Request for new lenguage

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Request for new lenguage

Cyprien Emeric
Good afternoon,

Here is the information required for the procedure:

*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
*Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
ISO-639 2: oc
ISO-639: oci
*Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official
census)
It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some
particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects.
Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is
used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal
language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses
forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the
majority written form used in the region.
Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of
France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native
speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language
and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a
Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but an
article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because of
the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm
(s)he won't be able to read easily.

That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I
send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a
decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.

What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result of
my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared
by many other people.
Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it alive.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

C. E.
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Re: Request for new lenguage

Dakota Ross
Hi Cyprien,

I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of
regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical
and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a
standalone project.

The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language,
as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and
Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of
Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.

The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia
communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of
receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would
be requesting Incubator projects?

I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the
answers and knowledge others do.

Best,
Dakota (dross)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Good afternoon,
>
> Here is the information required for the procedure:
>
> *Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
> *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
> ISO-639 2: oc
> ISO-639: oci
> *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official
> census)
> It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some
> particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects.
> Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is
> used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal
> language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses
> forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the
> majority written form used in the region.
> Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of
> France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native
> speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language
> and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a
> Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but an
> article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because of
> the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm
> (s)he won't be able to read easily.
>
> That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I
> send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a
> decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
>
> What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result of
> my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared
> by many other people.
> Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it alive.
>
> Thank you very much,
>
> Regards,
>
> C. E.
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Request for new lenguage

Cyprien Emeric
Hi Dakota,

I am aware of the difficulties there are, and the difficulties there will
be to develop this project. That's why I am really happy to see that you
can help me a bit.

First, about the language code, I don't really have any solution. I sent
you the email knowing that it would be a problem. I am ready to try to ask
for a different code to the institutions, but I think you had a great idea,
so maybe we should try to see if your solution works before starting
another procedure.

Then, about the Provençal Wikimedia community, I am sure we can find quite
easily a group of people which would make the project alive. There is
already an Occitan community, and I am sure some people in this community
know Provençal and could become contributors in this project too. In
addition, I also know Provençal associations and institutions which could
help and participate a lot in the project, and which could form a community
important enough to make it alive. But you'll understand if I don't want to
ask them anything whithout being sure that this project can take shape.
Could you also explain me what you meant with "requesting Incubator
projects"?

Finally, I'd also like to talk about the number of speakers: what I gave
you in my previous email is only the approximate number of native speakers
there are. I didn't mention the number of non native speakers of Provençal
(speakers like me, which undoubtedly constitute a large part of the total
number of speakers). Provençal is taught in some schools (perhaps I can get
the number of Provençal students in schools if needed), and some speakers
also learn it on the Internet or by reading books, etc. If a Provençal
Wikimedia project was created, it would surely motivate them a lot, and
thus increase the number of potential contributors (please don't laugh, we
never realize the psychological power things can have on people, and the
consequences it can generate). It would also help a lot Provençal teachers
in schools: it would allow them to use the Provençal Wikipedia in classes,
for example, and thus increase the number of speakers in the long run.
A Provençal Wikimedia project would bring exposure to the language too, and
that's what it most needs.

I really hope you'll be able to help me, and I thank you a lot for your
kindness.

Sincerely,

Cyprien.

Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 18:19, Dakota Ross <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi Cyprien,
>
> I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of
> regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical
> and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a
> standalone project.
>
> The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language,
> as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and
> Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of
> Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.
>
> The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia
> communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of
> receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would
> be requesting Incubator projects?
>
> I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the
> answers and knowledge others do.
>
> Best,
> Dakota (dross)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > Here is the information required for the procedure:
> >
> > *Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
> > *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
> > ISO-639 2: oc
> > ISO-639: oci
> > *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official
> > census)
> > It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some
> > particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects.
> > Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is
> > used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal
> > language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses
> > forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the
> > majority written form used in the region.
> > Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of
> > France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native
> > speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language
> > and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a
> > Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but
> an
> > article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because
> of
> > the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm
> > (s)he won't be able to read easily.
> >
> > That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I
> > send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a
> > decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
> >
> > What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result
> of
> > my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared
> > by many other people.
> > Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it
> alive.
> >
> > Thank you very much,
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > C. E.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: Request for new lenguage

James Salsman-2
Cyprien,

Please read https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy
and if you meet the criteria, add the request to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages

Best regards,
Jim


On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:20 PM Cyprien Emeric <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Dakota,
>
> I am aware of the difficulties there are, and the difficulties there will
> be to develop this project. That's why I am really happy to see that you
> can help me a bit.
>
> First, about the language code, I don't really have any solution. I sent
> you the email knowing that it would be a problem. I am ready to try to ask
> for a different code to the institutions, but I think you had a great idea,
> so maybe we should try to see if your solution works before starting
> another procedure.
>
> Then, about the Provençal Wikimedia community, I am sure we can find quite
> easily a group of people which would make the project alive. There is
> already an Occitan community, and I am sure some people in this community
> know Provençal and could become contributors in this project too. In
> addition, I also know Provençal associations and institutions which could
> help and participate a lot in the project, and which could form a community
> important enough to make it alive. But you'll understand if I don't want to
> ask them anything whithout being sure that this project can take shape.
> Could you also explain me what you meant with "requesting Incubator
> projects"?
>
> Finally, I'd also like to talk about the number of speakers: what I gave
> you in my previous email is only the approximate number of native speakers
> there are. I didn't mention the number of non native speakers of Provençal
> (speakers like me, which undoubtedly constitute a large part of the total
> number of speakers). Provençal is taught in some schools (perhaps I can get
> the number of Provençal students in schools if needed), and some speakers
> also learn it on the Internet or by reading books, etc. If a Provençal
> Wikimedia project was created, it would surely motivate them a lot, and
> thus increase the number of potential contributors (please don't laugh, we
> never realize the psychological power things can have on people, and the
> consequences it can generate). It would also help a lot Provençal teachers
> in schools: it would allow them to use the Provençal Wikipedia in classes,
> for example, and thus increase the number of speakers in the long run.
> A Provençal Wikimedia project would bring exposure to the language too, and
> that's what it most needs.
>
> I really hope you'll be able to help me, and I thank you a lot for your
> kindness.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Cyprien.
>
> Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 18:19, Dakota Ross <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> > Hi Cyprien,
> >
> > I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of
> > regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical
> > and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a
> > standalone project.
> >
> > The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language,
> > as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and
> > Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of
> > Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.
> >
> > The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia
> > communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of
> > receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would
> > be requesting Incubator projects?
> >
> > I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the
> > answers and knowledge others do.
> >
> > Best,
> > Dakota (dross)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Good afternoon,
> > >
> > > Here is the information required for the procedure:
> > >
> > > *Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
> > > *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
> > > ISO-639 2: oc
> > > ISO-639: oci
> > > *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official
> > > census)
> > > It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some
> > > particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects.
> > > Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is
> > > used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal
> > > language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses
> > > forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the
> > > majority written form used in the region.
> > > Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of
> > > France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native
> > > speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language
> > > and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a
> > > Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but
> > an
> > > article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because
> > of
> > > the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm
> > > (s)he won't be able to read easily.
> > >
> > > That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I
> > > send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a
> > > decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
> > >
> > > What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result
> > of
> > > my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared
> > > by many other people.
> > > Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it
> > alive.
> > >
> > > Thank you very much,
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > C. E.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikipedia-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l

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Re: Request for new lenguage

Federico Leva (Nemo)
In reply to this post by Cyprien Emeric
Cyprien Emeric, 21/10/2018 19:27:
> *Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
> *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc

https://oc.wikipedia.org/ already exists.

Federico

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Re: Request for new lenguage

M. Williamson
Yes, Cyprien Emeric addressed that in the original email.

Regardless, the appropriate venue for this request is Meta-Wiki, not this
mailing list.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 10:31 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Cyprien Emeric, 21/10/2018 19:27:
> > *Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau
> > *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
>
> https://oc.wikipedia.org/ already exists.
>
> Federico
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
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