (according to Wikipedia anyways).
>
>   - Zazaki dialect separated from Kurdish Wikipedia on 5 January 2007 with
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Zazaki
> and
>   had been steadily having an increase in article count and will seemingly
>   overtake ku.wikipedia soon enough.
>   - Sorani dialect has seperated from Kurdish wikipedia on 14 November
>   2010 with
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kurdish_(Sorani)
> and
>   has steady contribution despite being a very recently created wiki.
>   - Minor dialects (in terms of article count) hosted by Kurdish wikipedia
>   already have their relevant incubator pages with Southern Kurdish created
>   on 29 October 2009 (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/sdh)
>   and Kirmanjki created on 30 July 2008 (
>   http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kiu).
>
> Currently ku.wikipedia has very few tagged articles in non-Kurmanji
> dialects:
>
>   -
>
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Soran%C3%AE6
> Sorani uses - There is a Sorani wikipedia
>   -
>
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Bi_kurdiya_ba%C5%9F%C3%BBr14
> Southern Kurdish uses - There is an incubator entry for Southern
> Kurdish
>   -
>
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Zazak%C3%AE&limit=6565
> Zazaki uses - There is a Zazaki wikipedia
>
> By keeping ku.wikipedia with its ku language code we are:
>
>   - Implying Kurmanji as the "official" dialect of Kurdish with the Kurdish
>   macro-language code
>   - Implying Sorani as the lesser dialect when in fact it is the only
>   official one.
>   - Implying Zazaki to be a Kurdish dialect which Zazaki community
>   opposes fiercely as evident in closed language proposal of Zazaki of
> 2007.
>   - Confusing the reader whom visits ku.wikipedia only to find Kurdish
>   articles they cannot read unless they use Kurmanji dialect (only half of
>   Kurdish speakers know Kurmanji if you add up the numbers for all other
>   dialects).
>   - I'd like to highlight one remark from Sorani wiki proposal page: "Even
>   though both "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are subgroups (accent) of Kurdish
>   language, they can cause of misunderstanding and misinterpretation for
>   people who speak the language with these accents to each other. This can
>   happen in different situations. For instance during regular
> conversations,
>   or reading/understanding complex and professional contents.In general,
>   "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are not useful to each other since
> misinterpretation
>   is so high while they are used in different places. --Marmzok 11 April
> 2009"
>   - This is the problem the reader deals on an article by article basis
> unless
>   they know the existence of Sorani wikipedia.
>
> Relevant meta discussion is here:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Kurdish_2_Wikipedia
>
> Might I remind that "The committee does not consider political differences,
> since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free,
> unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information
> from the viewpoint of individual political communities." (
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy#Requisites).
> Therefore political arguments including the ones in the meta discussion are
> irrelevant.
>
>  - とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
It's not irrelevant because if approved, it could be added to list of
pending name changes.

As far as codes representing macrolanguages, ku: is clearly a different
situation than ar.wp. Arabic is a group of languages with a single unifying
"macro" standard, which speakers of all Arabic languages learn in school.
Every speaker of any Arabic language - Iraqi, Egyptian, Lebanese, Moroccan,
etc. - will readily agree that Modern Standard Arabic is part of their
cultural and linguistic tradition. For this reason, the situation makes
sense.

This is decidedly not the case with ku. Unlike with ar.wp, there are 5
different languages with more or less equal status. There is no "Modern
Standard Kurdish". Imagine if Modern Standard Arabic didn't exist, and
Moroccan Arabic Wikipedia was housed at http://ar.wikipedia.org/ domain.
This would be unfair to other Arabic languages, would it not? Well, this is
the situation with Kurdish languages at the moment.

http://ku.wikipedia.org/ : interface and mainpage and almost all content in
Kurmanji language
http://ckb.wikipedia.org/ : interface and mainpage and all content in Sorani
language
http://diq.wikipedia.org/ : interface and mainpage and all content in Zazaki
language (which may or may not be a Kurdish language)
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/sdh : Southern Kurdish
http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kiu : Kirmanjki

Now, as White Cat already mentioned, it is simply not neutral for us to
imply, by housing the Kurmanji Wikipedia at the language code for "Kurdish",
that Kurmanji is the 'default' Kurdish, when this is not the case. In fact,
Sorani is the only variety of Kurdish that has official status in any
country, being the co-official language of Iraq. Also, in comparison with
your case (re:Arabic), Modern Standard Arabic (used at ar.wp) *is* the
'default' Arabic. So this is not a parallel situation and should not be
treated as such, and a technical backlog is no reason to ignore it.



2011/9/16 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> The argument for or against using ku.wikipedia.org are interesting but at
> this time rather irrelevant.There is a long list of pending name changes
> waiting to happen. Also we are quite happy to keep codes that are in fact
> representing macro languages  like ar or Arabic.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> 2011/9/16 とある白い猫 <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It is proposed that Kurdish (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language
> > )
> > wikipedia (ku.wikipedia) be renamed to Kurmanji wikipedia (kmr.wikipedia)
> > as
> > currently ku.wikipedia predominantly hosts a single dialect which is
> > Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish. Local community oppose the proposal so far.
> >
> > I'd like to explain some background behind the proposal. Kurdish
> wikipedia
> > had been hosting multiple dialects since its creation. The three main
> > dialects (in terms of article count) have been Zazaki (1.5-2.5 million
> > speakers), Sorani (5 million speakers) and Kurmanji (9 million speakers).
> > Zazaki is only mentioned here because it was hosted by Kurdish wikipedia
> at
> > some point. Zazaki's language family is controversial as some sources put
> > it
> > as a dialect of Kurdish while others disagree with this. While details
> > surrounding the linguistic properties are irrelevant for this proposal,
> > the controversy itself is relevant.
> >
> > Kurdish as a language has no standard from and the ISO considers ku (kur)
> > to
> > be a language code for a macro-language for multiple dialects.
> Furthermore
> > said dialects are mutually unintelligible (per first Google hit:
> >
> http://www.thefellowship.info/Missions/Global-Missions/People-Groups/Kurds
> > )
> > with multiple different types of scripts such as Sorani using rtl Arabic
> > script and Kurmanji using ltr latin script and are different in both
> > grammar
> > and vocabulary. In addition Sorani is the only dialect used officially in
> > north of Iraq by the Kurdistan Regional Government and is not the most
> > common dialect of Kurdish (according to Wikipedia anyways).
> >
> >   - Zazaki dialect separated from Kurdish Wikipedia on 5 January 2007
> with
> >
> >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Zazaki
> > and
> >   had been steadily having an increase in article count and will
> seemingly
> >   overtake ku.wikipedia soon enough.
> >   - Sorani dialect has seperated from Kurdish wikipedia on 14 November
> >   2010 with
> >
> >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kurdish_(Sorani)
> > and
> >   has steady contribution despite being a very recently created wiki.
> >   - Minor dialects (in terms of article count) hosted by Kurdish
> wikipedia
> >   already have their relevant incubator pages with Southern Kurdish
> created
> >   on 29 October 2009 (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/sdh)
> >   and Kirmanjki created on 30 July 2008 (
> >   http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kiu).
> >
> > Currently ku.wikipedia has very few tagged articles in non-Kurmanji
> > dialects:
> >
> >   -
> >
> >
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Soran%C3%AE6
> > Sorani uses - There is a Sorani wikipedia
> >   -
> >
> >
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Bi_kurdiya_ba%C5%9F%C3%BBr14
> > Southern Kurdish uses - There is an incubator entry for Southern
> > Kurdish
> >   -
> >
> >
> http://ku.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Zazak%C3%AE&limit=6565
> > Zazaki uses - There is a Zazaki wikipedia
> >
> > By keeping ku.wikipedia with its ku language code we are:
> >
> >   - Implying Kurmanji as the "official" dialect of Kurdish with the
> Kurdish
> >   macro-language code
> >   - Implying Sorani as the lesser dialect when in fact it is the only
> >   official one.
> >   - Implying Zazaki to be a Kurdish dialect which Zazaki community
> >   opposes fiercely as evident in closed language proposal of Zazaki of
> > 2007.
> >   - Confusing the reader whom visits ku.wikipedia only to find Kurdish
> >   articles they cannot read unless they use Kurmanji dialect (only half
> of
> >   Kurdish speakers know Kurmanji if you add up the numbers for all other
> >   dialects).
> >   - I'd like to highlight one remark from Sorani wiki proposal page:
> "Even
> >   though both "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are subgroups (accent) of Kurdish
> >   language, they can cause of misunderstanding and misinterpretation for
> >   people who speak the language with these accents to each other. This
> can
> >   happen in different situations. For instance during regular
> > conversations,
> >   or reading/understanding complex and professional contents.In general,
> >   "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are not useful to each other since
> > misinterpretation
> >   is so high while they are used in different places. --Marmzok 11 April
> > 2009"
> >   - This is the problem the reader deals on an article by article basis
> > unless
> >   they know the existence of Sorani wikipedia.
> >
> > Relevant meta discussion is here:
> >
> >
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Kurdish_2_Wikipedia
> >
> > Might I remind that "The committee does not consider political
> differences,
> > since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person
> free,
> > unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than
> information
> > from the viewpoint of individual political communities." (
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy#Requisites
> ).
> > Therefore political arguments including the ones in the meta discussion
> are
> > irrelevant.
> >
> >  - とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Milos Rancic-2
2011/9/16 M. Williamson <[hidden email]>:
> It's not irrelevant because if approved, it could be added to list of
> pending name changes.

The problem with the request is that it's not in the scope of Language
committee. Renaming "zh-min-nan" into "nan" is in the scope, as it
deals with simple code change. Renaming "als" into "<whatever>" is
also inside of the LangCom scope, as "als" is not proper code. At the
other side, stability requires that "fa" stays as "fa", as "fa" is
implicitly Farsi (besides being "macrolanguage" Persian).

However, requiring that one project doesn't include texts written in
other language and/or requiring that one project doesn't promote
itself as the home project for other languages which have their
Wikimedia projects -- that's the task for community and/or WMF; likely
for GRC. If we want to solve the problem properly. LangCom should be
consulted in this case, but it's not LangCom's which should deal with
dispute resolution among couple of communities.

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
I think there is a misunderstanding with regards to the scope of the
request. Both Kurmanji and Sorani Wikipedias actually currently are labelled
in interwiki links and bills itself sometimes as "Kurdish Wikipedia". These
are both local issues and this request is not asking them to stop that. The
only thing this request is for, is to change the language code of ku.wp. It
is improper to use a macrolanguage code for a Wikipedia that is not written
in a "unifying variety" (= fa.wp is written in official Farsi, ar.wp is
written in Modern Standard Arabic, zh.wp is written in standard written
Chinese, but there is no "Standard Kurdish" and ku.wp is just written in a
regular Kurdish variety which should be treated as equal to all other
Kurdish varieties). I am not talking about how the Wikipedia presents
itself, I am talking about how we present it, by housing it at the URI
http://ku.wikipedia.org/

In this case, I do not think anything local changed by langcom, the
foundation, or anybody else unless it creates legal problems. The only thing
this request covers is the code itself, which is currently wrong since "ku"
is a macrolanguage code but ku.wp is not truly a macrolanguage wiki.


2011/9/16 Milos Rancic <[hidden email]>

> 2011/9/16 M. Williamson <[hidden email]>:
> > It's not irrelevant because if approved, it could be added to list of
> > pending name changes.
>
> The problem with the request is that it's not in the scope of Language
> committee. Renaming "zh-min-nan" into "nan" is in the scope, as it
> deals with simple code change. Renaming "als" into "<whatever>" is
> also inside of the LangCom scope, as "als" is not proper code. At the
> other side, stability requires that "fa" stays as "fa", as "fa" is
> implicitly Farsi (besides being "macrolanguage" Persian).
>
> However, requiring that one project doesn't include texts written in
> other language and/or requiring that one project doesn't promote
> itself as the home project for other languages which have their
> Wikimedia projects -- that's the task for community and/or WMF; likely
> for GRC. If we want to solve the problem properly. LangCom should be
> consulted in this case, but it's not LangCom's which should deal with
> dispute resolution among couple of communities.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Milos Rancic-2
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 19:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In this case, I do not think anything local changed by langcom, the
> foundation, or anybody else unless it creates legal problems. The only thing
> this request covers is the code itself, which is currently wrong since "ku"
> is a macrolanguage code but ku.wp is not truly a macrolanguage wiki.

That's likely outcome and it's likely that it would be LangCom's
suggestion (but, cf. Gerard's comment about priorities), but LangCom
doesn't have legitimacy to decide against the will of 100% of one
community if it's not about pure technical or linguistic issues. The
issue is clearly of political nature and LangCom is not the body which
solves such problems.

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

とある白い猫
  While opposition comments of the local community may be full of irrelevant
political and controversial references, the arguments in support of the
rename aren't anything of the sort. It may be difficult to follow the meta
page as there is so much irrelevant posts by the ku.wiki community and that
is drowning arguments in support of the move. It is a lame attempt
to filibuster IMHO. LangCom shouldn't give in to filibuster attempts. I
would like to point out that it is most definitely a political decision to
leave everything as is. LangCom unintentionally created this problem by
allowing the creation of Zazaki and Sorani wikipedias. By not changing it
the language committee and/or the foundation is essentially declaring
Kurmanji as the default Kurdish. In that sense, renaming it is the only
politically correct decision.

  Of course politics is irrelevant when it comes to LangCom's
operation. Linguistically it makes no sense to leave ku.wiki on its
macrolanguage code when the content is just one dialect (regardless of the
claims of the local community). Why did LangCom allow the creation of Zazaki
and Sorani wikipedias? Because these dialects are distinct enough from
Kurmanji dialect that they are seperate language editions of wikipedia. In
terms of linguistic and technical reasons, the local community so far
provided nothing tangible for LangCom's consideration. The opposition by
ku.wiki community is entirely political without any linguistic or  technical
reason.

  While LangCom lacks procedures for rename requests, this shouldn't be an
excuse to ignore rename requests. Also, no one expects the rename to
happen tomorrow, the only expectation is that if approved the request is
added to the backlog.

  -- とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 19:50, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 19:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > In this case, I do not think anything local changed by langcom, the
> > foundation, or anybody else unless it creates legal problems. The only
> thing
> > this request covers is the code itself, which is currently wrong since
> "ku"
> > is a macrolanguage code but ku.wp is not truly a macrolanguage wiki.
>
> That's likely outcome and it's likely that it would be LangCom's
> suggestion (but, cf. Gerard's comment about priorities), but LangCom
> doesn't have legitimacy to decide against the will of 100% of one
> community if it's not about pure technical or linguistic issues. The
> issue is clearly of political nature and LangCom is not the body which
> solves such problems.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Antoine Musso-3
In reply to this post by とある白い猫
On 16/09/11 14:37, とある白い猫 wrote:
> It is proposed that Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language)
> wikipedia (ku.wikipedia) be renamed to Kurmanji wikipedia (kmr.wikipedia)

Please note that we are not doing wiki renames yet for technical
reasons.  Nothing really preventing it, but we need the resources to
write the process, review it & test it.

--
Ashar Voultoiz


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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Nathan Awrich
I don't think White_Cat's nomination is purely without ulterior motive,
unfortunately. As some editors from ku.wp have alluded to, the issue of the
name and designation of the "Kurdish Wikipedia" has ethnic and nationalist
ramifications on both sides of the debate. Several of the ku.wp editors are
on one side of that debate, and White_Cat (who is Turkish) is traditionally
on the other.

~Nathan
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
Any proof of this? I don't seem to see anywhere that it says that
White_Cat's nationality is Turkish. Also, that holds little relevance. I
agree with him and I am certainly not Turkish.


2011/9/16 Nathan <[hidden email]>

> I don't think White_Cat's nomination is purely without ulterior motive,
> unfortunately. As some editors from ku.wp have alluded to, the issue of the
> name and designation of the "Kurdish Wikipedia" has ethnic and nationalist
> ramifications on both sides of the debate. Several of the ku.wp editors are
> on one side of that debate, and White_Cat (who is Turkish) is traditionally
> on the other.
>
> ~Nathan
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Nathan Awrich
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:33 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Any proof of this? I don't seem to see anywhere that it says that
> White_Cat's nationality is Turkish. Also, that holds little relevance. I
> agree with him and I am certainly not Turkish.
>
>
You may not find it relevant, which is fine. Others might think differently.
If it's not relevant to you, then I suppose proof is unnecessary.
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
Let me add to this that some of the same people compared my actions, in
supporting a technical move to change the ISO code of a Wikipedia, to those
of a group of Turkish soldiers who attempted to murder Kurdish women and
children. This game of nationalism and accusations is nothing new on
Wikipedia. I have been called a Russian, a Soviet, a Jew, a Kurdish
nationalist and many other things.

I was even told once that I was an official enemy of the Romanian people and
that my name and face had been stored in a secret Romanian government
database of enemies of the Romanian nation and that I would be targeted for
elimination. So please, let's keep nationality out of this. I am not Turkish
but I am a linguist and a geek and this move makes linguistic and technical
sense. I am more a supporter of the aspirations of peoples to be
independent, but I'd rather not take sides in every single geopolitical
conflict because this does not need to be tied to that. It is a simple
technical and linguistic issue with two options for a solution that should
be chosen based on common sense, not nationalist sentiments or loyalties,
and I have chosen my side without those unnecessary influences.


2011/9/16 Nathan <[hidden email]>

> I don't think White_Cat's nomination is purely without ulterior motive,
> unfortunately. As some editors from ku.wp have alluded to, the issue of the
> name and designation of the "Kurdish Wikipedia" has ethnic and nationalist
> ramifications on both sides of the debate. Several of the ku.wp editors are
> on one side of that debate, and White_Cat (who is Turkish) is traditionally
> on the other.
>
> ~Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Nathan Awrich
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:45 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Let me add to this that some of the same people compared my actions, in
> supporting a technical move to change the ISO code of a Wikipedia, to those
> of a group of Turkish soldiers who attempted to murder Kurdish women and
> children. This game of nationalism and accusations is nothing new on
> Wikipedia. I have been called a Russian, a Soviet, a Jew, a Kurdish
> nationalist and many other things.
>
> I was even told once that I was an official enemy of the Romanian people and
> that my name and face had been stored in a secret Romanian government
> database of enemies of the Romanian nation and that I would be targeted for
> elimination. So please, let's keep nationality out of this. I am not Turkish
> but I am a linguist and a geek and this move makes linguistic and technical
> sense. I am more a supporter of the aspirations of peoples to be
> independent, but I'd rather not take sides in every single geopolitical
> conflict because this does not need to be tied to that. It is a simple
> technical and linguistic issue with two options for a solution that should
> be chosen based on common sense, not nationalist sentiments or loyalties,
> and I have chosen my side without those unnecessary influences.
>
>

Mark, your objections would make sense if I had only said "Oh by the
way, he's Turkish." I didn't. As a matter of fact, White Cat has an
extensive history of being subject to dispute resolution, editing
restrictions, blocks etc. for disruptive editing with a Turkish
nationalist point of view. While I do understand that you may
disagree, I personally think that strongly held biases in the matter
at hand are relevant to the decision he asks the community to make.

Nathan

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
And if I were to ask the community to make it? I would be perfectly willing
to do the same thing. This should not be relevant in Wikimedia. If a
pedophile says "We should put a picture of a naked child on every page of
Wikipedia!", we should refute his idea on its merits, not based on the fact
that he's a pedophile. I have been thinking for a long time now that ku.wp
should be moved to kmr.wp, I am just not a big fan of all of the bureaucracy
and so avoided doing it myself. Now someone else has done it, and I support
it.

So it really bothers me that you're judging a proposal based on the
(supposed) ethnicity of the person who suggested it, especially since the
proposal has always had merit and I could've easily been the proposer
myself. If an argument has no merit, then say so based on the argument. Ad
hominem is never right, and that's actually exactly what you've done here.


2011/9/16 Nathan <[hidden email]>

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:45 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Let me add to this that some of the same people compared my actions, in
> > supporting a technical move to change the ISO code of a Wikipedia, to
> those
> > of a group of Turkish soldiers who attempted to murder Kurdish women and
> > children. This game of nationalism and accusations is nothing new on
> > Wikipedia. I have been called a Russian, a Soviet, a Jew, a Kurdish
> > nationalist and many other things.
> >
> > I was even told once that I was an official enemy of the Romanian people
> and
> > that my name and face had been stored in a secret Romanian government
> > database of enemies of the Romanian nation and that I would be targeted
> for
> > elimination. So please, let's keep nationality out of this. I am not
> Turkish
> > but I am a linguist and a geek and this move makes linguistic and
> technical
> > sense. I am more a supporter of the aspirations of peoples to be
> > independent, but I'd rather not take sides in every single geopolitical
> > conflict because this does not need to be tied to that. It is a simple
> > technical and linguistic issue with two options for a solution that
> should
> > be chosen based on common sense, not nationalist sentiments or loyalties,
> > and I have chosen my side without those unnecessary influences.
> >
> >
>
> Mark, your objections would make sense if I had only said "Oh by the
> way, he's Turkish." I didn't. As a matter of fact, White Cat has an
> extensive history of being subject to dispute resolution, editing
> restrictions, blocks etc. for disruptive editing with a Turkish
> nationalist point of view. While I do understand that you may
> disagree, I personally think that strongly held biases in the matter
> at hand are relevant to the decision he asks the community to make.
>
> Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

とある白い猫
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
  I am sorry but how is renaming ku.wikipedia to kmr.wikipedia a "Turkish
Nationalistic View"? Have you even read the proposal before assuming bad
faith? Do you understand how little the proposal intends to change?

   - The interwiki link for Sorani wikipedia is "کوردی" which means "Kurdi"
   or Kuridsh in Sorani dialect (this should perhaps include "سۆرانی‎‎"
   which means "Sorani").
   - Interwiki links for ku.wikipedia currently is Kurdî in latin script
   instead of dual Latin/Arabic script as Kurdish can be written in multiple
   scripts if we are referring to the macro-language Kurdish and not the
   Kurmanji dialect.
   - Interwiki links for kmr would probably be something like "Kurdî" or
   "Kurdî (Kurmancî)" as already discussed on the meta page.

  In other words from the perspective of interwiki links we may at most
include the dialect name in parenthesis to include the dialect of Kurdish.

  So in sum I proposed the macrolanguage code ku to be replaced with kmr to
properly represent the dialect the wiki covers with possible modification of
interwiki links label to specify the dialect. What motive could I have for
this (in your words "biassed") request?

  -- とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)


On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 01:55, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:45 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Let me add to this that some of the same people compared my actions, in
> > supporting a technical move to change the ISO code of a Wikipedia, to
> those
> > of a group of Turkish soldiers who attempted to murder Kurdish women and
> > children. This game of nationalism and accusations is nothing new on
> > Wikipedia. I have been called a Russian, a Soviet, a Jew, a Kurdish
> > nationalist and many other things.
> >
> > I was even told once that I was an official enemy of the Romanian people
> and
> > that my name and face had been stored in a secret Romanian government
> > database of enemies of the Romanian nation and that I would be targeted
> for
> > elimination. So please, let's keep nationality out of this. I am not
> Turkish
> > but I am a linguist and a geek and this move makes linguistic and
> technical
> > sense. I am more a supporter of the aspirations of peoples to be
> > independent, but I'd rather not take sides in every single geopolitical
> > conflict because this does not need to be tied to that. It is a simple
> > technical and linguistic issue with two options for a solution that
> should
> > be chosen based on common sense, not nationalist sentiments or loyalties,
> > and I have chosen my side without those unnecessary influences.
> >
> >
>
> Mark, your objections would make sense if I had only said "Oh by the
> way, he's Turkish." I didn't. As a matter of fact, White Cat has an
> extensive history of being subject to dispute resolution, editing
> restrictions, blocks etc. for disruptive editing with a Turkish
> nationalist point of view. While I do understand that you may
> disagree, I personally think that strongly held biases in the matter
> at hand are relevant to the decision he asks the community to make.
>
> Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Milos Rancic-2
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 00:38, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't think White_Cat's nomination is purely without ulterior motive,
> unfortunately. As some editors from ku.wp have alluded to, the issue of the
> name and designation of the "Kurdish Wikipedia" has ethnic and nationalist
> ramifications on both sides of the debate. Several of the ku.wp editors are
> on one side of that debate, and White_Cat (who is Turkish) is traditionally
> on the other.

The proposal is definitely a good faith one.

I've read relevant articles about Kurdish political disputes and there
is no [relevant] political dispute on the ethnolinguistic lines.
Actually, Sorani area [1] in Iraq is actually held [2] by Patriotic
Union of Kurdistan [3], which is supported by Kurdistan Workers' Party
(PKK) [4]. Northern area in Iraq is controlled by Kurdistan Democratic
Party [5], supported by Turkey in Iraqi Kurdish Civil War [6].

If White Cat has pro-Turkish bias, he wouldn't support Sorani
speakers, as they are "on PKK's side" and PKK is the archenemy of
Turkey. However, much more relevant factor in inter-Kurdish disputes
are personal and political feuds, not ethnic tension.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dialects.jpg
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iraq_kurdish_areas_2003_vector.svg
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_Union_of_Kurdistan
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Democratic_Party
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdish_Civil_War

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:49 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And if I were to ask the community to make it? I would be perfectly willing
> to do the same thing. This should not be relevant in Wikimedia. If a
> pedophile says "We should put a picture of a naked child on every page of
> Wikipedia!", we should refute his idea on its merits, not based on the fact
> that he's a pedophile. I have been thinking for a long time now that ku.wp
> should be moved to kmr.wp, I am just not a big fan of all of the bureaucracy
> and so avoided doing it myself. Now someone else has done it, and I support
> it.
>
> So it really bothers me that you're judging a proposal based on the
> (supposed) ethnicity of the person who suggested it, especially since the
> proposal has always had merit and I could've easily been the proposer
> myself. If an argument has no merit, then say so based on the argument. Ad
> hominem is never right, and that's actually exactly what you've done here.
>

You are, again, jumping to conclusions unsupported by what I actually
wrote. I didn't "judge the proposal" based on his ethnicity. If you
can't be bothered to read what I've posted, then please refrain from
further replies.

---
Millosh wrote:

If White Cat has pro-Turkish bias, he wouldn't support Sorani
speakers, as they are "on PKK's side" and PKK is the archenemy of
Turkey. However, much more relevant factor in inter-Kurdish disputes
are personal and political feuds, not ethnic tension.
---

Here's a situation where there may be unknown ramifications to the
action requested. In a period of ethnic and political conflict between
two groups, even minor and seemingly apolitical maneuvers may have
larger significance not apparent to outsiders. Since we don't have all
the details, it can be helpful to understand the background of the
people involved in a dispute - in this case, virtually all of the
Kurdish editors are against the proposed rename, while White Cat (who
has an amply documented history of pro-Turkish editing which should
not be doubted) is in favor. If, as you say, it's a purely logical and
reasonable argument, then the nature of the two sides is an
interesting coincidence. Perhaps the Kurdish editors prefer having a
"Kurdish Wikipedia" as an emblem of their unified ethnic identity, or
perhaps there are other factors at play.

Nathan

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
Nathan, what about the fact that all the "Kurdish editors" are speakers of
Kurmanji? White Cat solicited opinions from the Sorani and Zazaki Wikipedias
but nobody from there has commented yet. It should be noted that ku.wp users
have a history of reacting angrily to the creation of Wikipedias for Kurdish
languages like Sorani, and languages that they believe to be Kurdish like
Zazaki. Gomada was seen around Meta complaining recently about the fact that
Zazaki has lots of new stub articles... why, if Gomada has never edited the
Zazaki Wikipedia before? Well, it's obvious: he doesn't want any "dialect"
Wikipedia to overtake the Kurmanji Wikipedia in number of articles.

If all Kurdish editors had been in favor of having a "Kurdish Wikipedia" as
an "emblem of their unified ethnic identity", as you claim, then there would
never have been a separate Sorani Wikipedia.


2011/9/17 Nathan <[hidden email]>

> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:49 PM, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > And if I were to ask the community to make it? I would be perfectly
> willing
> > to do the same thing. This should not be relevant in Wikimedia. If a
> > pedophile says "We should put a picture of a naked child on every page of
> > Wikipedia!", we should refute his idea on its merits, not based on the
> fact
> > that he's a pedophile. I have been thinking for a long time now that
> ku.wp
> > should be moved to kmr.wp, I am just not a big fan of all of the
> bureaucracy
> > and so avoided doing it myself. Now someone else has done it, and I
> support
> > it.
> >
> > So it really bothers me that you're judging a proposal based on the
> > (supposed) ethnicity of the person who suggested it, especially since the
> > proposal has always had merit and I could've easily been the proposer
> > myself. If an argument has no merit, then say so based on the argument.
> Ad
> > hominem is never right, and that's actually exactly what you've done
> here.
> >
>
> You are, again, jumping to conclusions unsupported by what I actually
> wrote. I didn't "judge the proposal" based on his ethnicity. If you
> can't be bothered to read what I've posted, then please refrain from
> further replies.
>
> ---
> Millosh wrote:
>
> If White Cat has pro-Turkish bias, he wouldn't support Sorani
> speakers, as they are "on PKK's side" and PKK is the archenemy of
> Turkey. However, much more relevant factor in inter-Kurdish disputes
> are personal and political feuds, not ethnic tension.
> ---
>
> Here's a situation where there may be unknown ramifications to the
> action requested. In a period of ethnic and political conflict between
> two groups, even minor and seemingly apolitical maneuvers may have
> larger significance not apparent to outsiders. Since we don't have all
> the details, it can be helpful to understand the background of the
> people involved in a dispute - in this case, virtually all of the
> Kurdish editors are against the proposed rename, while White Cat (who
> has an amply documented history of pro-Turkish editing which should
> not be doubted) is in favor. If, as you say, it's a purely logical and
> reasonable argument, then the nature of the two sides is an
> interesting coincidence. Perhaps the Kurdish editors prefer having a
> "Kurdish Wikipedia" as an emblem of their unified ethnic identity, or
> perhaps there are other factors at play.
>
> Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Milos Rancic-2
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 18:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If all Kurdish editors had been in favor of having a "Kurdish Wikipedia" as
> an "emblem of their unified ethnic identity", as you claim, then there would
> never have been a separate Sorani Wikipedia.

That's true. For example, we have just one Azerbaijani Wikipedia with
significant admin pool from Iran and South Azerbaijani Wikipedia
proposal doesn't have any support. (South Azerbaijani, spoken in Iran,
is written in Arabic script.)

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

M. Williamson
Azeri/Azerbaijani Wikipedia is a good example of a Wikipedia that is truly
available to users in both varieties, 10% of pages on the Wiki are in a
different variety and it is also featured prominently on the main page.
ku.wp users have been trying to make the case that they are the same, but
the comparison falls flat: 99% of content on ku.wp is in Kurmanji; all
content in Sorani except for 6 pages was deleted/transwikied when Sorani
Wikipedia was created, and mainpage is only available in Kurmanji, as is the
interface itself. It is clearly not a useful site to people who do not speak
Kurmanji, so there is no reason it should be located at anywhere except the
code for Kurmanji, which is kmr.


2011/9/17 Milos Rancic <[hidden email]>

> On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 18:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If all Kurdish editors had been in favor of having a "Kurdish Wikipedia"
> as
> > an "emblem of their unified ethnic identity", as you claim, then there
> would
> > never have been a separate Sorani Wikipedia.
>
> That's true. For example, we have just one Azerbaijani Wikipedia with
> significant admin pool from Iran and South Azerbaijani Wikipedia
> proposal doesn't have any support. (South Azerbaijani, spoken in Iran,
> is written in Arabic script.)
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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