Sassarese and Sardinian

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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Bugzilla from nick1915@gmail.com
Romanesco is another variant :)

I'm not a Slavonic scholar, but Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are three
different languages...

Nick
2007/9/11, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]>:

>
> On 11/09/2007, Nicolò Zamperini <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We're talking about linguistics relevance of a language, not politics
>
> Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP? And why _do_ we have a
> Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian WP, and separate Indonesian and Malay WPs?
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
Hoi,
All the languages you mention had Wikipedias before the language committee
existed. So this is not really relevant in this discussion.
Thanks,
    GerardM

On 9/11/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 11/09/2007, Nicolò Zamperini <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We're talking about linguistics relevance of a language, not politics
>
> Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP? And why _do_ we have a
> Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian WP, and separate Indonesian and Malay WPs?
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

M. Williamson
So did sc.wp... that existed well before you guys. And now you want to
kick them out. Good job.

Mark

On 11/09/2007, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> All the languages you mention had Wikipedias before the language committee
> existed. So this is not really relevant in this discussion.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On 9/11/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 11/09/2007, Nicolò Zamperini <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > We're talking about linguistics relevance of a language, not politics
> >
> > Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP? And why _do_ we have a
> > Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian WP, and separate Indonesian and Malay WPs?
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from nick1915@gmail.com
Then why do we have a Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, which has articles
written in any of them?

Mark

On 11/09/2007, Nicolò Zamperini <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Romanesco is another variant :)
>
> I'm not a Slavonic scholar, but Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are three
> different languages...
>
> Nick
> 2007/9/11, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > On 11/09/2007, Nicolò Zamperini <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > We're talking about linguistics relevance of a language, not politics
> >
> > Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP? And why _do_ we have a
> > Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian WP, and separate Indonesian and Malay WPs?
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
The difference is evident and also my example.

ISO recognizes spoken languages. The aim of ISO is to cover all
possible languages present and future.

The aim of Wikipedia is to recognize "WRITTEN" languages because
Wikipedia is written and not oral.

You must read my answer in this point of view: also Dante some
centuries ago has understood that: to write a treatise the spoken
language is not sufficient.

Please read my words: if you impose a spoken language to be written
you are making a "original" choice because the people must invent a
written language.

I understand that the choice of ISO is simplest than other but in this
"complicated cases" the choice of written version must be
unmistakable.

Ilario

On 9/11/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hoi,
> Dante Alighieri did not speak Italian. The medieval notion of "noble aulic,
> courtier and distinguished" are not the same notions as we have today. They
> are also not the notions that are used to get recognition from such bodies
> as ISO and thank <insert your favourite deity> for that. It would for
> instance not allow for sign languages to be recognised as such.
>
> It is not that relevant what politicians call a language. The recognition
> that is valid for the Wikimedia Foundation is not decided by any particular
> political entity. There is literature in the Sardinian languages. It is
> however not possible for a constructed language to usurp the existing
> literature and claim it their own in order to get ISO recognition.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 9/10/07, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Correct, you analysis is closest to the reality.
> >
> > The problem is that Sardinian is the "polished" language. Sassarese,
> > Campidanese, Logudorese and Campidanese are dialects or spoken languages
> > or "vulgari eloquentiae" as Dante Alighieri could say.
> >
> > Dante Alighieri in XIII century understood the difference and he said
> > that a "vulgari eloquentia" to become a "literary" language must be:
> > noble, aulic, courtier and distinguished. It not sufficient to have a
> > spoken language or a literature (in this case we ares closer to the
> > dialect than a language), but a dialect must be used in politic, courts
> > of justice, litterature and so on (the difference of registries) to be a
> > language.
> >
> > For many centuries in Italy (for example) it has been discussed if the
> > Italian language would be a super-language or a "polished" dialect.
> > After discussions and discussions and discussions poetries and literary
> > men has chosen a "polished" dialect because there was not a politic
> > unity to impose a super-language.
> >
> > This is what happened in the past or what happens in present days: or a
> > dialect is stronger than other and it becomes a "polished" dialect with
> > difference of registries and it is used in politic, justice, literature
> > and media or a country impose a super-language mixing different dialects.
> >
> > Sardinia is following the second one, it is a mix of Logudorese and
> > Campidanese because they have got a literature and they are more
> > widespread than other two.
> >
> > Ilario
> > ====================
> > Wikimedia CH board member
> > Wikimedia Italy member
> >
> > Aphaia wrote:
> > > It sounds like a relation between Indonesian language (artificial, but
> > > official language of Indonesia) and native languages spoken in that
> > > state (Javanese, Sundanese etc etc). So it can be "official" and
> > > written language but not spoken. At least now.
> > >
> > > Since it is highly political, and not genuinely linguistics, I think
> > > we need to establish a general consensus toward the issue: if a
> > > certain local community or even limited to the government tries to
> > > standardize their language in an official but artificial manner, and
> > > they have no real speaker yet, we accept such language as part of our
> > > project. I am not sure if there is a general consensus to support such
> > > experimental activities on Wikimedia community, though, being aware we
> > > know some successful cases in the history.
> > >
> > > On 9/10/07, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I agree, but I have said that in Italy this situation is "normal". The
> > >> "Limba Sarda Comune" (translation is "Sardinian common language") is
> > >> not a spoken language.
> > >>
> > >> Some "collections" of languages has invented a superlanguage to write
> > >> official documents. The "Limba Sarda Comune" is similar to the Romansh
> > >> as "status". It has been invented (as Romansh) as official language of
> > >> a Region:
> > >>
> > >> "Recentemente (2006), La Regione Autonoma della Sardegna ha
> > >> individuato una varietà scritta mediana del sardo, denominata Limba
> > >> Sarda Comuna (LSC) da usare nei suoi documenti ufficiali in uscita,
> > >> con carattere quindi di coufficialità. La LSC si propone come varietà
> > >> intermedia tra le due varietà di sardo letterario già esistenti
> > >> (Campidanese e Logudorese)."
> > >>
> > >> The Limba Sarda is a superlanguage, created by the "Regione Autonoma
> > >> of Sardinia" combining Campidanese and Logudorese (two of for
> > >> sardinian dialects, but the more diffused) and it is used in official
> > >> documents. This is the first step to create a language: from dialect
> > >> to enrichment of registries.
> > >>
> > >> See here:
> > >>
> > >> http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif
> > >>
> > >> the orange parts cover Campidanese and Logudorese.
> > >>
> > >> The Gallurese is the third sardinian dialect closest to Corse
> > >> Language, the Sassarese (spoken in a small part of Sardinia) is the
> > >> fourth dialect in middle of Limba Sarda and Corse Language.
> > >>
> > >> You understand that is crazy to have a wikipedia in a dialect that has
> > >> not a grammar and not a dictionary well defined (Wikipedia is written
> > >> and not spoken). Probably the Sardinia Region has had the some problem
> > >> and for this reason has invented a "written" language.
> > >>
> > >> Ilario
> > >>
> > >> On 9/10/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hoi,
> > >>> What you write is completely beside the point. At issue is Sardinian
> > and
> > >>> Sassarese not Romansh or Lombard. As far as the language committee is
> > >>> concerned, there are four Sardinian languages and none of them is the
> > Limba
> > >>> Sarda Comune.
> > >>>
> > >>> We are quite adamant that a language needs recognition as such. There
> > are
> > >>> many issues with regard to this kind of recognition but the most
> > relevant
> > >>> part is that it is a process that takes time and involves many
> > experts. It
> > >>> takes so much time because the standard organisations do their best to
> > get
> > >>> it right. Where you describe dialects within a languages, it is not
> > specific
> > >>> to Italian languages. The issue of some people trying to come to a
> > "unified"
> > >>> language is not unique to Sardinia either.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>     GerardM
> > >>>
> > >>> On 9/10/07, Ilario Valdelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Sardinian is a collection of different dialects spoken in Sardinia.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The environment is similar to Romansh (which is a collection of
> > >>>> different languages as Surmiran, Sursilvan etc.) with the difference
> > >>>> that the super-language Romansh is officially recognized and has got
> > a
> > >>>> grammar and a dictionary.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The problem is generated because it's not clear what is language and
> > >>>> what is dialect.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Using dialect in some environment like Europa you could have
> > >>>> differences between two closest town. The nuances are very strong and
> > >>>> the language is not stable (there differences during the years and
> > >>>> influences).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Lumbard (lmo.wikipedia.org) for example has got hundred different
> > >>>> dialects and not a superlanguage officially recognized, and two
> > >>>> different speakers of two lumbard dialect are not completely
> > >>>> understandable each other.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ilario
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 9/10/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> There is a Wikipedia in the Sardinian
> > >>>>> language<http://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A0gina_printzipale>.
> > >>>>> It uses the sc ISO-639-1 code. What was known as Sardinian became
> > srd in
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> ISO-639-2. In the ISO-639-3 it was recognised as a
> > >>>>> macrolanguage<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M>;
> > >>>>> practically what was called Sardinian was split into four
> > >>>>> languages<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=srd>
> > >>>>> .
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The Italian government has officially recognised the Sardinian
> > language
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> or
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> the "Limba Sarda Comune". This is in essence a constructed language
> > as
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> tries to make one language out of the four "dialects". One of the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> effects
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> has been that some people prevent others from writing in one of the
> > four
> > >>>>> languages on the sc.wikpedia.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The language committee of the Wikimedia Foundation has a request to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> approve
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> a new language; one of the Sardinian languages, Sassarese with ISO
> > code
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> sdc.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> There are two problems to deal with:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>    - The "Limba Sarda Comune" is not recognised as a language
> > >>>>>    - The proponents of the "Limba Sarda Comune" reserve the
> > >>>>> sc.wikipediafor their language
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> This issue is political. The first thing that I understand when you
> > go
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> the official website <http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/> is
> > the
> > >>>>> notion of identity and indeed, to create one Sardinian identity it
> > would
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> be
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> instrumental to have a unifying language. However, the map of the
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Sardinian
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> languages <
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> is
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> clear, the island is divided in four.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Given that the language committee has as one of its rules that
> > political
> > >>>>> arguments are not accepted, there are a few conclusions that we
> > should
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> make.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>    1. Sassarese can have a conditional approval
> > >>>>>    2. We urge the proponents of the Limba Sarda Comune to ask for
> > the
> > >>>>>    recognition of this newly constructed language from ISO.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have had a chat with Debbie
> > >>>>> Garside<
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_board#Debbie_Garside
> > >about
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> all this, and I understand that it is necessary to apply for an
> > >>>>> ISO-639-3 code before an IANA language code is likely to be
> > approved. At
> > >>>>> least fifty published works in the Limba Sarda Comune will be
> > required.
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>      GerardM
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> foundation-l mailing list
> > >>>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> foundation-l mailing list
> > >>>> [hidden email]
> > >>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> foundation-l mailing list
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> foundation-l mailing list
> > >> [hidden email]
> > >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Marco Chiesa
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
GerardM wrote:

>It does however not change the facts about the Italian language. The notion
>that someone knows more a language or a country because he lives there or
>speaks the language is wrong. When I lived and worked in Great Britain, my
>spelling was better then the spelling of my colleagues and I have proof read
>their texts on many occasions.. Yes, I make mistakes but everything is
>relative.
>Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
>  
>
I think it all comes down to what linguists call a language and what
people who speak that language know. You may not know anything about
linguistics and speak correctly a language, and vice versa. For
languages which have an institution that defines what is correct and
what is not (e.g. Accademia della Crusca for Italian) it is easy to
adhere to all definitions, ISO codes, etc. However, when it comes to
regional languages/dialects, the situation is more complicated. For
Italy, there is an added problem that the traditional divisions between
dialects seems to be different from ISO defines as languages (for
example, Western and Eastern Lombard are considered to be two separate
groups of dialects, rather than variants of one Lombard language, that
no one in Lombard has ever heard of as such, but that's what linguist
say). I appreciate the effort of the LangCom to set rules that adhere to
an international standard, and you're right to say that if someone does
not agree with what ISO says they should complain to ISO and not to the
LangCom. But at the same time people who want to start writing an
encyclopaedia in their own dialect do not understand why they cannot do
it while their neighbours cannot (sometimes people from Calabria ask why
they cannot have a wiki while Sicilian have, and they may feel offended
if they're told that their language is, actually, Sicilian). Sardinian
is a different story, because traditionally Italian people are taught
that Sardinian and Friulian are languages and the rest is pretty much
dialects of Italian. But again, it is difficult to explain to someone
who knows nothing about linguistics why Sassarese would be ok and
Bergamasco is not.

Cruccone (who knows very little about linguistics)



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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Debbie Garside
In reply to this post by Ilario Valdelli
Ilario wrote:

> The problem is generated because it's not clear what is
> language and what is dialect.

If ever you solve that one let me and the rest of the world's linguists know
:-)

I think you should stop trying to classify linguistic entities and look at
each in  its own right.  Once ISO 639-6 is published, when we receive a new
registration request, a number of questions will be asked that will need to
be answered prior to the requested entity being passed for inclusion within
ISO 639-6. The most relevant of these are:

What are the closest related entities?
What is the difference between the new entity and it's closest relations?

In considering these questions you may reasonably have your answer.  The
questions regarding previously created Wikis should be tackled as secondary.

It is for the language committee to decide whether the differences warrant a
new wiki/code - ISO standards can only serve as guidance and the ISO 639 JAC
go through much the same process as the WikiMedia Language Committee (I
think).  If the language committee feel that there is enough evidence for
the entity to be considered separately then the ISO 639-3 RA should be
approached.  If they fail to issue a code then the next step is to approach
IETF-Languages; who generally will not have a problem issuing once the ISO
639 JAC have refused (assuming enough evidence of the entity is presented).

Best wishes

Debbie





> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Ilario Valdelli
> Sent: 10 September 2007 13:33
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian
>
> Sardinian is a collection of different dialects spoken in Sardinia.
>
> The environment is similar to Romansh (which is a collection
> of different languages as Surmiran, Sursilvan etc.) with the
> difference that the super-language Romansh is officially
> recognized and has got a grammar and a dictionary.
>
> The problem is generated because it's not clear what is
> language and what is dialect.
>
> Using dialect in some environment like Europa you could have
> differences between two closest town. The nuances are very
> strong and the language is not stable (there differences
> during the years and influences).
>
> The Lumbard (lmo.wikipedia.org) for example has got hundred
> different dialects and not a superlanguage officially
> recognized, and two different speakers of two lumbard dialect
> are not completely understandable each other.
>
> Ilario
>
> On 9/10/07, GerardM <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There is a Wikipedia in the Sardinian
> > language<http://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A0gina_printzipale>.
> > It uses the sc ISO-639-1 code. What was known as Sardinian
> became srd
> > in the ISO-639-2. In the ISO-639-3 it was recognised as a
> > macrolanguage<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/scope.asp#M>;
> > practically what was called Sardinian was split into four
> > languages<http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=srd>
> > .
> >
> > The Italian government has officially recognised the Sardinian
> > language or the "Limba Sarda Comune". This is in essence a
> constructed
> > language as it tries to make one language out of the four
> "dialects".
> > One of the effects has been that some people prevent others from
> > writing in one of the four languages on the sc.wikpedia.
> >
> > The language committee of the Wikimedia Foundation has a request to
> > approve a new language; one of the Sardinian languages,
> Sassarese with ISO code sdc.
> >
> > There are two problems to deal with:
> >
> >    - The "Limba Sarda Comune" is not recognised as a language
> >    - The proponents of the "Limba Sarda Comune" reserve the
> > sc.wikipediafor their language
> >
> > This issue is political. The first thing that I understand
> when you go
> > to the official website
> <http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasarda/>
> > is the notion of identity and indeed, to create one
> Sardinian identity
> > it would be instrumental to have a unifying language.
> However, the map
> > of the Sardinian languages
> >
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lingue_di_Sardegna_mod.gif
> > is clear, the island is divided in four.
> >
> > Given that the language committee has as one of its rules that
> > political arguments are not accepted, there are a few
> conclusions that we should make.
> >
> >    1. Sassarese can have a conditional approval
> >    2. We urge the proponents of the Limba Sarda Comune to
> ask for the
> >    recognition of this newly constructed language from ISO.
> >
> > I have had a chat with Debbie
> >
> Garside<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_board#Debbie_Gars
> > ide>about all this, and I understand that it is necessary
> to apply for
> > an
> > ISO-639-3 code before an IANA language code is likely to be
> approved.
> > At least fifty published works in the Limba Sarda Comune
> will be required.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>





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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

rfrangi@libero.it
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
>Mark Williamson  wrote:
> Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP?

Because no one requested it?

Roberto (Snowdog)


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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

M. Williamson
Yes, it has been requested on more than one occasion. It went stagnant
because Romanesco is considered part of Italian by ethnologue.

Mark

On 11/09/2007, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >Mark Williamson  wrote:
> > Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP?
>
> Because no one requested it?
>
> Roberto (Snowdog)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Leggi GRATIS le tue mail con il telefonino i-mode™ di Wind
> http://i-mode.wind.it/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


--
Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.

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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Senpai-2
In reply to this post by Gatto Nero
Ya maybe.... lol ^_^

We study that for years but he think that he know more than us about that
^_-.

Senpai

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gatto Nero" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian

> 2007/9/11, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
>> Hoi,
>> FYI "Standard Italian, adopted by the state after the unification of
>> Italy,
>> is based on Tuscan dialect and is somewhat intermediate between
>> Italo-Dalmatian languages of the South and Northern Italian dialects of
>> the
>> North." This is what the English wikipedia has to say about it. This
>> indicates clearly that Italian was constructed at the time.
>> Thanks,
>>     GerardM
>
> Hoi GerardM,
> your opinions about Italy are always clear.
> But could you think that maybe some italians may know about their
> language MORE than en.wiki? Maybe, uh.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 


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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Senpai-2
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Scusa se te lo dico ma, se conosci così bene l'Italia e l'italiano dovre,
per prima cosa, essere in grado di comprendere in modo unitario e completo
questo testo e, in seconda istanza, esser ein grado di differenziarlo in
modo compito rispetto agli altri modi di parlare nel nostro paese. Deto ciò,
la nostra lingua è, oltre che materia di studi, qualcosa che per noi è
importante, qualcosa che non solo vinene studiato ma che viene sentito,
rielaborato e compreso, non si può ridurre tutto a degli standard dati da
qualcuno che non, magari, analizzato la questione dal suo interno.

Forse potresti, per una volta, cercare di fidarti di chi ne sa un po' più di
te ed oltre ad avere qualche amico in Italia, magari è anche cittadino di
questa nazione.


Senpai (sorry but if Gerard know so much about Italy.... )

From: "GerardM" <[hidden email]>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian

> Hoi,
> ??? I love Italy, some of my best friends are Italian. I even lived in
> Italy
> for a while. !!!!
>
> It does however not change the facts about the Italian language. The
> notion
> that someone knows more a language or a country because he lives there or
> speaks the language is wrong. When I lived and worked in Great Britain, my
> spelling was better then the spelling of my colleagues and I have proof
> read
> their texts on many occasions.. Yes, I make mistakes but everything is
> relative.
> Thanks,
>    GerardM
>
> On 9/11/07, Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 2007/9/11, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
>> > Hoi,
>> > FYI "Standard Italian, adopted by the state after the unification of
>> Italy,
>> > is based on Tuscan dialect and is somewhat intermediate between
>> > Italo-Dalmatian languages of the South and Northern Italian dialects of
>> the
>> > North." This is what the English wikipedia has to say about it. This
>> > indicates clearly that Italian was constructed at the time.
>> > Thanks,
>> >     GerardM
>>
>> Hoi GerardM,
>> your opinions about Italy are always clear.
>> But could you think that maybe some italians may know about their
>> language MORE than en.wiki? Maybe, uh.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l 


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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Ilario Valdelli
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
The problem of ethnologue is clear to the linguistic searcher, for
Ethnologue all is language, all is called language. The ISO need to
have more languages as possible and the association with Ethnologue is
done.

Ethnologue has understood to have made a BIG mistake in the past and
in this moment they are correcting the problem considering 1st
language and 2nd language for every people.

If the difference between dialect and language is complicated, please
refer to difference between "spoken" and "written" language.

Ilario

On 9/11/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes, it has been requested on more than one occasion. It went stagnant
> because Romanesco is considered part of Italian by ethnologue.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/09/2007, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >Mark Williamson  wrote:
> > > Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP?
> >
> > Because no one requested it?
> >
> > Roberto (Snowdog)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------
> > Leggi GRATIS le tue mail con il telefonino i-mode™ di Wind
> > http://i-mode.wind.it/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> --
> Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Debbie Garside
Hi Ilario

As Editor of ISO 639-6, I am fully aware of the differences between written
and spoken language.  Indeed, it was my BSI Committee that first raised this
issue with the ISO committee wrt the need for separate codes for written and
spoken language/varieties.  Again, ISO 639-6 does not classify but deals
with ALL linguistic entities from the highest level of phyla to the lowest
level of component of dialect and orthography.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Debbie



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
> Of Ilario Valdelli
> Sent: 11 September 2007 13:26
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian
>
> The problem of ethnologue is clear to the linguistic
> searcher, for Ethnologue all is language, all is called
> language. The ISO need to have more languages as possible and
> the association with Ethnologue is done.
>
> Ethnologue has understood to have made a BIG mistake in the
> past and in this moment they are correcting the problem
> considering 1st language and 2nd language for every people.
>
> If the difference between dialect and language is
> complicated, please refer to difference between "spoken" and
> "written" language.
>
> Ilario
>
> On 9/11/07, Mark Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Yes, it has been requested on more than one occasion. It
> went stagnant
> > because Romanesco is considered part of Italian by ethnologue.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 11/09/2007, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >Mark Williamson  wrote:
> > > > Then why don't we have a Romanesco WP?
> > >
> > > Because no one requested it?
> > >
> > > Roberto (Snowdog)
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > > Leggi GRATIS le tue mail con il telefonino i-mode™ di Wind
> > > http://i-mode.wind.it/
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>





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Re: Sassarese and Sardinian

Debbie Garside
In reply to this post by Senpai-2
I don't find this useful in forwarding the discussion.

Debbie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of senpai
> Sent: 11 September 2007 13:24
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian
>
> Scusa se te lo dico ma, se conosci così bene l'Italia e
> l'italiano dovre, per prima cosa, essere in grado di
> comprendere in modo unitario e completo questo testo e, in
> seconda istanza, esser ein grado di differenziarlo in modo
> compito rispetto agli altri modi di parlare nel nostro paese.
> Deto ciò, la nostra lingua è, oltre che materia di studi,
> qualcosa che per noi è importante, qualcosa che non solo
> vinene studiato ma che viene sentito, rielaborato e compreso,
> non si può ridurre tutto a degli standard dati da qualcuno
> che non, magari, analizzato la questione dal suo interno.
>
> Forse potresti, per una volta, cercare di fidarti di chi ne
> sa un po' più di te ed oltre ad avere qualche amico in
> Italia, magari è anche cittadino di questa nazione.
>
>
> Senpai (sorry but if Gerard know so much about Italy.... )
>
> From: "GerardM" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Sassarese and Sardinian
>
> > Hoi,
> > ??? I love Italy, some of my best friends are Italian. I
> even lived in
> > Italy for a while. !!!!
> >
> > It does however not change the facts about the Italian
> language. The
> > notion that someone knows more a language or a country because he
> > lives there or speaks the language is wrong. When I lived
> and worked
> > in Great Britain, my spelling was better then the spelling of my
> > colleagues and I have proof read their texts on many
> occasions.. Yes,
> > I make mistakes but everything is relative.
> > Thanks,
> >    GerardM
> >
> > On 9/11/07, Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> 2007/9/11, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > FYI "Standard Italian, adopted by the state after the
> unification
> >> > of
> >> Italy,
> >> > is based on Tuscan dialect and is somewhat intermediate between
> >> > Italo-Dalmatian languages of the South and Northern Italian
> >> > dialects of
> >> the
> >> > North." This is what the English wikipedia has to say about it.
> >> > This indicates clearly that Italian was constructed at the time.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >     GerardM
> >>
> >> Hoi GerardM,
> >> your opinions about Italy are always clear.
> >> But could you think that maybe some italians may know about their
> >> language MORE than en.wiki? Maybe, uh.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>





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