Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

とある白い猫
az.wikipedia hosts content for both dialects of Azerbaijani language. As
long as a wiki is willing to host multiple dialects under a macro-language
banner and said dialects are willing to be hosted under that banner there is
no problem for us to fix. However, if one of the two az.wiki dialects
decided to form a separate wiki, I would request the remaining wiki to be
renamed as well. Azerbaijani dialects:

   - az – Macrolanguage
   - azj – North Azerbaijani
   - azb – South Azerbaijani

This is not the same situation with Kurdish as we only have one dialect left
at ku.wiki and other already separated with the support of the relevant
communities. The only remaining dialect is Kurmanji.

Nathan, I am sorry but it is neither the purpose nor business of LangCom,
Wikipedia projects or even the Foundation to take political sides. This is
even present at the language proposal policy:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy Requisites
#3. LangCom (or Foundation-l) is *NOT* the place to address complex ethnic
issues. I do not know what Nathan hopes to achieve but he seems to have a
one sided personal feud with me rather than actual objections in a
linguistic or technical manner and seems to be more politically motivated.

  -- とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)

On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 18:39, Milos Rancic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 18:35, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > If all Kurdish editors had been in favor of having a "Kurdish Wikipedia"
> as
> > an "emblem of their unified ethnic identity", as you claim, then there
> would
> > never have been a separate Sorani Wikipedia.
>
> That's true. For example, we have just one Azerbaijani Wikipedia with
> significant admin pool from Iran and South Azerbaijani Wikipedia
> proposal doesn't have any support. (South Azerbaijani, spoken in Iran,
> is written in Arabic script.)
>
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Re: Rename proposal of Kurdish wikipedia

Rich Farmbrough
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
If there's along list, then it can get longer. :-)

And I'm not sure ar: is a parallel - ar: is generally MSA its relation
to arz: is more like Received English's relation to other dialects  a
member of the same family, rather than the language family as a whole
which kur: is.  The situation is more as if the articles at ar: were
almost all in arz:

And clearly we do not want inaccurately labelled wikis.

On 16/09/2011 15:23, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> The argument for or against using ku.wikipedia.org are interesting but at
> this time rather irrelevant.There is a long list of pending name changes
> waiting to happen. Also we are quite happy to keep codes that are in fact
> representing macro languages  like ar or Arabic.
> Thanks,
>       GerardM
>
> 2011/9/16 とある白い猫<[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> It is proposed that Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language
>> )
>> wikipedia (ku.wikipedia) be renamed to Kurmanji wikipedia (kmr.wikipedia)
>> as
>> currently ku.wikipedia predominantly hosts a single dialect which is
>> Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish. Local community oppose the proposal so far.
>>
>> I'd like to explain some background behind the proposal. Kurdish wikipedia
>> had been hosting multiple dialects since its creation. The three main
>> dialects (in terms of article count) have been Zazaki (1.5–2.5 million
>> speakers), Sorani (5 million speakers) and Kurmanji (9 million speakers).
>> Zazaki is only mentioned here because it was hosted by Kurdish wikipedia at
>> some point. Zazaki's language family is controversial as some sources put
>> it
>> as a dialect of Kurdish while others disagree with this. While details
>> surrounding the linguistic properties are irrelevant for this proposal,
>> the controversy itself is relevant.
>>
>> Kurdish as a language has no standard from and the ISO considers ku (kur)
>> to
>> be a language code for a macro-language for multiple dialects. Furthermore
>> said dialects are mutually unintelligible (per first Google hit:
>> http://www.thefellowship.info/Missions/Global-Missions/People-Groups/Kurds
>> )
>> with multiple different types of scripts such as Sorani using rtl Arabic
>> script and Kurmanji using ltr latin script and are different in both
>> grammar
>> and vocabulary. In addition Sorani is the only dialect used officially in
>> north of Iraq by the Kurdistan Regional Government and is not the most
>> common dialect of Kurdish (according to Wikipedia anyways).
>>
>>    - Zazaki dialect separated from Kurdish Wikipedia on 5 January 2007 with
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Zazaki
>> and
>>    had been steadily having an increase in article count and will seemingly
>>    overtake ku.wikipedia soon enough.
>>    - Sorani dialect has seperated from Kurdish wikipedia on 14 November
>>    2010 with
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Kurdish_(Sorani)
>> and
>>    has steady contribution despite being a very recently created wiki.
>>    - Minor dialects (in terms of article count) hosted by Kurdish wikipedia
>>    already have their relevant incubator pages with Southern Kurdish created
>>    on 29 October 2009 (http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/sdh)
>>    and Kirmanjki created on 30 July 2008 (
>>    http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kiu).
>>
>> Currently ku.wikipedia has very few tagged articles in non-Kurmanji
>> dialects:
>>
>>    -
>>
>> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Soran%C3%AE6
>> Sorani uses - There is a Sorani wikipedia
>>    -
>>
>> http://ku.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Bi_kurdiya_ba%C5%9F%C3%BBr14
>> Southern Kurdish uses - There is an incubator entry for Southern
>> Kurdish
>>    -
>>
>> http://ku.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taybet:WhatLinksHere/%C5%9Eablon:Zazak%C3%AE&limit=6565
>> Zazaki uses - There is a Zazaki wikipedia
>>
>> By keeping ku.wikipedia with its ku language code we are:
>>
>>    - Implying Kurmanji as the "official" dialect of Kurdish with the Kurdish
>>    macro-language code
>>    - Implying Sorani as the lesser dialect when in fact it is the only
>>    official one.
>>    - Implying Zazaki to be a Kurdish dialect which Zazaki community
>>    opposes fiercely as evident in closed language proposal of Zazaki of
>> 2007.
>>    - Confusing the reader whom visits ku.wikipedia only to find Kurdish
>>    articles they cannot read unless they use Kurmanji dialect (only half of
>>    Kurdish speakers know Kurmanji if you add up the numbers for all other
>>    dialects).
>>    - I'd like to highlight one remark from Sorani wiki proposal page: "Even
>>    though both "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are subgroups (accent) of Kurdish
>>    language, they can cause of misunderstanding and misinterpretation for
>>    people who speak the language with these accents to each other. This can
>>    happen in different situations. For instance during regular
>> conversations,
>>    or reading/understanding complex and professional contents.In general,
>>    "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are not useful to each other since
>> misinterpretation
>>    is so high while they are used in different places. --Marmzok 11 April
>> 2009"
>>    - This is the problem the reader deals on an article by article basis
>> unless
>>    they know the existence of Sorani wikipedia.
>>
>> Relevant meta discussion is here:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Kurdish_2_Wikipedia
>>
>> Might I remind that "The committee does not consider political differences,
>> since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free,
>> unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information
>> from the viewpoint of individual political communities." (
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meta:Language_proposal_policy#Requisites).
>> Therefore political arguments including the ones in the meta discussion are
>> irrelevant.
>>
>>   - とある白い猫  (To Aru Shiroi Neko)
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