Some Observations

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Some Observations

Chad
List,

I wanted to say that I have been very disappointed. I realize this
post will probably elicit a lot of "Duhs" or "You expected
differently" type of responses, but I feel I must get my thoughts out
there. Recently, I took almost all of the Wikipedia: namespace off of
my watchlist. No more Administrator's noticeboard, no more requests
for arbitration, no more deletion discussions or policy battles, none
of that. I've been working on content and trying to just enjoy what
Wikipedia is about. I joined this list because I often heard
discussion referenced that I had not seen, and I decided to partake in
this, as I still care deeply for the Wikipedia community as a whole,
even though I am not editing project space. This list is supposed to
be the place of meta discussion for Enwiki, to settle disputes and to
discuss policy. Talk about the community and ways to improve it.
However, after posting a little (and reading a whole lot more), I
think it is painfully obvious:

This list does not serve the function it is intended to!

These threads are not about improving Wikipedia or how to handle
vandals. No (good) policy discussion is going on--sans BADSITES, which
everyone is really really sick of--and progress is not being made on
anything. Instead, this list is nothing more than a personal attack
forum and a avenue for trolls. Discussions are uncivil and countless
threads are debated and lead nowhere. The entire thing basically
reminds me of a gymnasium of elementary school kids, all trying to
yell and have it "their way" because only they know best. I've seen
quite a fair share of people on this list who are of the opinion that
they're right simply because of who they are. I'm here to tell you
that no one cares. The fact that you've been contributing since 1982
means nothing. To be perfectly honest, I have more faith in an anon
who makes a single typo fix than over half the people on this list. I
know my ranting will fall on deaf ears, and the bickering will
continue on and off-wiki just as it has and will continue to do so.

I will no longer be posting to this list. I will remain subscribed and
will read, hopefully one day seeing a community that appreciates the
good faith efforts of others, even if they disagree. Hopefully one day
this community will be able to accept criticism without immediately
dismissing it as trolling.  Hopefully one day this community will be
civil and courteous when discussing, and won't talk with such an air
of elitism. Hopefully one day this community will go back to what it
was designed to do: producing a free content encyclopedia, instead of
merely acting to perpetuate its existence. I invite you all today to
join me in editing the encyclopedia. Pick an article, make it
something you're interested in. Improve the article. If it doesn't
exist, make it! Find sources! Clean up disambigs and excessive
external links. Format, copyedit, write. Do what we're all supposedly
here to do.

I'm going to edit now, will you join me?

-Chad H.

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Re: Some Observations

Phoenix wiki
I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
regular basis anyway. Maybe not...

Phoenix-wiki
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Re: Some Observations

Angela Anuszewski-2
I consider myself a "casual wikignome" - when I read something on the
mainspace, if I see it needs changing, I do it. Once in a great while
I will write about something that interests me, but I don't make a
hobby out of writing content on a regular basis.

I like reading the "behind the scenes" work that goes into
administering the project even if I am not one of the peopel
participating in it. That's why I'm here on this list.

Angela

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Re: Some Observations

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Phoenix wiki
On 28/11/2007, Phoenix wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...


It's a fatal trap for admins, and even more so once you accumulate a
few more jobs (on the local wiki or cross-wiki/Foundation level), to
never quite get around to doing the thing that was so much fun and
lured you here in the first place, i.e. writing an encyclopedia ...

Bored? Sick to death of policy wrangling? Write something!

http://davidgerard.co.uk/notes/2007/11/01/bored-policy-weary-write-something/

Also: If editing a wiki starts to lose its appeal but you want to be
productive, there are many "wanted photos" lists on en:wp and on
Commons for you to go out and fill out a bit.


- d.

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Re: Some Observations

Katie Chan
In reply to this post by Phoenix wiki
On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 20:10 +0000, Phoenix wiki wrote:
> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...

You mean where does the people on this list get the time to read through
all of the 200 emails generated in less than 2 days, read through AN/I,
RFAr, search through WR, WikiTruth and whatnot, and then to write a few
of those many replies?

Talking of mainspace edits, I actually somehow ended up creating 4 new
articles today (admittedly one of them was from AFC). 20% of my new
articles count in just 1 day. Woohoo! :D

Procrastination can be such motivation...

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
  - Heinrich Heine

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Re: Some Observations

John Reaves
In reply to this post by Phoenix wiki
On Nov 28, 2007 3:10 PM, Phoenix wiki <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...
>
> Phoenix-wiki
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

That'd be "not".

--John Reaves
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Re: Some Observations

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:
> On 28/11/2007, Phoenix wiki wrote:
>  
>> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
>> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...
>>    
> It's a fatal trap for admins, and even more so once you accumulate a
> few more jobs (on the local wiki or cross-wiki/Foundation level), to
> never quite get around to doing the thing that was so much fun and
> lured you here in the first place, i.e. writing an encyclopedia ...
In the real world I have encountered engineers who spent many years
getting the required certification so that they can build things, but
end up in company's management shuffling paper. :-)

Ec


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Re: Some Observations

David Gerard-2
On 28/11/2007, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
> > On 28/11/2007, Phoenix wiki wrote:

> >> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
> >> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...

> > It's a fatal trap for admins, and even more so once you accumulate a
> > few more jobs (on the local wiki or cross-wiki/Foundation level), to
> > never quite get around to doing the thing that was so much fun and
> > lured you here in the first place, i.e. writing an encyclopedia ...

> In the real world I have encountered engineers who spent many years
> getting the required certification so that they can build things, but
> end up in company's management shuffling paper. :-)


Of course, that could never happen to us. No no no.

(At my work we vastly enjoy making fun of techies who've made the
mistake of going for one promotion too many and now spend their
working lives ENTIRELY in Outlook and Excel, in that order. If they
write any code we help them keep it secret from *their* boss.)

Brian McNeil (Wikinews) posted to foundation-l a suggestion of a
Wikimedia toolbar for Firefox that would count your page views and
suggest a cash donation to WMF when you'd reached 100 Wikimedia pages
or whatever. I suggest an extra feature: you can pay in cash *or*
effort - copyedit 20 pages, start 1 good new stub (three paragraphs
and two references) or deal with one sad crippled orphan from
{{cleanup}}. There is in fact a Wikipedia toolbar for Firefox:

http://wikipedia.mozdev.org/

- anyone want to add a donation-nag function?


- d.

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Re: Some Observations

geni
On 28/11/2007, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 28/11/2007, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > David Gerard wrote:
> > > On 28/11/2007, Phoenix wiki wrote:
>
> > >> I was under the impresion that most of us edited edited the mainspace on a
> > >> regular basis anyway. Maybe not...
>
> > > It's a fatal trap for admins, and even more so once you accumulate a
> > > few more jobs (on the local wiki or cross-wiki/Foundation level), to
> > > never quite get around to doing the thing that was so much fun and
> > > lured you here in the first place, i.e. writing an encyclopedia ...
>
> > In the real world I have encountered engineers who spent many years
> > getting the required certification so that they can build things, but
> > end up in company's management shuffling paper. :-)
>
>
> Of course, that could never happen to us. No no no.
>
> (At my work we vastly enjoy making fun of techies who've made the
> mistake of going for one promotion too many and now spend their
> working lives ENTIRELY in Outlook and Excel, in that order. If they
> write any code we help them keep it secret from *their* boss.)
>
> Brian McNeil (Wikinews) posted to foundation-l a suggestion of a
> Wikimedia toolbar for Firefox that would count your page views and
> suggest a cash donation to WMF when you'd reached 100 Wikimedia pages
> or whatever. I suggest an extra feature: you can pay in cash *or*
> effort - copyedit 20 pages, start 1 good new stub (three paragraphs
> and two references) or deal with one sad crippled orphan from
> {{cleanup}}. There is in fact a Wikipedia toolbar for Firefox:
>
> http://wikipedia.mozdev.org/
>
> - anyone want to add a donation-nag function?
>

No. I can rack up 100 page views in less than 5 min (normaly when
cleaning out the fromowner backlog after being away for a week).


--
geni

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Re: Some Observations

Anthony-73
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Nov 28, 2007 5:50 PM, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Brian McNeil (Wikinews) posted to foundation-l a suggestion of a
> Wikimedia toolbar for Firefox that would count your page views and
> suggest a cash donation to WMF when you'd reached 100 Wikimedia pages
> or whatever. I suggest an extra feature: you can pay in cash *or*
> effort

Let's see...  15,000 page requests/second = 473 billion requests per
year for Wikipedia?  At $4.7 million dollars to handle those requests
that means I owe $0.00001 per page request.  At a below minimum wage
rate of $5/hour, I guess I owe 0.72 seconds of effort for every 100
Wikimedia pages I view.

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Re: Some Observations

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
> start 1 good new stub (three paragraphs
> and two references)

3 paragraphs counts as a stub?

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Re: Some Observations

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Anthony-73
> Let's see...  15,000 page requests/second = 473 billion requests per
> year for Wikipedia?  At $4.7 million dollars to handle those requests
> that means I owe $0.00001 per page request.  At a below minimum wage
> rate of $5/hour, I guess I owe 0.72 seconds of effort for every 100
> Wikimedia pages I view.

It's not a matter of "owing", it's a donation.

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Re: Some Observations

Anthony-73
On Nov 28, 2007 7:45 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Let's see...  15,000 page requests/second = 473 billion requests per
> > year for Wikipedia?  At $4.7 million dollars to handle those requests
> > that means I owe $0.00001 per page request.  At a below minimum wage
> > rate of $5/hour, I guess I owe 0.72 seconds of effort for every 100
> > Wikimedia pages I view.
>
> It's not a matter of "owing", it's a donation.
>
In which case, it has nothing whatsoever to do with how many pages you view.

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Re: Some Observations

James Farrar
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On 28/11/2007, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is in fact a Wikipedia toolbar for Firefox:
>
> http://wikipedia.mozdev.org/

Which appears to be incompatible with Firefox versions later than 1.5.*...

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Re: Some Observations

geni
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 29/11/2007, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > start 1 good new stub (three paragraphs
> > and two references)
>
> 3 paragraphs counts as a stub?
>

Yeah stub inflation has been going on for years. That was why substub
appeared and the topic based stubs really only speeded things up.
Problem is people are not sure if they are meant to remove them so the
article gets longer and longer with the notice still there them people
compare to that article when deciding if their new article needs a
stub notice.

--
geni

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Re: Some Observations

Stephen Bain
On Nov 29, 2007 12:49 PM, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yeah stub inflation has been going on for years. That was why substub
> appeared and the topic based stubs really only speeded things up.
> Problem is people are not sure if they are meant to remove them so the
> article gets longer and longer with the notice still there them people
> compare to that article when deciding if their new article needs a
> stub notice.

Stubflation?

--
Stephen Bain
[hidden email]

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Re: Some Observations

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> Let's see...  15,000 page requests/second = 473 billion requests per
>> year for Wikipedia?  At $4.7 million dollars to handle those requests
>> that means I owe $0.00001 per page request.  At a below minimum wage
>> rate of $5/hour, I guess I owe 0.72 seconds of effort for every 100
>> Wikimedia pages I view.
>>    
> It's not a matter of "owing", it's a donation.
We don't want to suggest 1¢ donations if they are going to use PayPal.  
We can wait for the pennies to arrive by snail mail. ;-)

Ec

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Re: Some Observations

Nicolas Montes
plus we lose money when we only get a penny

On Nov 28, 2007 11:59 PM, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thomas Dalton wrote:
> >> Let's see...  15,000 page requests/second = 473 billion requests per
> >> year for Wikipedia?  At $4.7 million dollars to handle those requests
> >> that means I owe $0.00001 per page request.  At a below minimum wage
> >> rate of $5/hour, I guess I owe 0.72 seconds of effort for every 100
> >> Wikimedia pages I view.
> >>
> > It's not a matter of "owing", it's a donation.
> We don't want to suggest 1¢ donations if they are going to use PayPal.
> We can wait for the pennies to arrive by snail mail. ;-)
>
> Ec
>
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Re: Some Observations

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by James Farrar
On 29/11/2007, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 28/11/2007, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > There is in fact a Wikipedia toolbar for Firefox:
> > http://wikipedia.mozdev.org/

> Which appears to be incompatible with Firefox versions later than 1.5.*...


Yes, it obviously needs some loving attention.


- d.

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Re: Some Observations

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Nicolas Montes
On 29/11/2007, Nicolas Montes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> plus we lose money when we only get a penny

I don't think we actually lose money, we just don't get any. As far as
I know, paypal fees are capped at the size of the transaction.

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