Stats on deletion

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Stats on deletion

Brianna Laugher
Who's in the top 10? :)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_deletions

Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their
ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c)
have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.

Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such
single-minded obsessiveness. :)

Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing many
people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is,
though. Walk a fine line........

cheers
Brianna
user:pfctdayelise
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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2

--- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> Who's in the top 10? :)
>
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_deletions
>
> Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their
> ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c)
> have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.

Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into
every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should
install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the
stuff he does is legal.
 
> Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such
> single-minded obsessiveness. :)

Acknowledge.

> Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing many
> people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is,
> though. Walk a fine line........

see above.


       

       
               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
forgot to say

http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikide-l/2006-July/017614.html

similar case.

Paddy

--- Patrick-Emil Zörner <[hidden email]> schrieb:

>
> --- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:
>
> > Who's in the top 10? :)
> >
> >
>
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_deletions

> >
> > Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase
> their
> > ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c)
> > have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
>
> Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into
> every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should
> install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the
> stuff he does is legal.
>  
> > Then again, perhaps it's not a good idea to encourage such
> > single-minded obsessiveness. :)
>
> Acknowledge.
>
> > Disclaimer: As Fred wisely noted, quality != quantity. Pissing
> many
> > people off is still not a good idea. Reducing large backlogs is,
> > though. Walk a fine line........
>
> see above.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo!
> Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
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> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>



               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Brianna Laugher
In reply to this post by Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> --- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:
>
> > Who's in the top 10? :)
> >
> >
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_deletions
> >
> > Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their
> > ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c)
> > have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
>
> Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into
> every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should
> install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the
> stuff he does is legal.

What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private life???

Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of
this data could be obtained.

Brianna
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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2

--- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private
> life???

Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find exactly
this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty
disturbing.

> Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of
> this data could be obtained.

I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent is
what disturbs me.

BTW see last post.

greetings

Paddy



       

       
               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Brianna Laugher
On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> --- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:
>
> > What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private
> > life???
>
> Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find exactly
> this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty
> disturbing.

I don't really get why they would be disturbed to learn that you
delete images as part of your administrator duties. If they're going
to be disturbed that you are an administrator period, or you have an
account on a wiki, well those pieces of information are already
available aside from this one page.

Wiki actions are public; that is a very basic thing that if you can't
accept, you should probably never have hit "edit" in the first place.
let alone joined a publicly archived mailing list from an email
account that has your real name on it.

> > Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all of
> > this data could be obtained.
>
> I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent is
> what disturbs me.

Is not transparency in admin actions a good thing?

> BTW see last post.

I saw it, but considering I can't read German, it didn't do much for me.

Brianna
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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2

--- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> On 10/08/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > --- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> >
> > > What the hell?? Admin actions on-wiki are part of their private
> > > life???
> >
> > Your girlfriend/wife, boyfriend/husband or employer might find
> exactly
> > this data without going through Special:Log. Easily done an mighty
> > disturbing.
>
> I don't really get why they would be disturbed to learn that you
> delete images as part of your administrator duties. If they're going
> to be disturbed that you are an administrator period, or you have an
> account on a wiki, well those pieces of information are already
> available aside from this one page.
>
> Wiki actions are public; that is a very basic thing that if you
> can't
> accept, you should probably never have hit "edit" in the first
> place.
> let alone joined a publicly archived mailing list from an email
> account that has your real name on it.

Exactly how much someone wants to show of his private life publicly is
everybodys personal problem. And what you are saying is: "if you
already wear bathing trunks you might as well go naked". No I prefer
not to. And I never agreed that statistics of my activities are
published. And what I agree on is my problem.

> > > Paddy, you might be disturbed to learn of the existence of
> > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Log ... from which all
> of
> > > this data could be obtained.
> >
> > I know that this exists but sorting data and making it transperent
> is
> > what disturbs me.
>
> Is not transparency in admin actions a good thing?

Yes, but only to a point where it is usefull. Knownig that I deleted x
images does not help you understand what I have deleted. I approve
that you can see that I deleted an image but not how many. period!

> > BTW see last post.
>
> I saw it, but considering I can't read German, it didn't do much for
> me.

See in Wikipedia there is one relevant english article and the other
two are only in german but those laws apply:

en: [[Informational self-determination]] de:
[[Bundesdatenschutzgesetz]] de: [[Teledienstedatenschutzgesetz]]
should be the relevant german laws.

greetings

Paddy




               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:

> --- Brianna Laugher <[hidden email]> schrieb:
>
>> Who's in the top 10? :)
>>
>>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Kotepho/admin#Ordered_list_of_total_deletions
>> Maybe we should award monthly prizes to those who (a) increase their
>> ranking by the most places, (b) perform the most deletions and (c)
>> have the largest increase on their previous month's performance.
>
> Maybe we should delete this page because it is a vast intrusion into
> every admins private life. Is WM "Big Brother"? Maybe you should
> install a camera and monitor my doings? I do not even know if the
> stuff he does is legal.
>  
The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted by
Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in Florida.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP


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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2

--- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
> The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted
> by
> Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in
> Florida.

Apart from the fact that if German laws are stupid or not you are
totally beside the point. BTW your laws in your country are stupid too
(just to prove the point that arguments like that are useless).

I noticed that if people point out legal infringements people argue
1) The uploader is liable
2) The servers are in Florida
They choose what suits them best.

Fact is that if you do not care about showing your ass in public there
are still people that do. I see no argument for not respecting other
peoples behaviour in the internet/in public. Give an argument why
these statistical evaluations are so important for the project and why
we can not do without. Otherwise I would like to see the page deleted.

greetings

Paddy


               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:

> --- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" <[hidden email]> schrieb:
>> The stupid German laws might apply to the Toolserver which is hosted
>> by
>> Wikimedia DE, but they do NOT apply to Commons, which is hosted in
>> Florida.
>
> Apart from the fact that if German laws are stupid or not you are
> totally beside the point. BTW your laws in your country are stupid too
> (just to prove the point that arguments like that are useless).
>
> I noticed that if people point out legal infringements people argue
> 1) The uploader is liable
> 2) The servers are in Florida
> They choose what suits them best.
>
> Fact is that if you do not care about showing your ass in public there
> are still people that do. I see no argument for not respecting other
> peoples behaviour in the internet/in public. Give an argument why
> these statistical evaluations are so important for the project and why
> we can not do without. Otherwise I would like to see the page deleted.
>
In accordance with Sharia law (in effect in Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia
etc.) I will start deleting all images which portray people.

--
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Re: Stats on deletion

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public.  Part
of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is
obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.

I find it most bizarre that you suddenly have an issue with this, and
suggest - since it is unlikely to change - that you either accept it
or leave the project, bluntly.

-Matt
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Re: Stats on deletion

Daniel Kinzler
(This mail is in response to a thread on Commons-l; I'm cross posting it
 to the toolserver list, because it seems relevant there. Ultimately,
this should probably be discussed with the WMF and its local associates)

Please note that publishing "intelligence" obtained from analyzing
person-related data may be considered a violation of that person's
privacy, even if the analyzed data is publicly available - at least
under German law and, afaik, EU guidelines. Data mining can expose
things about a person that are not easily found out by looking straight
at the raw data - this is often problematic, especially since the
results can be quite misleading, as per the nature of the methods used.

If this is stupid or not is besides the point. We have been asked
explicitly by the German Wikimedia e.V. not do make any analysis of user
data available on the toolserver, so we won't (although i find it a bit
hard to draw a line). If it would be legal for the US based foundation
to do it, is a different question. A different question still is if it
would be wise and desirable. To quote Wau Holland and the "hacker
ethics" of the Chaos Computer Club: "utilize public data, protect
private data". Information wants to be free - but so do people. In the
end, the latter are more important.

I personally feel that any analysis that exposes information that is not
 *relevant* to activity on the project should be strictly opt-in. An
example would be a breakup of user activity be time of days or day of
the week. I'm not sure about things like the number of untagged images a
user has uploaded, for example - that does seem relevant to me. If it's
legal or wise to expose such an analysis is an open question to me
(actually, I'd like to have some input on this, since my tools can give
that statistic).

On the other hand, I believe that admins should expect to be subject to
"public oversight". This is in my opinion an important part of an
informal "watch the powerful" mechanism. We already have the ability to
see a list of "admin action" an admin has performed. I'm a bit unsure
about consolidating that log data into a statistics of deletions per
week or whatever - I think we should ask ourselves how useful that would
really be. In any case it should be made more obvious to people what
"data trails" they leave when working on Wikimedia projects, as a
"normal" user and as an admin.

General statistics about admin activity - i.e. sum of all admins, not
per person, would be quite interesting, though, and unproblematic.

Regards,
Daniel

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Re: Stats on deletion

Tomasz W. Kozłowski
In reply to this post by Matthew Brown-5
2006/8/10, Matt Brown <[hidden email]>:

It's my first mail here, on commons-l, so hello all :)

> Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public.  Part
> of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is
> obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.

> -Matt

Just a small thing:

http://tinyurl.com/hsyjs
http://tinyurl.com/hdf5b

and a link with all statistics of admin activity on pl:
http://tinyurl.com/l5fd7

I see no reason for deleting this page.

--
odder
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Re: Stats on deletion

Brianna Laugher
Also note:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_administrators_by_edit_count
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:NoSeptember/crat_stats (bureaucrat
statistics rather similar to what we were doing on commons - breaking
up type of priveleged action)
even look at this!
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikispecial/EN/TablesWikipediaCOMMONS.htm
I think it's quite out of date... but it exists.

As it does for all projects, including de.wp:
http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaDE.htm

As I said on the deletion request... all the information - totals - is
available on Interiot's edit tool
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=Pfctdayelise&dbname=commonswiki_p
. The totals are not opt-in.

And the data is even there for de.wp!
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/count_edits?user=Duesentrieb&dbname=dewiki_p

So I think this is really nothing new.

Brianna



On 10/08/06, odder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2006/8/10, Matt Brown <[hidden email]>:
>
> It's my first mail here, on commons-l, so hello all :)
>
> > Part of being a Wikipedia user is that your actions are public.  Part
> > of being a Wikipedia administrator - a voluntary position nobody is
> > obliged to accept or keep - is public oversight.
>
> > -Matt
>
> Just a small thing:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/hsyjs
> http://tinyurl.com/hdf5b
>
> and a link with all statistics of admin activity on pl:
> http://tinyurl.com/l5fd7
>
> I see no reason for deleting this page.
>
> --
> odder
> _______________________________________________
> Commons-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/commons-l
>
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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)

--- "Alphax (Wikipedia email)" <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> In accordance with Sharia law (in effect in Iran, Syria, Saudia
> Arabia
> etc.) I will start deleting all images which portray people.

I do not even understand what the hell you are talking about. But I
have the strange feeling that you did not understand a word I said.
Otherwise you could tell apart cheese and chalk and would not be
writing such utter nosence.

greetings

Paddy


       

       
               
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Re: [Toolserver-l] Stats on deletion

Daniel Kinzler
In reply to this post by Daniel Kinzler
> interiot wrote:
> Okay, do individuals' deletion totals need to be made opt-in then?

Not sure - I would have thought that is uncritical, but Paddy's comments
on Commons-l imply the opposite.

> If I have a question about whether specific feature is okay, who is the best person to ask?

I think it would be a very good idea to ask the Foundation to develop a
privacy guideline for MediaWiki and tool developers.

> Does a user's total number of edits count as "intelligence that is not relevant to Wikipedia activity"?

Since several wikis have policies requiring a minimum number of edits to
the main namespace, etc, it *is* relevant. OTOH, I'm a bit undecided if
it's really OK to expose this information without asking.

Ideally, new users would be presented with a text explaining what data
they expose when they contribute, and how this may be analyzed. This may
even be made a click-through part of the account creation process.

Also ideally, users would be able to state which types of analysis they
want to allow. Perhaps a simple scheme of "no statistics", "simple
statistics" and "detailed statistics" would be enough, with a default of
"simple". "Simple" statistics would basically be total counts (number of
edits, maybe per namespace, number of deletions, etc), "detailed" would
be "anything goes". A per-project policy could then require admins to at
least allow simple statistics, or something like that.

I'm not sure if this would be feasible and/or legally sound. I'm just
brainstorming here.

-- Daniel

PS: sorry for cross-posting again. I guess this discussion should be
moved to the foundation list or something.

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Re: Stats on deletion

Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Brown-5

--- Matt Brown <[hidden email]> schrieb:

> I find it most bizarre that you suddenly have an issue with this,
> and
> suggest - since it is unlikely to change - that you either accept it
> or leave the project, bluntly.

Thanks for reminding me of my right to leave.

Paddy

PS I wonder if more comments like the german law is stupid, pack your
bags and leave, bizzare,... follow. There has only been one person
that is answering to the topic and that is daniel.



       

       
               
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Re: Stats on deletion

Matthew Brown-5
On 8/10/06, Patrick-Emil Zörner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> PS I wonder if more comments like the german law is stupid, pack your
> bags and leave, bizzare,... follow. There has only been one person
> that is answering to the topic and that is daniel.

My comments were not with regard to German law whatsoever, but purely
in response to your belief that actions - admin actions especially -
should not be subject to oversight or statistics.

I could be persuaded that the actions of non-admin users might have
this expectation of privacy.

I explicitly do NOT agree that oversight of the administrative actions
of administrators should be restricted by privacy concerns.  I believe
that ordinary users of Wikipedia are already, rightly, cautious of
over-reach in the use of admin powers, and that full openness is a
crucial part of dealing with community concerns on that matter.

However, I do also agree that bare statistics, without explanation,
are often less useful than they may seem, and the availability of a
statistic may influence users socially in a way that might not be for
the best.  As an example, the use of ever-more-nitpicking standards
for granting of admin rights, I think, can be laid partly at the feet
of greater availability of highly detailed statistics on a user's
history obtained via toolserver scripts.

Thus, I agree, caution is a good thing; I do not, however, agree that
such caution is mandated by a right to privacy over one's admin
actions, but rather by considering the value to the project.

-Matt
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Re: [Toolserver-l] Stats on deletion

Matthew Brown-5
In reply to this post by Daniel Kinzler
On 8/10/06, Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ideally, new users would be presented with a text explaining what data
> they expose when they contribute, and how this may be analyzed. This may
> even be made a click-through part of the account creation process.

I suspect in certain legal jurisdictions we may be actually required
to do this.  (anyone?)

The problem with this is that it puts up another barrier to
registration as a user.

> Also ideally, users would be able to state which types of analysis they
> want to allow. Perhaps a simple scheme of "no statistics", "simple
> statistics" and "detailed statistics" would be enough, with a default of
> "simple". "Simple" statistics would basically be total counts (number of
> edits, maybe per namespace, number of deletions, etc), "detailed" would
> be "anything goes". A per-project policy could then require admins to at
> least allow simple statistics, or something like that.

My concern with this is that abusive users will abuse privacy options
to reduce oversight of what they're doing, and that adopting such a
policy would eventually lead to restricting access to such things as
Special:Contributions.

-Matt
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Re: Stats on deletion

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Patrick-Emil Zörner-2
Patrick-Emil Zörner wrote:
> I do not even understand what the hell you are talking about.

You claim that German law applies; I claim that Iranian law applies. Who
is more correct?

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