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Research banner

Thomas Dalton
I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
(a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
Committee. I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
to put this banner up. I notice I was given an option to donate my
"earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
(I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
they arrive in my paypal account).

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Re: Research banner

Michael Peel-4

On 9 Dec 2011, at 00:50, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
> banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
> (a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
> money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
> the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
> Committee.

There's more information about this on the WMF's blog at:
http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/08/experiment-decision-making/

> I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
> to put this banner up.

None whatsoever. It falls outside of the fundraising agreement, since fundraising banners are now turned off for logged-in users, and we don't have any control over what's displayed using CentralNotice aside from the fundraising banners.

> I notice I was given an option to donate my
> "earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
> (I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
> they arrive in my paypal account).

Thanks. :-) It's a bit odd that the Red Cross is listed there... I don't think they're doing any sort of geolocation, so it would be difficult for them to have a donation link to WMUK, even if they were so inclined.

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: Research banner

Richard Symonds-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas,

We had no involvement in this, and I'm not aware that we were even told about it in the first place. What do WMUK members (ie people on this email list) think of the banner?  

Richard Symonds

On 9 Dec 2011, at 00:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
> banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
> (a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
> money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
> the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
> Committee. I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
> to put this banner up. I notice I was given an option to donate my
> "earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
> (I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
> they arrive in my paypal account).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Research banner

Fae-6
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
I have raised my concerns for this appearing to be an advert on IRC
with RCOM the DEV team and then on-wiki with Philippe. RCOM have
pointed me to the WMF and the WMF said it's not their problem and
pointed me back to RCOM. There is a claim that the central notice was
agreed with the community but this does not appear to yet be supported
with evidence.

I have raised my personal opinion at
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Harvard.2FScience_Po_Adverts>
where any of my fellow Wikipedians are free to add their own.

Note, during the IRC chat it was pointed out to me that Google or a
telecoms company could easily be next, there is no restriction for
central notices of this type on what logos or other forms of
advertising they might carry under a claim that this would make the
sponsorship arrangement clear. Considering Jimbo's statements that
Wikipedia will never carry advertising, I think this puts us all in an
uncomfortable position.

Thanks,
Fae
--
http://enwp.org/user_talk:fae
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/faetags

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Re: Research banner

Thomas Morton
I think it was certainly a very dick move to impose it on the community - when the first proposal raised clear objections.

I know we pointed them at RCOM/Foundation at that point, but I don't think that was with the implicit agreement that whatever they came up with would be acceptable... 

Tom

On 9 December 2011 09:41, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have raised my concerns for this appearing to be an advert on IRC
with RCOM the DEV team and then on-wiki with Philippe. RCOM have
pointed me to the WMF and the WMF said it's not their problem and
pointed me back to RCOM. There is a claim that the central notice was
agreed with the community but this does not appear to yet be supported
with evidence.

I have raised my personal opinion at
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:ANI#Harvard.2FScience_Po_Adverts>
where any of my fellow Wikipedians are free to add their own.

Note, during the IRC chat it was pointed out to me that Google or a
telecoms company could easily be next, there is no restriction for
central notices of this type on what logos or other forms of
advertising they might carry under a claim that this would make the
sponsorship arrangement clear. Considering Jimbo's statements that
Wikipedia will never carry advertising, I think this puts us all in an
uncomfortable position.

Thanks,
Fae
--
http://enwp.org/user_talk:fae
Guide to email tags: http://j.mp/faetags

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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[hidden email]
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Re: Research banner

HJ Mitchell
In reply to this post by Richard Symonds-3
I'm $15 richer than I was yesterday? It's not like some commercial advert, it's just an invitation to take part in a survey. I don't see what's got people so hot under the collar. 

Harry


From: Richard Symonds <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 3:01
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Research banner

Thomas,

We had no involvement in this, and I'm not aware that we were even told about it in the first place. What do WMUK members (ie people on this email list) think of the banner? 

Richard Symonds

On 9 Dec 2011, at 00:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
> banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
> (a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
> money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
> the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
> Committee. I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
> to put this banner up. I notice I was given an option to donate my
> "earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
> (I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
> they arrive in my paypal account).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Research banner

Richard Symonds-3

Harry,

 

Some of the issues I’ve seen brought up that I think are interesting points:

·         What if it was Microsoft, or Google, that was running this research, rather than Harvard University? Would we have their logos on the front page too? What if it was Mozilla, or the Free Software Foundation? Where do we draw the line?

·         If the Research Committee are allowed to post central notices after a short discussion, are others allowed to as well? Who decides what goes up? Can the British Library or Oxford University put up a banner about their research?

·         If Google (or Microsoft, or Tesco) put their logo on the front page as part of this research, does that clash with Wikimedia UK’s charitable objectives at all?

·         Some of the reward money was apparently donated to the WMF: are local chapters to get a share of this too? Where did the money come from in the first place, who is funding the research?

 

Like I said, just a few points to stimulate discussion. They might be baseless, but it’s always best to think about these things in depth. As it happens, I’m not overly concerned, but as a volunteer I’d like to have seen a bit more discussion about this somewhere first. And yes, I did take the survey: I earned $17, although I must say I was hoping for more.

 

Richard Symonds

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of HJ Mitchell
Sent: 09 December 2011 13:53
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Research banner

 

I'm $15 richer than I was yesterday? It's not like some commercial advert, it's just an invitation to take part in a survey. I don't see what's got people so hot under the collar. 

 

Harry

 


From: Richard Symonds <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 3:01
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Research banner

Thomas,

We had no involvement in this, and I'm not aware that we were even told about it in the first place. What do WMUK members (ie people on this email list) think of the banner? 

Richard Symonds

On 9 Dec 2011, at 00:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:


> I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
> banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
> (a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
> money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
> the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
> Committee. I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
> to put this banner up. I notice I was given an option to donate my
> "earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
> (I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
> they arrive in my paypal account).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Research banner

Roger Bamkin
The banner has been taken down Harry by consensus as advertising and not in line with our values ... you can keep the 15 quid

On 9 December 2011 14:15, Richard Symonds <[hidden email]> wrote:

Harry,

 

Some of the issues I’ve seen brought up that I think are interesting points:

·         What if it was Microsoft, or Google, that was running this research, rather than Harvard University? Would we have their logos on the front page too? What if it was Mozilla, or the Free Software Foundation? Where do we draw the line?

·         If the Research Committee are allowed to post central notices after a short discussion, are others allowed to as well? Who decides what goes up? Can the British Library or Oxford University put up a banner about their research?

·         If Google (or Microsoft, or Tesco) put their logo on the front page as part of this research, does that clash with Wikimedia UK’s charitable objectives at all?

·         Some of the reward money was apparently donated to the WMF: are local chapters to get a share of this too? Where did the money come from in the first place, who is funding the research?

 

Like I said, just a few points to stimulate discussion. They might be baseless, but it’s always best to think about these things in depth. As it happens, I’m not overly concerned, but as a volunteer I’d like to have seen a bit more discussion about this somewhere first. And yes, I did take the survey: I earned $17, although I must say I was hoping for more.

 

Richard Symonds

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of HJ Mitchell
Sent: 09 December 2011 13:53
To: [hidden email]


Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Research banner

 

I'm $15 richer than I was yesterday? It's not like some commercial advert, it's just an invitation to take part in a survey. I don't see what's got people so hot under the collar. 

 

Harry

 


From: Richard Symonds <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 3:01
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Research banner

Thomas,

We had no involvement in this, and I'm not aware that we were even told about it in the first place. What do WMUK members (ie people on this email list) think of the banner? 

Richard Symonds

On 9 Dec 2011, at 00:50, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just loaded a Wikipedia article and rather than a fundraising
> banner, I saw a banner asking me to participate in a research project
> (a fairly standard game theory type experiment involving how to share
> money between yourself and other participants). It was made clear that
> the banner was approved by the WMF and the Wikimedia Research
> Committee. I'm wondering what involvement Wikimedia UK had in deciding
> to put this banner up. I notice I was given an option to donate my
> "earnings" to the WMF (or the International Red Cross), but not WMUK
> (I chose to keep mine for myself and will pass them on the WMUK once
> they arrive in my paypal account).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org




--
Roger Bamkin
01332 702993
0758 2020815
Google+:Victuallers
Skype:Victuallers1
Flickr:Victuallers2


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Re: Research banner

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Michael Peel-4
On 9 December 2011 02:57, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> None whatsoever. It falls outside of the fundraising agreement, since fundraising banners are now turned off for logged-in users, and we don't have any control over what's displayed using CentralNotice aside from the fundraising banners.

I'm am seeing fundraising banners while logged in... are you sure they
are supposed to be turned off?

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Re: Research banner

Michael Peel-4

On 9 Dec 2011, at 19:44, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> On 9 December 2011 02:57, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> None whatsoever. It falls outside of the fundraising agreement, since fundraising banners are now turned off for logged-in users, and we don't have any control over what's displayed using CentralNotice aside from the fundraising banners.
>
> I'm am seeing fundraising banners while logged in... are you sure they
> are supposed to be turned off?

My apologies; I misunderstood the situation. They've been turned off for some other countries, but they're still on for UK logged-in users at the moment (I gather they'll be turned off soon). So this banner was overriding the fundraising banners for some users. :-(

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: Research banner

Thomas Dalton
On 9 December 2011 19:48, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My apologies; I misunderstood the situation. They've been turned off for some other countries, but they're still on for UK logged-in users at the moment (I gather they'll be turned off soon). So this banner was overriding the fundraising banners for some users. :-(

That would appear to be in violation of the fundraising agreement
(albeit, most likely, inadvertently). It appears this banner was
implemented with even more carelessness than was already apparent...

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Re: Research banner

Chris Keating-2


On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 9 December 2011 19:48, Michael Peel <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My apologies; I misunderstood the situation. They've been turned off for some other countries, but they're still on for UK logged-in users at the moment (I gather they'll be turned off soon). So this banner was overriding the fundraising banners for some users. :-(

That would appear to be in violation of the fundraising agreement
(albeit, most likely, inadvertently). It appears this banner was
implemented with even more carelessness than was already apparent...

I was under the impression that fundraising banners were still being displayed for logged-in users in the UK, so was a little irritated when the survey banners appeared instead. 

That said, it is about time that fundraising banners were taken down for logged-in users, and they will be shortly. I doubt Wikimedia UK has suffered any appreciable loss as a result.

I'm pretty sure that whoever at the Foundation thought this was a good idea didn't think about how this might impact on WMUK's fundraiser - but then they evidently didn't think of a lot of other things either. 

Actually I think that research into how people behave in online communities is very important to the success of the Wikimedia movement, which makes this whole affair even more regrettable...

Chris
(Wikimedia UK fundraising lead)

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Re: Research banner

Fae-6

Perhaps we should estimate the loss, before finalizing fundraiser payments.

Cheers,
Fae (mobile)


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Re: Research banner

Gordon Joly
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton

****
A team of researchers at the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University and Sciences Po Paris, led by Professor Yann Algan and Wikimania 2011 keynote speaker Professor Yochai Benkler, invites English Wikipedia contributors to participate in an interactive online experiment on decision making. The goal of this study is to better understand the dynamics of interactions and behavior in online social spaces.
****

Oh brother!

Gordo

-- 

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
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Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!

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Re: Research banner

Roger Bamkin
Thanks Gordon, that made me smile.

... and I thought Chri's comment above was about right in that someone forgot to "think about quite a few things". Obviously an error of judgement. Its a pity admins had to switch it off though, as someone should have seen their mistake earlier. I hope I do (on my next one!)

Roger

On 10 December 2011 20:22, Gordon Joly <[hidden email]> wrote:

****
A team of researchers at the Berkman Center for Internet & Society at Harvard University and Sciences Po Paris, led by Professor Yann Algan and Wikimania 2011 keynote speaker Professor Yochai Benkler, invites English Wikipedia contributors to participate in an interactive online experiment on decision making. The goal of this study is to better understand the dynamics of interactions and behavior in online social spaces.
****

Oh brother!

Gordo

-- 

Gordon Joly
[hidden email]
http://www.joly.org.uk/
Don't Leave Space To The Professionals!

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01332 702993
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Google+:Victuallers
Skype:Victuallers1
Flickr:Victuallers2


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Re: Research banner

Rich Farmbrough
In reply to this post by Chris Keating-2
It is, but the type of Wikimedians who would go in for this are likely
to be more familiar with game theory than the average bear.

And the motivation for creating a public good is different from playing
games.  This must have been one expensive piece of research though.

On 09/12/2011 23:32, Chris Keating wrote:
>
> Actually I think that research into how people behave in online
> communities is very important to the success of the Wikimedia
> movement, which makes this whole affair even more regrettable...
>
> Chris
> (Wikimedia UK fundraising lead)
>


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Re: Research banner

Thomas Dalton
On 12 December 2011 21:52, Richard Farmbrough <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It is, but the type of Wikimedians who would go in for this are likely
> to be more familiar with game theory than the average bear.

Yes, I'm curious what they actually want to learn. I'm guessing its
something to do with alturism, but I'm not sure it will work.

It seems obvious to me that the optimal strategy is to completely
screw over your associates (it's not the optimal group strategy, but
you can't control what the group does), so that's what I did (the
researchers then screwed me over by randomly choosing the game with
the least win as the one I actually got - they said it was random, but
they never said they had equal probabilties!). I'm obviously an
alturistic person (I wouldn't volunteer here otherwise), but my
alturism doesn't extend to giving random people on the internet that I
don't know and that don't know me money that I have no idea what
they'll do with. It's just not a realistic scenario.

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Re: Research banner

Harry Burt
Obviously getting way off topic, but if you want a detailed analysis of the motivations and surprising findings of these games, they are the four classics of game theory: the dictator game, the ultimatum game, the public (goods) game, and the trust game.

The researchers know what they're doing here, the question really is whether we want to support fairly random pieces of research in this obvious a manner.

--
Harry (User:Jarry1250)

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12 December 2011 21:52, Richard Farmbrough <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It is, but the type of Wikimedians who would go in for this are likely
> to be more familiar with game theory than the average bear.

Yes, I'm curious what they actually want to learn. I'm guessing its
something to do with alturism, but I'm not sure it will work.

It seems obvious to me that the optimal strategy is to completely
screw over your associates (it's not the optimal group strategy, but
you can't control what the group does), so that's what I did (the
researchers then screwed me over by randomly choosing the game with
the least win as the one I actually got - they said it was random, but
they never said they had equal probabilties!). I'm obviously an
alturistic person (I wouldn't volunteer here otherwise), but my
alturism doesn't extend to giving random people on the internet that I
don't know and that don't know me money that I have no idea what
they'll do with. It's just not a realistic scenario.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org