Show community consensus for Wikilove

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
64 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Show community consensus for Wikilove

WereSpielChequers-2
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
> > It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
> >
>
>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
>
>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment of
> the
> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
>
>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
>                c) Show community consensus.
>
>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of this.
>  Is
> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
> is the case, I can do a search.
>
>        Thanks!
>
>        -b.
>
>
> --
> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archive_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F

Ta

WerepielChequers
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Given that the English Wikipedia has a problem, its page views is going
down for instance, there is a well documented division between the oldies
and the newbies. There is a natural attrition as well as open conflict
resulting in their being not as many editors as there used to be.

Wikilove, the dashboard are all mechanisms to show appreciation and learn
from newbies. This functionality is developed with the English Wikipedia in
mind.

My question what is the point in stagnating in old functionality when the
established community is to approve new features especially new features
not addressing the needs of the established community and seeking consensus
only once these features have been developed?

With respect, these features are introduced, experience is gained and
consequently these features will be adapted. Does constant community
consensus make sense and if so what is it that you hope to achieve? How is
a no going to help given the need for a more healthy English community ?
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 29 October 2011 14:49, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>wrote:

> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
> > From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
> >        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
> > > It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
> > >
> >
> >        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
> >
> >        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment
> of
> > the
> > tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
> >
> >                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
> >                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
> >                c) Show community consensus.
> >
> >        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of
> this.
> >  Is
> > there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
> > is the case, I can do a search.
> >
> >        Thanks!
> >
> >        -b.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
> >
> > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> >
> >
> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archive_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
>
> Ta
>
> WerepielChequers
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Amir E. Aharoni
Getting the dreaded community consensus for useful features and fixes
is indeed a painful experience and i'm not joking.

One way to counter it is to present the communities with results of
research that has been conducted and shown that these features
actually achieve something positive.

Was such research conducted about WikiLove?


2011/10/29 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:

> Hoi,
> Given that the English Wikipedia has a problem, its page views is going
> down for instance, there is a well documented division between the oldies
> and the newbies. There is a natural attrition as well as open conflict
> resulting in their being not as many editors as there used to be.
>
> Wikilove, the dashboard are all mechanisms to show appreciation and learn
> from newbies. This functionality is developed with the English Wikipedia in
> mind.
>
> My question what is the point in stagnating in old functionality when the
> established community is to approve new features especially new features
> not addressing the needs of the established community and seeking consensus
> only once these features have been developed?
>
> With respect, these features are introduced, experience is gained and
> consequently these features will be adapted. Does constant community
> consensus make sense and if so what is it that you hope to achieve? How is
> a no going to help given the need for a more healthy English community ?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 29 October 2011 14:49, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
>> > From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
>> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
>> >        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
>> > > It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
>> > >
>> >
>> >        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
>> >
>> >        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment
>> of
>> > the
>> > tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
>> >
>> >                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
>> >                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
>> >                c) Show community consensus.
>> >
>> >        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of
>> this.
>> >  Is
>> > there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
>> > is the case, I can do a search.
>> >
>> >        Thanks!
>> >
>> >        -b.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
>> >
>> > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>> >
>> >
>> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
>> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
>> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archive_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
>>
>> Ta
>>
>> WerepielChequers
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Fae-7
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
Hi Gerard,

Your email appears to argue that the WMF should introduce any features
they find expedient and then deal with (or ignore) complaints from the
community afterwards. This seems to miss the opportunity for user
testing, feedback or even asking the users what they want as part of
requirements gathering and analysis. Does your email represent the
position of the WMF or the outreach team?

Personally, I find arguments that we should do away with community
consensus because it is too hard disturbing and run counter to our
agreed mission.

Thanks,
Fae

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Nickanc Wikipedia
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2
IMHO, Wikilove is something so important about wikipedia's ethics and
behaviour that shall be in every wiki. IMHO.

2011/10/29 WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>:

>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
>> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
>>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
>> > It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
>> >
>>
>>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
>>
>>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment of
>> the
>> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
>>
>>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
>>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
>>                c) Show community consensus.
>>
>>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of this.
>>  Is
>> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
>> is the case, I can do a search.
>>
>>        Thanks!
>>
>>        -b.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
>>
>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>
>>
> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archive_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
>
> Ta
>
> WerepielChequers
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Etienne Beaule-2
But if we enable it at a wiki that doesn't want it, there could be a
boycott, and vandals just get the place up to there "code".  It would be
very detrimental to wikipedia.


On 11-10-29 12:27 PM, "Nickanc Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> IMHO, Wikilove is something so important about wikipedia's ethics and
> behaviour that shall be in every wiki. IMHO.
>
> 2011/10/29 WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>:
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
>>> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
>>>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
>>>> It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
>>>>
>>>
>>>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
>>>
>>>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment of
>>> the
>>> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
>>>
>>>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
>>>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
>>>                c) Show community consensus.
>>>
>>>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of this.
>>>  Is
>>> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
>>> is the case, I can do a search.
>>>
>>>        Thanks!
>>>
>>>        -b.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
>>>
>>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>>
>>>
>> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
>> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
>> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archi
>> ve_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
>>
>> Ta
>>
>> WerepielChequers
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l



_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Fae-7
Hoi,
I am happy to make a distinction of what I do officially and what I say
because I am personally of a particular opinion. This is very much my
personal opinion.

There have been LOADS of opportunities where the community is asked, begged
to be involved in what will be the way forward. The most obvious
opportunity has been the Strategy project. At this time the Wikimedia
Foundation is looking for all sorts of volunteers that are asked to help
determine what future functionality will be like. Specifically I want to
mention the need for "language support teams" and volunteers for our mobile
development.

The position of the WMF as I know it is that it wants very much an involved
community. To be effective, it is important for the community to be
involved early in the process. Sadly many people want to be only involved
at the end of the process. This does not help much and particularly not on
issues that are not the bread and butter of working on content by the
existing community.

I made points in my previous mail. They have not been addressed. We agree
on the need for community involvement. The WMF has a strong tradition on
involving its communities. My argument is that the programs that are
discussed are very much monitored for their effect, based on the results
the functionality will be tweaked. My argument is that these programs are
the result of community consultation and therefore community involvement is
the origin of the functionality we are discussing.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 29 October 2011 16:56, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Gerard,
>
> Your email appears to argue that the WMF should introduce any features
> they find expedient and then deal with (or ignore) complaints from the
> community afterwards. This seems to miss the opportunity for user
> testing, feedback or even asking the users what they want as part of
> requirements gathering and analysis. Does your email represent the
> position of the WMF or the outreach team?
>
> Personally, I find arguments that we should do away with community
> consensus because it is too hard disturbing and run counter to our
> agreed mission.
>
> Thanks,
> Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Mateus Nobre
In reply to this post by Etienne Beaule-2

Etienne,

Why any Wikipedia would not want the Wikilove feature?

This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement, there's no reason to disagree improvements.

_____________________
MateusNobre
Wikimedia Brasil - MetalBrasil on Wikimedia projects
(+55) 85 88393509
              30440865


> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:31:24 -0300
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove
>
> But if we enable it at a wiki that doesn't want it, there could be a
> boycott, and vandals just get the place up to there "code".  It would be
> very detrimental to wikipedia.
>
>
> On 11-10-29 12:27 PM, "Nickanc Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > IMHO, Wikilove is something so important about wikipedia's ethics and
> > behaviour that shall be in every wiki. IMHO.
> >
> > 2011/10/29 WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>:
> >>> Message: 1
> >>> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
> >>> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
> >>>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
> >>>> It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
> >>>
> >>>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment of
> >>> the
> >>> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
> >>>
> >>>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
> >>>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
> >>>                c) Show community consensus.
> >>>
> >>>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of this.
> >>>  Is
> >>> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
> >>> is the case, I can do a search.
> >>>
> >>>        Thanks!
> >>>
> >>>        -b.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
> >>>
> >>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
> >> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
> >> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archi
> >> ve_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
> >>
> >> Ta
> >>
> >> WerepielChequers
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
     
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Etienne Beaule-2
It could happen.


On 11-10-29 4:57 PM, "Mateus Nobre" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Etienne,
>
> Why any Wikipedia would not want the Wikilove feature?
>
> This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement, there's no
> reason to disagree improvements.
>
> _____________________
> MateusNobre
> Wikimedia Brasil - MetalBrasil on Wikimedia projects
> (+55) 85 88393509
>               30440865
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:31:24 -0300
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove
>>
>> But if we enable it at a wiki that doesn't want it, there could be a
>> boycott, and vandals just get the place up to there "code".  It would be
>> very detrimental to wikipedia.
>>
>>
>> On 11-10-29 12:27 PM, "Nickanc Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO, Wikilove is something so important about wikipedia's ethics and
>>> behaviour that shall be in every wiki. IMHO.
>>>
>>> 2011/10/29 WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
>>>>> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
>>>>>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
>>>>>> It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment of
>>>>> the
>>>>> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
>>>>>
>>>>>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
>>>>>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
>>>>>                c) Show community consensus.
>>>>>
>>>>>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of this.
>>>>>  Is
>>>>> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
>>>>> is the case, I can do a search.
>>>>>
>>>>>        Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>        -b.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
>>>> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
>>>> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Arc
>>>> hi
>>>> ve_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
>>>>
>>>> Ta
>>>>
>>>> WerepielChequers
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>  
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l



_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Oliver Koslowski
In reply to this post by Mateus Nobre
Am 29.10.2011 21:57, schrieb Mateus Nobre:

>  This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement, there's no reason to disagree improvements.

Huh,I knew I shoulda taken that left turn at/Albuquerque/. How exactly is it a global improvement? Quite frankly I couldn't think of anything less useful than the WikiLove extension. o.O

Best regards,
Oliver


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Bjoern Hoehrmann
In reply to this post by Mateus Nobre
* Mateus Nobre wrote:
>Why any Wikipedia would not want the Wikilove feature?
>
>This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement,
>there's no reason to disagree improvements.

If you create a new account and edit a bit, on some projects odds are
some other editor will place on your Talk page some template saying they
saw you editing and wanted to personally welcome you. Some might find
that nice, others might feel they are being stalked because someone is
monitoring them, ridiculed as there is nothing personal about placing
templates, most probably with a single click, on talk pages, and exposed
as the first thing anyone visiting the talk page would see is that they
are a newbie. Some may think of http://www.despair.com/motivation.html
when they find themself as recepient of this kind of Wikilove. And they
would have a hard time showing their discomfort because society expects
you to appreciate when someone appears to try to be nice to you, which
would add to their discomfort.

Some editors just want to edit articles and regard the "social" and
"meta" dimensions of the project as annoying distractions, while other
editors see those as the main attractions. Some prefer "You are nice.",
others are far more motivated hearing "You did a good job." Some might
be thrilled if they see someone clicked them a kitty, others might find
it far more meaningful if another editor takes the time to manually go
to their talk page and manually write, say, "I signed in this morning
and saw you added a great picture to the article I created yesterday.
That made me smile, thank you." without hearts and beers and single
clicks (similarily, adding the picture might be a far better show of
appreciation than a clicked kitty with thanks for the new article.)

It's hard to smile online.
--
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[hidden email] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Am Badedeich 7 · Telefon: +49(0)160/4415681 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
25899 Dagebüll · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Marco Chiesa
In reply to this post by Mateus Nobre
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Mateus Nobre <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Etienne,
>
> Why any Wikipedia would not want the Wikilove feature?
>
> This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement, there's no reason to disagree improvements.
>

What a lot of people would reply is: "Because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia"
A little story: on the Italian Wikipedia we were calling WikiLove a
call to calm down when discussions are getting too hot, and one day
one Italian newspaper wrote an article about WikiLove (the new
MediaWiki feature) and we were wondering what the hell they were
talking about. Because we couldn't believe that such a feature could
exist. I then realised that it was active on commons, and it looks
like some of the things you could get on facebook three years ago,
which look so old now. I don't like it, and I'm not going to use it
even if it was implemented on my home wiki. But I'm sure some people
would use it, and I prefer they use it rather than vandalizing pages.

Cruccone

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

M. Williamson
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
So... Wikilove is enabled on all Wikis only by consensus... except en.wp,
where it was pushed out with no consensus and as far as I can tell, no
research yet proving it had any results?


2011/10/29 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>

> Hoi,
> Given that the English Wikipedia has a problem, its page views is going
> down for instance, there is a well documented division between the oldies
> and the newbies. There is a natural attrition as well as open conflict
> resulting in their being not as many editors as there used to be.
>
> Wikilove, the dashboard are all mechanisms to show appreciation and learn
> from newbies. This functionality is developed with the English Wikipedia in
> mind.
>
> My question what is the point in stagnating in old functionality when the
> established community is to approve new features especially new features
> not addressing the needs of the established community and seeking consensus
> only once these features have been developed?
>
> With respect, these features are introduced, experience is gained and
> consequently these features will be adapted. Does constant community
> consensus make sense and if so what is it that you hope to achieve? How is
> a no going to help given the need for a more healthy English community ?
> Thanks,
>      GerardM
>
> On 29 October 2011 14:49, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > > Message: 1
> > > Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700
> > > From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,
> > >        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:
> > > > It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.
> > > >
> > >
> > >        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.
> > >
> > >        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for deployment
> > of
> > > the
> > > tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:
> > >
> > >                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);
> > >                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and
> > >                c) Show community consensus.
> > >
> > >        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of
> > this.
> > >  Is
> > > there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this
> > > is the case, I can do a search.
> > >
> > >        Thanks!
> > >
> > >        -b.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation
> > >
> > > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
> > >
> > >
> > Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is
> > consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that
> > established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archive_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F
> >
> > Ta
> >
> > WerepielChequers
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Ev. Jorgen.
My question is, are we going to have a bot to give out barnstars
anytime soon? That seems like the logical conclusion of all this...

So far my only experience with extension:wikilove is having a new user
prefer it to just editing my talk page, and so over the course of a
mundane conversation about sourcing I earned myself two civility
barnstars and three trophies. Hooray!

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Brandon Harris-4

On 10/29/11 8:36 PM, Jorgenev wrote:
>
> So far my only experience with extension:wikilove is having a new user
> prefer it to just editing my talk page, and so over the course of a
> mundane conversation about sourcing I earned myself two civility
> barnstars and three trophies. Hooray!

        One take away from this experience of yours could be that the process
of utilizing talk pages is extremely arcane and horrible from a user
experience perspective, while using WikiLove to communicate - even
though it is the "wrong" channel - is far easier and preferable to new
users.


--
Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Keegan Peterzell
On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> On 10/29/11 8:36 PM, Jorgenev wrote:
> >
> > So far my only experience with extension:wikilove is having a new user
> > prefer it to just editing my talk page, and so over the course of a
> > mundane conversation about sourcing I earned myself two civility
> > barnstars and three trophies. Hooray!
>
>         One take away from this experience of yours could be that the
> process
> of utilizing talk pages is extremely arcane and horrible from a user
> experience perspective, while using WikiLove to communicate - even
> though it is the "wrong" channel - is far easier and preferable to new
> users.
>
>
>
Sure.  Is easier more educational?  There's the rub.

I'm all for making editing a more inviting experience, but progress has a
way of feigning ease and making things more simple for building an
encyclopedia removes the intellectual from the exercise.  Wikipedia is one
of the last places on the internet where it's not acceptable to write in all
caps, ignore rules of grammar, write in text message speak, or in general
not know how to write a paragraph.  We should whole-heartily embrace mundane
conversations about sourcing over shiny stickers, because what we learned
and retained from school wasn't from the gold star reward system..  I don't
approve or disapprove of the Wikilove extension- I simply don't use it in my
setup because it's my preference.  I do, however, worry to an extent about
quality over quantity.  I'd rather have someone write one nice talk page
note a year than drop barnstars for niceties.  But that's just me.

--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Craig Franklin-2
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2
Personally, I find the whole "WikiLove" extension to be a bit naff and
schmaltzy.  I'm generally not thrilled when I get a WikiLove kitten or
anything, just like I'm not touched that my local member of Parliament has
thought to send me a form letter about how hard they're working for me.
 It's harmless enough though, I just choose to ignore it.

With that said though, if a particular project community decides they don't
want it, why should it be forced upon them?  I think this principle should
apply to *all* extensions, not just "harmless" or "global improvement" ones.

Cheers,
Craig


> Message: 1


> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:57:25 +0300


> From: Mateus Nobre <[hidden email]>


> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove


> To: <[hidden email]>


> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>


>  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


>   Etienne,


>
Why any Wikipedia would not want the Wikilove feature?



This is inconsistent for me. Wikilove's a global improvement, there's no
reason to disagree improvements.



_____________________


MateusNobre


Wikimedia Brasil - MetalBrasil on Wikimedia projects


(+55) 85 88393509


             30440865




> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:31:24 -0300


> From: [hidden email]


> To: [hidden email]


> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Show community consensus for Wikilove


>


> But if we enable it at a wiki that doesn't want it, there could be a


> boycott, and vandals just get the place up to there "code".  It would be


> very detrimental to wikipedia.


>


>


> On 11-10-29 12:27 PM, "Nickanc Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:


>


> > IMHO, Wikilove is something so important about wikipedia's ethics and


> > behaviour that shall be in every wiki. IMHO.


> >


> > 2011/10/29 WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>:


> >>> Message: 1


> >>> Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:31:07 -0700


> >>> From: Brandon Harris <[hidden email]>


> >>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] On certain shallow, American-centered,


> >>>        foolish software initiatives backed by WMF


> >>> To: [hidden email]


> >>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>


> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


> >>>


> >>>


> >>>


> >>> On 10/28/11 3:27 PM, Etienne Beaule wrote:


> >>>> It's disabled on certain wikis because of technical problems.


> >>>>


> >>>


> >>>        Oh? I wasn't aware that it had been disabled anywhere as yet.


> >>>


> >>>        WikiLove was not rolled out "en mass"; the policy for
deployment of


> >>> the


> >>> tool is that it is by request only, and the requesting wiki must:


> >>>


> >>>                a) Make sure the tool is localized (via TranslateWiki);


> >>>                b) Make sure they have a local configuration; and


> >>>                c) Show community consensus.


> >>>


> >>>        So if it was enabled and then *disabled*, I have not heard of
this.


> >>>  Is


> >>> there a bug report I can look to?  Or if you know of a wiki where this


> >>> is the case, I can do a search.


> >>>


> >>>        Thanks!


> >>>


> >>>        -b.


> >>>


> >>>


> >>> --


> >>> Brandon Harris, Senior Designer, Wikimedia Foundation


> >>>


> >>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate


> >>>


> >>>


> >> Good to hear that wikilove is only going in on wikis where there is


> >> consensus for it. Can anyone give me a link to the discussion that


> >> established consensus on EN wikipedia? The nearest I could find was


> >>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28miscellaneous%29/Archi


> >> ve_33#Thoughts_on_WikiLove.3F


> >>


> >> Ta


> >>


> >> WerepielChequers


> >> _______________________________________________


> >> foundation-l mailing list


> >> [hidden email]


> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


> >>


> >


> > _______________________________________________


> > foundation-l mailing list


> > [hidden email]


> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


>


>


>


> _______________________________________________


> foundation-l mailing list


> [hidden email]


> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Fae-7
There is a general view amongst Wikipedia admins that excessive
templating on user pages is poor practice. I frequently use an initial
(customized) welcome template for new users and do use standard user
warning templates for vandalism, though not for "regulars". However
these templates are not available to brand new users as tools such as
Twinkle will only be discovered after an editor has had a chance to
learn the basics.

Wikilove has been implemented differently as a user sees the tab as
another early toy to play with and we now see a lot of new users
trying it out on their own talk pages as their first edit. At the
moment Wikilove works on an opt-out basis rather than an opt-in basis.

PROPOSAL

Let's change the Wikilove tab to only be visible to users after their
first 10 edits. Before this point, it is unlikely that new users will
be able to use templates in a meaningful way and this would also help
to keep the interface as simple as possible for the first few edits
made and targeted more on article content rather than user page fluff.

Cheers,
Fae

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

Oliver Keyes-3
Surely making it only available to those users who understand markup
completely undermines one of the great unintended consequences - that it's
really useful for posting talkpage messages? New users can use those
templates in a *perfectly* meaningful way - as a way of communicating
instead of relying some pseudo-HTML markup language they're too new to
understand. They could communicate...ohh, I don't know, just off the top of
my head....maybe "can someone please explain to me how markup works?"

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:18 AM, Fae <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is a general view amongst Wikipedia admins that excessive
> templating on user pages is poor practice. I frequently use an initial
> (customized) welcome template for new users and do use standard user
> warning templates for vandalism, though not for "regulars". However
> these templates are not available to brand new users as tools such as
> Twinkle will only be discovered after an editor has had a chance to
> learn the basics.
>
> Wikilove has been implemented differently as a user sees the tab as
> another early toy to play with and we now see a lot of new users
> trying it out on their own talk pages as their first edit. At the
> moment Wikilove works on an opt-out basis rather than an opt-in basis.
>
> PROPOSAL
>
> Let's change the Wikilove tab to only be visible to users after their
> first 10 edits. Before this point, it is unlikely that new users will
> be able to use templates in a meaningful way and this would also help
> to keep the interface as simple as possible for the first few edits
> made and targeted more on article content rather than user page fluff.
>
> Cheers,
> Fae
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Show community consensus for Wikilove

geni
On 30 October 2011 08:06, Oliver Keyes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Surely making it only available to those users who understand markup
> completely undermines one of the great unintended consequences - that it's
> really useful for posting talkpage messages? New users can use those
> templates in a *perfectly* meaningful way - as a way of communicating
> instead of relying some pseudo-HTML markup language they're too new to
> understand. They could communicate...ohh, I don't know, just off the top of
> my head....maybe "can someone please explain to me how markup works?"


Zee logical attack line would be to make one of the wikilove options
(probably the first one) a simple "a message for you" rather than "a
kitten for you" or "an ironclad battleship for you" or whatever the
options are.


--
geni

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
[hidden email]
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
1234