Should we be declaring war on vandals?

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Should we be declaring war on vandals?

The Cunctator
Should any of us declare war on vandals?

Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
would rather have their edits last, influencing others?

Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?

Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?

Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Ray Saintonge
The Cunctator wrote:

>Should any of us declare war on vandals?
>
>Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
>shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
>would rather have their edits last, influencing others?
>
>Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
>vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?
>
>Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?
>
>Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.
>
The more wars you declare, the greater your chances of losing wars.

War on terror, war on crime, war on poverty, war on drugs, war on
vandals.  Such an approach as easily encourages what it seeks to
destroy.  The Vandals were one of the enemies of the Roman Empire; can
we do as well against them.

In the Nov./Dec.2005  issue of "Adbusters" there is an interesting
quote. "Why, of course, the people don't want war ... That is
understood.  But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who
determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people
along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a
parliament or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people
can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.  That is easy.  All
you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the
pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.  It
works the same in any country."  Herman Goering had a lot to be
retrospective about when he said that in 1946.

Some might get literal about the term country, and argue that Wikipedia
is not a country.  But if we are not a country, what the hell are we
doing declaring wars.

Ec

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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Jtkiefer
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
The Cunctator wrote:

> Should any of us declare war on vandals?
>
> Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
> shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
> would rather have their edits last, influencing others?
>
> Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
> vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?
>
> Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?
>
> Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.
>  
Jimbo Wales declaring a war on vandals would be in my opinion as useful
as George W. Bush (idiot!!!) declaring a war on terror, it means
absolutely nothing and the distinction between vandals and vandalism is
an extremely blurry line.

-Jtkiefer
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
The Cunctator wrote:

> Should any of us declare war on vandals?
>
> Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
> shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
> would rather have their edits last, influencing others?
>
> Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
> vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?
>
> Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?
>
> Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.

Who's been declaring war on vandals?

Chris

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  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
Vandals are often trollish.
Don't feed the trolls, just clean up after them and only block when you need
to.

Mgm


On 2/4/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The Cunctator wrote:
> > Should any of us declare war on vandals?
> >
> > Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
> > shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
> > would rather have their edits last, influencing others?
> >
> > Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
> > vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?
> >
> > Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?
> >
> > Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.
>
> Who's been declaring war on vandals?
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Jenkinson
> [hidden email]
>
> "Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
> -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> Vandals are often trollish.
> Don't feed the trolls, just clean up after them and only block when you need
> to.

I agree; yet am confused as how this is a response to what I wrote.

Chris

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  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
My email program shows it as a reply to the thread, not just your message.

Mgm
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> My email program shows it as a reply to the thread, not just your message.

I'd be really grateful if you could hit reply on the email which you are
replying to, rather than a different one. It's more helpful for those of
us with different email clients. :)

Chris

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"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 2/4/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> > My email program shows it as a reply to the thread, not just your
> message.
>
> I'd be really grateful if you could hit reply on the email which you are
> replying to, rather than a different one. It's more helpful for those of
> us with different email clients. :)
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Jenkinson
> [hidden email]


I could, but if I did that I would mess up the listings in GMail which I use
myself.
I can't make everyone happy at the same time.
I'll try quoting part of the messages I reply to instead, which hopefully
makes as much people happy as possible.

Mgm
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson
MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> I could, but if I did that I would mess up the listings in GMail which I use
> myself.
> I can't make everyone happy at the same time.
> I'll try quoting part of the messages I reply to instead, which hopefully
> makes as much people happy as possible.

Why does it mess up the listing in Gmail? If that's the case, Gmail is
broken.

Chris

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"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Dave-82
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
Wikipedia hasn't declared war on vandals! If you look at the tempaltes
almost all of the level 1 warnings sound more like welcome messages!!!!

"Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?"
-Hence the Counter *Vandalisim *Unit.

There are many vandals who have became productive members of the wikipedia
community.
Who is declaring war on vandals??

Flying Canuck
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson-2
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
> I could, but if I did that I would mess up the listings in GMail which I use
> myself.
> I can't make everyone happy at the same time.
> I'll try quoting part of the messages I reply to instead, which hopefully
> makes as much people happy as possible.

I'm just replying to this through gmail just to see for myself; please
disregard.

--
Chris Jenkinson
http://talrias.net/
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson-2
In reply to this post by Chris Jenkinson
I'm just replying to this through gmail just to see for myself; please
disregard.

On 04/02/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
> > Vandals are often trollish.
> > Don't feed the trolls, just clean up after them and only block when you need
> > to.
>
> I agree; yet am confused as how this is a response to what I wrote.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Jenkinson
> [hidden email]
>
> "Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
>   -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


--
Chris Jenkinson
http://talrias.net/
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

The Cunctator
In reply to this post by Chris Jenkinson
On 2/4/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The Cunctator wrote:
> > Should any of us declare war on vandals?
> >
> > Aren't most vandals people who are just being juvenile, and likely if
> > shown how much fun being a productive contributor to Wikipedia is,
> > would rather have their edits last, influencing others?
> >
> > Shouldn't we distinguish between fighting vandalism and fighting
> > vandals? It's not personal -- it's business. Right?
> >
> > Isn't declaring war a gross violation of assuming good faith?
> >
> > Please tell me why "declaring war" on vandals is a good idea.
>
> Who's been declaring war on vandals?
>
[[User:Cool Cat]].
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Chris Jenkinson
The Cunctator wrote:
> [[User:Cool Cat]].

One person? It seems a more productive path would be to discuss it on
his talk page rather than discussing it behind his back on the mailing
list - as far as I know, he's not subscribed.

Chris

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"Mistrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
  -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

The Cunctator
On 2/4/06, Chris Jenkinson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The Cunctator wrote:
> > [[User:Cool Cat]].
>
> One person? It seems a more productive path would be to discuss it on
> his talk page rather than discussing it behind his back on the mailing
> list - as far as I know, he's not subscribed.

He's the person who founded the "Counter Vandalism Unit", so his
attitudes are influential.

He wrote on my talk page: "Are you sure you are worthy of admin tools
(strictly judging from your incivil and rather annoying attitude here
at wikipedia and on the mailing list). I DOnt believe if you had an
RfA now it would have passed."

So it's evident he's aware of the mailing list, if not participating
in it. I've left a message on his talk page.

Judging by the comments he left me, I have trouble seeing how a
one-on-one conversation would be constructive, but I'm certainly
willing to try.
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Michael Snow
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
Chris Jenkinson wrote:

> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
>
>> I could, but if I did that I would mess up the listings in GMail
>> which I use
>> myself.
>> I can't make everyone happy at the same time.
>> I'll try quoting part of the messages I reply to instead, which
>> hopefully
>> makes as much people happy as possible.
>
> Why does it mess up the listing in Gmail? If that's the case, Gmail is
> broken.

Of course it's broken, it's only in beta. Doesn't mean we should ban it,
though. Otherwise, by a similar logic, perhaps the Wikimedia Foundation
should optimize all of its sites for Internet Explorer.

--Michael Snow
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Re: Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Michael Snow wrote:

> Chris Jenkinson wrote:
>
>> MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:
>>
>>> I could, but if I did that I would mess up the listings in GMail
>>> which I use
>>> myself.
>>> I can't make everyone happy at the same time.
>>> I'll try quoting part of the messages I reply to instead, which
>>> hopefully
>>> makes as much people happy as possible.
>>
>>
>> Why does it mess up the listing in Gmail? If that's the case, Gmail is
>> broken.
>
>
> Of course it's broken, it's only in beta. Doesn't mean we should ban it,
> though. Otherwise, by a similar logic, perhaps the Wikimedia Foundation
> should optimize all of its sites for Internet Explorer.
>
I consider Internet Explorer to be in more of a "beta" status than
Firefox is - at least it actually has people looking at what's wrong
with it, if anything.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

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Re: Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Sam Korn
In reply to this post by Michael Snow
On 2/5/06, Michael Snow <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Of course it's broken, it's only in beta. Doesn't mean we should ban it,
> though.

A little birdy told me *we* were still in beta.  Surely that can't be right...

;-)

--
Sam
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Re: Should we be declaring war on vandals?

Mark Gallagher-5
In reply to this post by Chris Jenkinson

G'day Chris,

> The Cunctator wrote:
>
>> [[User:Cool Cat]].
>
> One person? It seems a more productive path would be to discuss it on
> his talk page rather than discussing it behind his back on the mailing
> list - as far as I know, he's not subscribed.

That is an excellent point --- but it's not just Cool_Cat.  In fact
Cool_Cat himself is quite good when it comes to vandals; he's written
the vandalism-sensing bot which I gather is quite useful, raised
awareness of the problem of vandalism, and done other neat stuff that
I'm sure I'd remember if I hadn't just returned from a hard night of
softball.  I haven't noticed any harmful interactions between him
personally and vandals.

The problem is that his "war on vandals!" attitude is shared by the
"Counter-Vandalism Unit".  Now, CVU boasts quite a few great people, who
are calm and efficient and cluey and would really be doing the same job
whether CVU existed or not.  But it *also* includes many newbies who've
arrived, seen an interesting-looking clique, and signed on, jumping into
the vandal-fighting thing without really knowing anything else about
Wikipedia.  These people, as well as being bloody annoying when they get
underfoot (such as demanding admins speedy articles or block users on
their say-so, regardless of policy or, more importantly, Common Sense),
are also the ones most likely to bite newbies.

One memorable time --- I have no diff, alas --- I saw a CVU member
berating an anon user for causing "us in CVU" to worry and waste time
dealing with vandalism.  Funnily enough, the reason I remember it is
because I got a little irritated that the user in question really
believed CVU was the be-all and end-all of vandalism-fighting
activities, and didn't give a second thought to the whole newbie-biting
stuff of complaining at a user that his vandalism was causing stress.
There's a little newbie-muncher in all of us.


--
Mark Gallagher
"What?  I can't hear you, I've got a banana on my head!"
- Danger Mouse


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