[SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

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[SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

This is an odd discussion to have, but I brought the topic up at EMWCon and
it got an unexpectedly positive response, so I figure this is a good time
to ask.

I've been thinking for a while about renaming the Semantic Forms extension:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms

There are a variety of reasons for this:

1) As of 2014, Semantic Forms no longer requires Semantic MediaWiki - it
can be used by itself, or with the Cargo extension. In that way, it differs
from all the other "Semantic ..." extensions. (Though it was the first,
ironically.)

2) Even for those people who use SF with SMW (who are the majority), the
name "Semantic Forms" can be misleading - since it can make people think
that SMW properties are being edited directly, when in reality it's
template calls that are being edited, and it's those templates where the
semantic properties are.

3) The phrase "Semantic Forms" has some other unrelated meanings in the
real world - most notably (and most confusingly), web forms that are
created with "semantic HTML".

I presented a few name ideas at the conference, though the one that got the
most enthusiasm was "Template Forms". Which makes sense, since this name
makes it much clearer what this extension does - and how it differs from
other form-based extensions.

(If you're wondering, the other names I suggested, which were less
well-received, were "Instant Forms" and "Smart Forms".)

Another possibility I thought of after the conference is "Page Forms",
which also clarifies what the extension does. And it's a little more
accurate than "Template Forms", since SF lets you edit page sections, not
just template calls.

By the way, a few people suggested that I should just rename it "Forms" -
which is already what a lot of people call the extension. However, that
seems too generic, given that there are other form extensions, like
form-based emailers. It's another possibility, though.

Any thoughts on renaming Semantic Forms?

-Yaron

--
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Phil Legault-2
I like "Page Forms"

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 09:51:51 -0400
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Semediawiki-user] [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?
>
> Hi,
>
> This is an odd discussion to have, but I brought the topic up at EMWCon and
> it got an unexpectedly positive response, so I figure this is a good time
> to ask.
>
> I've been thinking for a while about renaming the Semantic Forms extension:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms
>
> There are a variety of reasons for this:
>
> 1) As of 2014, Semantic Forms no longer requires Semantic MediaWiki - it
> can be used by itself, or with the Cargo extension. In that way, it differs
> from all the other "Semantic ..." extensions. (Though it was the first,
> ironically.)
>
> 2) Even for those people who use SF with SMW (who are the majority), the
> name "Semantic Forms" can be misleading - since it can make people think
> that SMW properties are being edited directly, when in reality it's
> template calls that are being edited, and it's those templates where the
> semantic properties are.
>
> 3) The phrase "Semantic Forms" has some other unrelated meanings in the
> real world - most notably (and most confusingly), web forms that are
> created with "semantic HTML".
>
> I presented a few name ideas at the conference, though the one that got the
> most enthusiasm was "Template Forms". Which makes sense, since this name
> makes it much clearer what this extension does - and how it differs from
> other form-based extensions.
>
> (If you're wondering, the other names I suggested, which were less
> well-received, were "Instant Forms" and "Smart Forms".)
>
> Another possibility I thought of after the conference is "Page Forms",
> which also clarifies what the extension does. And it's a little more
> accurate than "Template Forms", since SF lets you edit page sections, not
> just template calls.
>
> By the way, a few people suggested that I should just rename it "Forms" -
> which is already what a lot of people call the extension. However, that
> seems too generic, given that there are other form extensions, like
> form-based emailers. It's another possibility, though.
>
> Any thoughts on renaming Semantic Forms?
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning reports. https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/305295220;132659582;e
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Krabina Bernhard
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
I would not change the name. The same problems exist with Semantic MediaWiki. For various reasons it would be better not to call it this way, but still it is kind of an established brand as is Semantic Forms.

The reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm and as you clarify that there are no dependencies and it can also be uses with Cargo or standalone, I don't see a problem.

If you absolutely must, I would go with "Forms". Your extension is the biggest, most developed and if the name is available, go ahead and grab it....

cheers,
Bernhard

----- Am 6. Jun 2016 um 15:51 schrieb Yaron Koren [hidden email]:

> Hi,
>
> This is an odd discussion to have, but I brought the topic up at EMWCon and
> it got an unexpectedly positive response, so I figure this is a good time
> to ask.
>
> I've been thinking for a while about renaming the Semantic Forms extension:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms
>
> There are a variety of reasons for this:
>
> 1) As of 2014, Semantic Forms no longer requires Semantic MediaWiki - it
> can be used by itself, or with the Cargo extension. In that way, it differs
> from all the other "Semantic ..." extensions. (Though it was the first,
> ironically.)
>
> 2) Even for those people who use SF with SMW (who are the majority), the
> name "Semantic Forms" can be misleading - since it can make people think
> that SMW properties are being edited directly, when in reality it's
> template calls that are being edited, and it's those templates where the
> semantic properties are.
>
> 3) The phrase "Semantic Forms" has some other unrelated meanings in the
> real world - most notably (and most confusingly), web forms that are
> created with "semantic HTML".
>
> I presented a few name ideas at the conference, though the one that got the
> most enthusiasm was "Template Forms". Which makes sense, since this name
> makes it much clearer what this extension does - and how it differs from
> other form-based extensions.
>
> (If you're wondering, the other names I suggested, which were less
> well-received, were "Instant Forms" and "Smart Forms".)
>
> Another possibility I thought of after the conference is "Page Forms",
> which also clarifies what the extension does. And it's a little more
> accurate than "Template Forms", since SF lets you edit page sections, not
> just template calls.
>
> By the way, a few people suggested that I should just rename it "Forms" -
> which is already what a lot of people call the extension. However, that
> seems too generic, given that there are other form extensions, like
> form-based emailers. It's another possibility, though.
>
> Any thoughts on renaming Semantic Forms?
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning reports. https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/305295220;132659582;e
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user

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patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

planetenxin
In reply to this post by Yaron Koren-2
Hi Yaron,

as you know, I'm not a big fan of renaming existing "brands". But I see
the points other "non-semantic" users might have with "Semantic Forms".

+1 for Page Forms

/Alexander

Am 06.06.2016 um 15:51 schrieb Yaron Koren:

> Hi,
>
> This is an odd discussion to have, but I brought the topic up at EMWCon and
> it got an unexpectedly positive response, so I figure this is a good time
> to ask.
>
> I've been thinking for a while about renaming the Semantic Forms extension:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms
>
> There are a variety of reasons for this:
>
> 1) As of 2014, Semantic Forms no longer requires Semantic MediaWiki - it
> can be used by itself, or with the Cargo extension. In that way, it differs
> from all the other "Semantic ..." extensions. (Though it was the first,
> ironically.)
>
> 2) Even for those people who use SF with SMW (who are the majority), the
> name "Semantic Forms" can be misleading - since it can make people think
> that SMW properties are being edited directly, when in reality it's
> template calls that are being edited, and it's those templates where the
> semantic properties are.
>
> 3) The phrase "Semantic Forms" has some other unrelated meanings in the
> real world - most notably (and most confusingly), web forms that are
> created with "semantic HTML".
>
> I presented a few name ideas at the conference, though the one that got the
> most enthusiasm was "Template Forms". Which makes sense, since this name
> makes it much clearer what this extension does - and how it differs from
> other form-based extensions.
>
> (If you're wondering, the other names I suggested, which were less
> well-received, were "Instant Forms" and "Smart Forms".)
>
> Another possibility I thought of after the conference is "Page Forms",
> which also clarifies what the extension does. And it's a little more
> accurate than "Template Forms", since SF lets you edit page sections, not
> just template calls.
>
> By the way, a few people suggested that I should just rename it "Forms" -
> which is already what a lot of people call the extension. However, that
> seems too generic, given that there are other form extensions, like
> form-based emailers. It's another possibility, though.
>
> Any thoughts on renaming Semantic Forms?
>
> -Yaron
>


--
________________________________________________
semantic::apps by gesinn.it
Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki.
http://semantic-apps.com

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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

david-217
I'm agree that it is not necessary to change a established name.
Furthermore SF can power "semantic" things :-)
However, 'Page Forms' makes sense.


A 06-06-2016 17:26, planetenxin escrigué:

> Hi Yaron,
>
> as you know, I'm not a big fan of renaming existing "brands". But I see
> the points other "non-semantic" users might have with "Semantic Forms".
>
> +1 for Page Forms
>
> /Alexander
>
> Am 06.06.2016 um 15:51 schrieb Yaron Koren:
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is an odd discussion to have, but I brought the topic up at
>> EMWCon and
>> it got an unexpectedly positive response, so I figure this is a good
>> time
>> to ask.
>>
>> I've been thinking for a while about renaming the Semantic Forms
>> extension:
>>
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms
>>
>> There are a variety of reasons for this:
>>
>> 1) As of 2014, Semantic Forms no longer requires Semantic MediaWiki -
>> it
>> can be used by itself, or with the Cargo extension. In that way, it
>> differs
>> from all the other "Semantic ..." extensions. (Though it was the
>> first,
>> ironically.)
>>
>> 2) Even for those people who use SF with SMW (who are the majority),
>> the
>> name "Semantic Forms" can be misleading - since it can make people
>> think
>> that SMW properties are being edited directly, when in reality it's
>> template calls that are being edited, and it's those templates where
>> the
>> semantic properties are.
>>
>> 3) The phrase "Semantic Forms" has some other unrelated meanings in
>> the
>> real world - most notably (and most confusingly), web forms that are
>> created with "semantic HTML".
>>
>> I presented a few name ideas at the conference, though the one that
>> got the
>> most enthusiasm was "Template Forms". Which makes sense, since this
>> name
>> makes it much clearer what this extension does - and how it differs
>> from
>> other form-based extensions.
>>
>> (If you're wondering, the other names I suggested, which were less
>> well-received, were "Instant Forms" and "Smart Forms".)
>>
>> Another possibility I thought of after the conference is "Page Forms",
>> which also clarifies what the extension does. And it's a little more
>> accurate than "Template Forms", since SF lets you edit page sections,
>> not
>> just template calls.
>>
>> By the way, a few people suggested that I should just rename it
>> "Forms" -
>> which is already what a lot of people call the extension. However,
>> that
>> seems too generic, given that there are other form extensions, like
>> form-based emailers. It's another possibility, though.
>>
>> Any thoughts on renaming Semantic Forms?
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________
> semantic::apps by gesinn.it
> Business Applications with Semantic Mediawiki.
> http://semantic-apps.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and
> traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and
> protocols are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for
> NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning reports.
> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/305295220;132659582;e
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Hans Oleander
In reply to this post by Krabina Bernhard
I very much agree with Bernhard' view and reasons.
Thus I opt for keeping the name, otherwise change to "Forms".

Cheers,
Hans

2016-06-06 16:45 GMT+02:00 Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]>:

> I would not change the name. The same problems exist with Semantic
> MediaWiki. For various reasons it would be better not to call it this way,
> but still it is kind of an established brand as is Semantic Forms.
>
> The reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm and as you clarify that
> there are no dependencies and it can also be uses with Cargo or standalone,
> I don't see a problem.
>
> If you absolutely must, I would go with "Forms". Your extension is the
> biggest, most developed and if the name is available, go ahead and grab
> it....
>
> cheers,
> Bernhard
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Ralf Krüdewagen
+1 for the views of Bernhard and Hans: Keep or "Forms"

Am 06.06.2016 um 18:12 schrieb Hans Oleander:

> I very much agree with Bernhard' view and reasons.
> Thus I opt for keeping the name, otherwise change to "Forms".
>
> Cheers,
> Hans
>
> 2016-06-06 16:45 GMT+02:00 Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I would not change the name. The same problems exist with Semantic
>> MediaWiki. For various reasons it would be better not to call it this way,
>> but still it is kind of an established brand as is Semantic Forms.
>>
>> The reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm and as you clarify that
>> there are no dependencies and it can also be uses with Cargo or standalone,
>> I don't see a problem.
>>
>> If you absolutely must, I would go with "Forms". Your extension is the
>> biggest, most developed and if the name is available, go ahead and grab
>> it....
>>
>> cheers,
>> Bernhard
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning reports. https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/305295220;132659582;e
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>

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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

chris tharp-2
In reply to this post by Hans Oleander
Yaron,

I agree with the census to keep the current name; however, since, in general, I hold Mediawiki isn't as accessible to new end users, as it should be, I would suggest that it is make absolutely clear that SF does not require Semantic Mediaiwki. I haven't looked at the extension page in a while so maybe it is already, but just stressing it should be clear (it would nice if Mediawiki used Semantic Mediawiki, or Cargo, inside extension pages to make searching for extensions easier -- but that's a problem for another day).

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 6, 2016, at 9:12 AM, Hans Oleander <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I very much agree with Bernhard' view and reasons.
> Thus I opt for keeping the name, otherwise change to "Forms".
>
> Cheers,
> Hans
>
> 2016-06-06 16:45 GMT+02:00 Krabina Bernhard <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I would not change the name. The same problems exist with Semantic
>> MediaWiki. For various reasons it would be better not to call it this way,
>> but still it is kind of an established brand as is Semantic Forms.
>>
>> The reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm and as you clarify that
>> there are no dependencies and it can also be uses with Cargo or standalone,
>> I don't see a problem.
>>
>> If you absolutely must, I would go with "Forms". Your extension is the
>> biggest, most developed and if the name is available, go ahead and grab
>> it....
>>
>> cheers,
>> Bernhard
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning reports. https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/305295220;132659582;e
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Yaron Koren-2
Hi,

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far; they are helpful.

I want to respond to one thing, which is Bernard's comment that "The
reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm". Personally, I think the word
"Semantic" in there does do a certain amount of harm, because it
causes confusion.
Depending on what people think of when they hear the word "semantic",  this
word can make people think that Semantic Forms is a Semantic Web tool, or a
Semantic MediaWiki tool (which it partially is, of course, but not fully),
or just something obscure and academic. Because our software is so
different from any other data-storage tools that most people are used to, I
think fighting confusion is our biggest challenge

On the other hand, renaming something can be harmful as well, and can also
cause a lot of confusion, especially in the short term. So there's a
tradeoff there.

-Yaron
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Yaron Koren-2
Sorry - Bernhard, not Bernard.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks to everyone for the comments so far; they are helpful.
>
> I want to respond to one thing, which is Bernard's comment that "The
> reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm". Personally, I think the word
> "Semantic" in there does do a certain amount of harm, because it causes confusion.
> Depending on what people think of when they hear the word "semantic",  this
> word can make people think that Semantic Forms is a Semantic Web tool, or a
> Semantic MediaWiki tool (which it partially is, of course, but not fully),
> or just something obscure and academic. Because our software is so
> different from any other data-storage tools that most people are used to, I
> think fighting confusion is our biggest challenge
>
> On the other hand, renaming something can be harmful as well, and can also
> cause a lot of confusion, especially in the short term. So there's a
> tradeoff there.
>
> -Yaron
>
>
>
>


--
WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
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Re: [SF] Renaming Semantic Forms?

Kirk McDermid
If we're looking for a name with more accurate/illuminating references,
then I prefer (of the ones I've seen so far) "Template Forms" because
that most clearly associates SF with the wiki object it really interacts
with.  Wondering if some name that hints at the ease-of-use of Forms (&
templates) for end users as compared to source editing would be better;
something like "FormEdit for Templates" (but less clumsy) would do the
trick?

Kirk

Asst. Professor of Philosophy
Chair, General Education Committee
Dickson Hall 454
P: 973-655-7317
Montclair State University

On 6/8/2016 9:48 AM, Yaron Koren wrote:

> Sorry - Bernhard, not Bernard.
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Yaron Koren <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks to everyone for the comments so far; they are helpful.
>>
>> I want to respond to one thing, which is Bernard's comment that "The
>> reference to Semantic doesn't do any harm". Personally, I think the word
>> "Semantic" in there does do a certain amount of harm, because it causes confusion.
>> Depending on what people think of when they hear the word "semantic",  this
>> word can make people think that Semantic Forms is a Semantic Web tool, or a
>> Semantic MediaWiki tool (which it partially is, of course, but not fully),
>> or just something obscure and academic. Because our software is so
>> different from any other data-storage tools that most people are used to, I
>> think fighting confusion is our biggest challenge
>>
>> On the other hand, renaming something can be harmful as well, and can also
>> cause a lot of confusion, especially in the short term. So there's a
>> tradeoff there.
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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