Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

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Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Raimond Spekking-2
Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink [1]
which is set to true per default.

During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that new
editors are confused about the combined login page. They tried to
register new accounts on the login page.

Surely, these observations are not representative but I think that the
usability could be improved by setting $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false

If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and would be
happy if someone could point me to the discussion.

Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for all WMF
wikis.

Raimond.


[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgUseCombinedLoginLink


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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Rob Lanphier-4
Hi Raimond,

I don't recall discussions on this topic.  I think this change should
be reviewed for usability, but it seems on the surface an improvement.
 It's worth filing a shell bug if the discussion here turns out well
or goes by with no comment.  In fact, we should probably just enable
it on mediawiki.org if there's no objection on list.

Note, there's been a lot of research in this area:
http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Account_Creation_Improvement_Project

I'm not in a good position to summarize this (would need to read it
first) ;-), but I imagine that it's at least a little relevant to a
decision on this.

I'll see if I can nudge someone more directly involved with usability
to comment.

Rob

On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Raimond Spekking
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink [1]
> which is set to true per default.
>
> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that new
> editors are confused about the combined login page. They tried to
> register new accounts on the login page.
>
> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think that the
> usability could be improved by setting $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>
> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and would be
> happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>
> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for all WMF
> wikis.
>
> Raimond.
>
>
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgUseCombinedLoginLink
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Tim Starling-2
In reply to this post by Raimond Spekking-2
On 28/05/12 03:50, Raimond Spekking wrote:

> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink
> [1] which is set to true per default.
>
> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that
> new editors are confused about the combined login page. They
> tried to register new accounts on the login page.
>
> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think
> that the usability could be improved by setting
> $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>
> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and
> would be happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>
> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for
> all WMF wikis.

Can't it be set to false by default?

They were combined to start with because the forms were combined.
Then the developer who split the forms was too lazy to fix the
skins, so for years, everyone who wanted to create an account was
forced to click through the login page. I always figured it was a
bug. Why would anyone want them combined?

-- Tim Starling


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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

K. Peachey-2
In reply to this post by Rob Lanphier-4
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Rob Lanphier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> or goes by with no comment.  In fact, we should probably just enable
> it on mediawiki.org if there's no objection on list.

Lets not?
A. Stuff like this should be the same no matter where you are on the cluster
B. The MW Wiki community is more the developer side of things so I
doubt there is as many people having issues understanding it
C. This whole "lets test every little thing on MW Wiki" seems
misplaced, since we are a smaller more aimed project wiki (Development
of MediaWiki and subsequent support)

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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
Tim Starling wrote:

> On 28/05/12 03:50, Raimond Spekking wrote:
>> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink
>> [1] which is set to true per default.
>>
>> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that
>> new editors are confused about the combined login page. They
>> tried to register new accounts on the login page.
>>
>> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think
>> that the usability could be improved by setting
>> $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>>
>> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and
>> would be happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>>
>> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for
>> all WMF wikis.
>
> Can't it be set to false by default?
>
> They were combined to start with because the forms were combined.
> Then the developer who split the forms was too lazy to fix the
> skins, so for years, everyone who wanted to create an account was
> forced to click through the login page. I always figured it was a
> bug. Why would anyone want them combined?

Someone might want the links combined if they present both the create
account and login forms on the same page. Wikia used to do this. Twitter and
Facebook do this currently at <https://twitter.com/> and
<https://www.facebook.com> when you're not logged in. This is not a reason
to not flip the default on Wikimedia wikis, but it is perhaps a reason to
keep the configuration variable around.

I'll also note that creating an account is still considered a sub-type of
logging in (Special:UserLogin?type=signup), though Special:CreateAccount
properly redirects. I think it's a bit strange that they are not two
separate forms completely (Special:UserLogin and Special:CreateAccount).

MZMcBride



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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Raimond Spekking-2
Am 28.05.2012 18:02, schrieb MZMcBride:

> Someone might want the links combined if they present both the create
> account and login forms on the same page. Wikia used to do this. Twitter and
> Facebook do this currently at <https://twitter.com/> and
> <https://www.facebook.com> when you're not logged in.

Yes, but both forms are better than our 2 forms because they have the
input fields for login and registration on _one_ page. IMO more clearly
for newbies.

 This is not a reason
> to not flip the default on Wikimedia wikis, but it is perhaps a reason to
> keep the configuration variable around.

Sure, keep the config var for b/c.

>
> I'll also note that creating an account is still considered a sub-type of
> logging in (Special:UserLogin?type=signup), though Special:CreateAccount
> properly redirects. I think it's a bit strange that they are not two
> separate forms completely (Special:UserLogin and Special:CreateAccount).

That's bug 15700 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15700

>
> MZMcBride

Raimond.


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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Daniel Friesen-4
In reply to this post by Tim Starling-2
On Sun, 27 May 2012 21:18:26 -0700, Tim Starling <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> On 28/05/12 03:50, Raimond Spekking wrote:
>> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink
>> [1] which is set to true per default.
>>
>> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that
>> new editors are confused about the combined login page. They
>> tried to register new accounts on the login page.
>>
>> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think
>> that the usability could be improved by setting
>> $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>>
>> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and
>> would be happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>>
>> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for
>> all WMF wikis.
>
> Can't it be set to false by default?
>
> They were combined to start with because the forms were combined.
> Then the developer who split the forms was too lazy to fix the
> skins, so for years, everyone who wanted to create an account was
> forced to click through the login page. I always figured it was a
> bug. Why would anyone want them combined?
>
> -- Tim Starling

+1

I created $wgUseCombinedLoginLink partially due to skinning where some  
skins want to have separate links to style in different ways (Skin has a  
method that lets a skin override the setting for itself) and also looking  
at a number of other websites and finding that we are practically the only  
website that does something like that.

I set it to true by default because that was the current expected behavior  
and didn't want to bother with the usual backlash from the en.wp community  
whenever you touch anything to do with how MW looks or the markup it  
outputs.

But if we have found a usability reason to have separate links then I see  
absolutely no reason to set it false by default on all wiki.
In fact I'd almost say we could go ahead and delete the setting and make  
MW always have two separate links.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Daniel Friesen-4
In reply to this post by MZMcBride-2
On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:02:35 -0700, MZMcBride <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tim Starling wrote:
>> On 28/05/12 03:50, Raimond Spekking wrote:
>>> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink
>>> [1] which is set to true per default.
>>>
>>> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that
>>> new editors are confused about the combined login page. They
>>> tried to register new accounts on the login page.
>>>
>>> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think
>>> that the usability could be improved by setting
>>> $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>>>
>>> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and
>>> would be happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>>>
>>> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for
>>> all WMF wikis.
>>
>> Can't it be set to false by default?
>>
>> They were combined to start with because the forms were combined.
>> Then the developer who split the forms was too lazy to fix the
>> skins, so for years, everyone who wanted to create an account was
>> forced to click through the login page. I always figured it was a
>> bug. Why would anyone want them combined?
>
> Someone might want the links combined if they present both the create
> account and login forms on the same page. Wikia used to do this. Twitter  
> and
> Facebook do this currently at <https://twitter.com/> and
> <https://www.facebook.com> when you're not logged in. This is not a  
> reason
> to not flip the default on Wikimedia wikis, but it is perhaps a reason to
> keep the configuration variable around.

Facebook and Twitter do that on their homepage and don't even bother with  
login links. The design of those doesn't really fit discussion of login  
page links.

- To have a combined form like that you have to create a brand new special  
page; you can't do that within our current Special:UserLogin
- We don't provide a way to simply override the special page used for  
login links
Hence with these two facts that means it's impossible to make an alternate  
login form without replacing stuff inside the personal_urls by using hooks  
and constructing your own arrays to put in the list.
Wikia doesn't even bother with hooks, they just make core modifications  
for this stuff.

So I don't believe this or anything Wikia does on the topic is a valid  
reason to keep the configuration setting around. It's not needed for those  
kind of modifications.
Heck, it's because of one of Wikia's old skins that I split the links in  
the first place.

> I'll also note that creating an account is still considered a sub-type of
> logging in (Special:UserLogin?type=signup), though Special:CreateAccount
> properly redirects. I think it's a bit strange that they are not two
> separate forms completely (Special:UserLogin and Special:CreateAccount).
>
> MZMcBride

I believe there are some backend bits that still link the two together.  
Though perhaps someone can still manage to make the create account form  
served from Special:CreateAccount while the backend is still in that state.
Though, this area of MW has probably been overdue for an overhaul for  
awhile.

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Steven Walling
On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Daniel Friesen
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> - To have a combined form like that you have to create a brand new special
> page; you can't do that within our current Special:UserLogin
> - We don't provide a way to simply override the special page used for
> login links
> Hence with these two facts that means it's impossible to make an alternate
> login form without replacing stuff inside the personal_urls by using hooks
> and constructing your own arrays to put in the list.
> Wikia doesn't even bother with hooks, they just make core modifications
> for this stuff.
>

Just FYI, work is being done to decouple account creation from
Special:UserLogin. The initial SignupAPI extension was a GSOC project, and
it's currently undergoing code review etc. This should allow us to
implement some long overdue improvements, such as:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34447

The relevant bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36225

Steven
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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Happy Melon-2
On 28 May 2012 22:14, Steven Walling <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Daniel Friesen
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > - To have a combined form like that you have to create a brand new
> special
> > page; you can't do that within our current Special:UserLogin
> > - We don't provide a way to simply override the special page used for
> > login links
> > Hence with these two facts that means it's impossible to make an
> alternate
> > login form without replacing stuff inside the personal_urls by using
> hooks
> > and constructing your own arrays to put in the list.
> > Wikia doesn't even bother with hooks, they just make core modifications
> > for this stuff.
> >
>
> Just FYI, work is being done to decouple account creation from
> Special:UserLogin. The initial SignupAPI extension was a GSOC project, and
> it's currently undergoing code review etc. This should allow us to
> implement some long overdue improvements, such as:
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34447
>
> The relevant bug: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36225
>

This corner of MediaWiki is horrifically old and rusty; I tried a big
refactoring a while ago but it broke CentralAuth and so got pulled a couple
of times.  I might have another go now we have labs up and running and we
can easily set up a SUL domain to match the cluster's.  SignupAPI basically
copied mountains of code from LoginForm, IIRC; wasn't a real refactoring
(could be mis-remembering though).

--HM
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Re: Set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink = false on WMF cluster?

Daniel Friesen-4
In reply to this post by Raimond Spekking-2
On Sun, 27 May 2012 10:50:44 -0700, Raimond Spekking  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since MediaWiki 1.18 we have the variable $wgUseCombinedLoginLink [1]
> which is set to true per default.
>
> During edit workshops with students and seniors I registered that new
> editors are confused about the combined login page. They tried to
> register new accounts on the login page.
>
> Surely, these observations are not representative but I think that the
> usability could be improved by setting $wgUseCombinedLoginLink=false
>
> If I missed a prior discussion about this issue I apologize and would be
> happy if someone could point me to the discussion.
>
> Otherwise I suggest to set $wgUseCombinedLoginLink to false for all WMF
> wikis.
>
> Raimond.
>
>
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgUseCombinedLoginLink
>

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/19781

--
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]

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