Short message about reference formatting

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Short message about reference formatting

Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
Please translate:  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing/Columns_for_references  



This is 8-sentence message is about a change to how references are formatted.  

There is one perhaps tricky thing about the translation, and that is what a "reference" is.  The thing that's changing is how <ref> notes are displayed on wikis.  On the English Wikipedia, these have been called "refs", "references", "citations", "footnotes", "notes", and more.  I've included a few of these synonyms for the English version, but please translate it into whatever makes sense for your language.  If your language has standardized on one term, then please just use that one term.

This message will be sent next week to all of the Wikiquotes, and later (with a different date) will be re-used for other projects (Wikipedias, Wikivoyages, Wikibooks, Wikiversity, etc.). 

As always, THANK YOU for your work.  Translation is the true language of an international movement.
--
Sherry Snyder (WhatamIdoing)
Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Short message about reference formatting

Philippe Verdy
That feature was already implemented in many wikis by enclosing the "<references />" custom tag within a HTML standard <div> element with CSS; this was generally done using a references template instead of the tag directly.

What does this mean ?: the "references" tag may now generate its own multicolumn layout, and the existing multicolun div container will split it again in columns because column width/gap/rulers as wel as paddings and margins of the container will interact badly...

Howeer what we still expect to see:
* Please remove the top and bottom margins/paddings that are added to bulleted or numbered lists, or definitions lists (typically used for indenting with ":"), or blockquotes, when they occur inside a multicolumn container : this causes columns to not line up correcly. We don't need these top/bottom margins, it's up to the multicolumn container to set them for all columns simultaneously, and not just the top of the first column and bottom of the last column!)



2017-07-11 21:54 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Please translate:  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing/Columns_for_references  



This is 8-sentence message is about a change to how references are formatted.  

There is one perhaps tricky thing about the translation, and that is what a "reference" is.  The thing that's changing is how <ref> notes are displayed on wikis.  On the English Wikipedia, these have been called "refs", "references", "citations", "footnotes", "notes", and more.  I've included a few of these synonyms for the English version, but please translate it into whatever makes sense for your language.  If your language has standardized on one term, then please just use that one term.

This message will be sent next week to all of the Wikiquotes, and later (with a different date) will be re-used for other projects (Wikipedias, Wikivoyages, Wikibooks, Wikiversity, etc.). 

As always, THANK YOU for your work.  Translation is the true language of an international movement.
--
Sherry Snyder (WhatamIdoing)
Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation

_______________________________________________
Translators-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l



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Re: Short message about reference formatting

Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder
The fact that a minority of wikis have implemented CSS hacks to do this is exactly why this message needs to reach everyone.  Communities can either remove the old CSS (recommended), or ask to be taken off the list for default-on (acceptable).


On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:24 AM Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
That feature was already implemented in many wikis by enclosing the "<references />" custom tag within a HTML standard <div> element with CSS; this was generally done using a references template instead of the tag directly.

What does this mean ?: the "references" tag may now generate its own multicolumn layout, and the existing multicolun div container will split it again in columns because column width/gap/rulers as wel as paddings and margins of the container will interact badly...

Howeer what we still expect to see:
* Please remove the top and bottom margins/paddings that are added to bulleted or numbered lists, or definitions lists (typically used for indenting with ":"), or blockquotes, when they occur inside a multicolumn container : this causes columns to not line up correcly. We don't need these top/bottom margins, it's up to the multicolumn container to set them for all columns simultaneously, and not just the top of the first column and bottom of the last column!)



2017-07-11 21:54 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
Please translate:  https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing/Columns_for_references  



This is 8-sentence message is about a change to how references are formatted.  

There is one perhaps tricky thing about the translation, and that is what a "reference" is.  The thing that's changing is how <ref> notes are displayed on wikis.  On the English Wikipedia, these have been called "refs", "references", "citations", "footnotes", "notes", and more.  I've included a few of these synonyms for the English version, but please translate it into whatever makes sense for your language.  If your language has standardized on one term, then please just use that one term.

This message will be sent next week to all of the Wikiquotes, and later (with a different date) will be re-used for other projects (Wikipedias, Wikivoyages, Wikibooks, Wikiversity, etc.). 

As always, THANK YOU for your work.  Translation is the true language of an international movement.
--
Sherry Snyder (WhatamIdoing)
Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation

_______________________________________________
Translators-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l


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Sherry Snyder (WhatamIdoing)
Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Short message about reference formatting

Philippe Verdy
This is absolutely not CSS "hack", but standard CSS feature.

Only broken by some bad CSS inserted by default in MediaWiki (notably for all bulleted/numbered/definition lists, both in the wiki or HTML syntax, with their top/bottom margins that can't work nicely in multicolumn containers where these margins should be moved)... but that could be solved when we'll have the possibility to attach stylesheets to wiki pages instead of in each element to fix what default MediaWiki stylesheets forces everywhere.

Another thing that Mediawiki still does not accept (even though they are completely harmless) are columns groups in tables (OK: there's no wikisyntax for them in wikitables, but I don't see why colgroup elements, or even thead/tbody's/tfoot elements are forbidden, even if they are also needed for accessibility of tables: this requires hacking tables with lot of CSS)

And this is not a minority of wikis that use such technic (even if they don't have necessarily a very simple template to do that easily for references): there are lot of pages using that.

Multicolumnn rendering is often far better than using tables with a static number of columns (that won't fit very well, on narrow smartphone screens or on large screens where lot of horizontal space is left unused). Multicolumn output could also be used for galleries, without necessarily using the REAL CSS+Javascript hack defined with mode="hover*".

More generally we lack some basic features in Mediawiki to handle dynamic/flexible layout patterns that will work across all display sizes. There are now great layout frameworks used on modern websites (so these sites are usable on all screens, and will still remain "accessible" with various text sizes, zoom levels, or display resolutions between low-dpi displays like TVs and high-dpi displays like smartphones).

So this proposal is in fact very minor: this was not really needed, the needs are clearly elsewhere. This is a solution for a problem that actually does not exist: when there's no problem, it's better not to fix it. This proposal is then a non-solution...

I'll better welcome the addition of stylesheets per page, possibly also per templates (not generated multiple times at each inclusion, but just referenced only once on pages that will use transclude them): this was recently announced and will solve lot of problems and will help simplifying lot of templates, and avoiding many errors and simplifying the edition of articles or tables.

2017-07-13 0:07 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
The fact that a minority of wikis have implemented CSS hacks to do this is exactly why this message needs to reach everyone.  Communities can either remove the old CSS (recommended), or ask to be taken off the list for default-on (acceptable).
 

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Re: Short message about reference formatting

Joe Sutherland
Hi,

Just a reminder that this is the translators-l mailing list, which is probably not the ideal place to talk about this.

I would look at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T33597 for context, and Sherry will likely know where your comments can be better placed. 

thanks!
Joe

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Joe Sutherland
Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation

On 12 July 2017 at 17:04, Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is absolutely not CSS "hack", but standard CSS feature.

Only broken by some bad CSS inserted by default in MediaWiki (notably for all bulleted/numbered/definition lists, both in the wiki or HTML syntax, with their top/bottom margins that can't work nicely in multicolumn containers where these margins should be moved)... but that could be solved when we'll have the possibility to attach stylesheets to wiki pages instead of in each element to fix what default MediaWiki stylesheets forces everywhere.

Another thing that Mediawiki still does not accept (even though they are completely harmless) are columns groups in tables (OK: there's no wikisyntax for them in wikitables, but I don't see why colgroup elements, or even thead/tbody's/tfoot elements are forbidden, even if they are also needed for accessibility of tables: this requires hacking tables with lot of CSS)

And this is not a minority of wikis that use such technic (even if they don't have necessarily a very simple template to do that easily for references): there are lot of pages using that.

Multicolumnn rendering is often far better than using tables with a static number of columns (that won't fit very well, on narrow smartphone screens or on large screens where lot of horizontal space is left unused). Multicolumn output could also be used for galleries, without necessarily using the REAL CSS+Javascript hack defined with mode="hover*".

More generally we lack some basic features in Mediawiki to handle dynamic/flexible layout patterns that will work across all display sizes. There are now great layout frameworks used on modern websites (so these sites are usable on all screens, and will still remain "accessible" with various text sizes, zoom levels, or display resolutions between low-dpi displays like TVs and high-dpi displays like smartphones).

So this proposal is in fact very minor: this was not really needed, the needs are clearly elsewhere. This is a solution for a problem that actually does not exist: when there's no problem, it's better not to fix it. This proposal is then a non-solution...

I'll better welcome the addition of stylesheets per page, possibly also per templates (not generated multiple times at each inclusion, but just referenced only once on pages that will use transclude them): this was recently announced and will solve lot of problems and will help simplifying lot of templates, and avoiding many errors and simplifying the edition of articles or tables.

2017-07-13 0:07 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <[hidden email]>:
The fact that a minority of wikis have implemented CSS hacks to do this is exactly why this message needs to reach everyone.  Communities can either remove the old CSS (recommended), or ask to be taken off the list for default-on (acceptable).
 

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