Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
68 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

K. Peachey-2
Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.

Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to


edit them.
Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
<https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e,n,z>

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/



Someone clearly can't take criticism of their projects well.
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik Moeller-4
Hi folks,

Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
intent to remove this capability.

However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
down.

Thanks,
Erik
--
Erik Möller
VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

svetlana
In reply to this post by K. Peachey-2
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014, at 23:19, K. Peachey wrote:

> Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.
>
> Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
> Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
> of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to
> edit them.
> Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
> <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e,n,z>
>
> https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/

This change solves a problem that does not exist.
We either trust sysops, or we don't.

Erik Moeller wrote:
> In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these
> changes as with any other deployed code

I hope such things will not need to go through the WMF. Or is that what you'd like?

svetlana.

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Nicolas Vervelle-4
Le 10 août 2014 15:35, "svetlana" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2014, at 23:19, K. Peachey wrote:
> > Lets all welcome the new overlord Erik.
> >
> > Add a new protection level called "superprotect"
> > Assigned to nobody by default. Requested by Erik Möller for the purposes
> > of protecting pages such that sysop permissions are not sufficient to
> > edit them.
> > Change-Id: Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e
> > <
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#q,Idfa211257dbacc7623d42393257de1525ff01e9e,n,z

>
> >
> > https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153302/
>
> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
> We either trust sysops, or we don't.
>
> Erik Moeller wrote:
> > In the long run, we will want to
> > apply a code review process to these
> > changes as with any other deployed code
>
> I hope such things will not need to go through the WMF. Or is that what
you'd like?

I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.

Nico
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Derk-Jan Hartman
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
On 10 aug. 2014, at 14:27, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.

I agree that the current situation is basically something that grew historically that is no longer sustainable. For a long time this was not really a problem and good faith made it work regardless of how broken it was, but when it is used for manipulation, then action is required.

This is not a new thing, but perhaps a clarification that was long over due (and one we perhaps we shied away from too long). We need to collaborate to iterate and improve the software for our movement. I'm the first to support the fact that we have not been able to do that in the past for many reasons. We are now becoming more capable, but we will also still be making a lot of mistakes from various roles, while building the actual feedback loop required to perfect this process. BUT that is a separate issue and there are different venues for that, which are not Common.js -like methodologies.

DJ ,
Volunteer developer


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

signature.asc (817 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Michał Łazowik
In reply to this post by Nicolas Vervelle-4
Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle <[hidden email]> w dniu 10 sie 2014, o godz. 15:45:

> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.

I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality, security
and performance (applies to javascript).

Michał

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

signature.asc (858 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Marius Hoch
In reply to this post by Derk-Jan Hartman
Totally agree with that, dirty common.js hacks aren't really beneficial
for anyone.

Cheers,

Marius


On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 14:56 +0100, Derk-Jan Hartman wrote:

> On 10 aug. 2014, at 14:27, Erik Moeller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> > MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> > a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> > This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> > situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> > help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> > down.
>
> I agree that the current situation is basically something that grew historically that is no longer sustainable. For a long time this was not really a problem and good faith made it work regardless of how broken it was, but when it is used for manipulation, then action is required.
>
> This is not a new thing, but perhaps a clarification that was long over due (and one we perhaps we shied away from too long). We need to collaborate to iterate and improve the software for our movement. I'm the first to support the fact that we have not been able to do that in the past for many reasons. We are now becoming more capable, but we will also still be making a lot of mistakes from various roles, while building the actual feedback loop required to perfect this process. BUT that is a separate issue and there are different venues for that, which are not Common.js -like methodologies.
>
> DJ ,
> Volunteer developer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Maarten Dammers
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
Hi Erik,

I understand you reasoning, but you couldn't have communicated and timed
this in a worse way. You might be doing the right thing, but because of
this ill communication and timing, this will be completely overshadowed.
That saddens me. Good luck with the shit storm........ :-(

Maarten

Erik Moeller schreef op 10-8-2014 14:27:

> Hi folks,
>
> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
> for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
> deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
> intent to remove this capability.
>
> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.
>
> Thanks,
> Erik


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

John Mark Vandenberg
In reply to this post by Michał Łazowik
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Michał Łazowik <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle <[hidden email]> w dniu 10 sie 2014, o godz. 15:45:
>
>> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
>> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will use
>> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
>> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
>> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
>
> I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality, security
> and performance (applies to javascript).

It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.

https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&action=history

I remember when we used to beg for the WMF to deploy extensions.
Now we really need to beg for the WMF to not deploy extensions ...

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

James HK
Hi,

> It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.

User JEissfeldt, removed `mw.config.set("wgMediaViewerOnClick",
false);` from Common.js [0] and is the same person who sets
`<protect-level-superprotect>`.

I have no idea what the German community wants or doesn't want but
using `protect-level-superprotect` to block potential edits is rather
questionable.

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=132946422

Cheers

On 8/10/14, John Mark Vandenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Michał Łazowik <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Wiadomość napisana przez Nicolas Vervelle <[hidden email]> w dniu 10
>> sie 2014, o godz. 15:45:
>>
>>> I hope it's not an other step from WMF to prevent the application of
>>> community decisions when they not agree with it. I fear that they will
>>> use
>>> this to bypass community decisions. For example like forcing again VE on
>>> everyone on enwki: last year, sysop were able to apply community decision
>>> against Erik wishes only because they had access to site wide js or CSS.
>>
>> I'd like to believe that code-reviewing would mean improving code quality,
>> security
>> and performance (applies to javascript).
>
> It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.
>
> https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&action=history
>
> I remember when we used to beg for the WMF to deploy extensions.
> Now we really need to beg for the WMF to not deploy extensions ...
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Nicolas Vervelle-4
Le 10 août 2014 17:06, "James HK" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> Hi,
>
> > It could mean that, but of course it is actually introduced to prevent
> > the German community from deactivating the Media Viewer.
>
> User JEissfeldt, removed `mw.config.set("wgMediaViewerOnClick",
> false);` from Common.js [0] and is the same person who sets
> `<protect-level-superprotect>`.
>
> I have no idea what the German community wants or doesn't want but
> using `protect-level-superprotect` to block potential edits is rather
> questionable.
>
> [0]
https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.js&diff=prev&oldid=132946422
>

Thanks for the diff... That shows what this super protect power is really
for: WMF forcing something against community wishes/discussion. My fear
wasn't unfounded. Clearly a huge step backwards for the wiki philosophy
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Ricordisamoa
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
Il 10/08/2014 15:27, Erik Moeller ha scritto:

> Hi folks,
>
> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
> for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
> apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
> deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
> intent to remove this capability.
>
> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
> down.
>
> Thanks,
> Erik
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&dir=prev&offset=20140810134614&limit=1&type=gblrights

WMF vs. community?
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotection

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Ricordisamoa
Il 10/08/2014 19:33, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:

> Il 10/08/2014 15:27, Erik Moeller ha scritto:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user
>> experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS,
>> etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used
>> for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to
>> apply a code review process to these changes as with any other
>> deployed code, but for now the system works as it is and we have no
>> intent to remove this capability.
>>
>> However, we've clarified in a number of venues that use of the
>> MediaWiki: namespace to disable site features is unacceptable. If such
>> a conflict arises, we're prepared to revoke permissions if required.
>> This protection level provides an additional path to manage these
>> situations by preventing edits to the relevant pages (we're happy to
>> help apply any urgent edits) until a particular situation has calmed
>> down.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Erik
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&dir=prev&offset=20140810134614&limit=1&type=gblrights 
>
>
> WMF vs. community?
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotection
Updated link:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotect_rights

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erwin Dokter
In reply to this post by svetlana
On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:
>
> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
> We either trust sysops, or we don't.

I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code
additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.

*Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js
that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and
common.js is superprotected.

Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!

Regards,
--
Erwin Dokter


_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Benjamin Lees
This seems like an unfortunate escalation on the WMF's part.  Both sides
have a responsibility to try to work together, but as a practical matter,
the community does not answer to a single person, and the WMF staff do:
it's likely that the first olive branch is going to need to come from the
WMF side.
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Erwin Dokter
Erwin Dokter wrote:

>On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:
>> This change solves a problem that does not exist.
>> We either trust sysops, or we don't.
>
>I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code
>additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.
>
>*Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js
>that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and
>common.js is superprotected.
>
>Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!

Page protection doesn't persist if you delete and restore the page, as a
German Wikipedia admin has now pointed out with "MediaWiki:Common.js".

I agree with svetlana as well: the security of the entire MediaWiki
infrastructure, which in turn is the security of a large portion of
Wikimedia wikis, relies on the idea that local administrators can be
trusted. Erik has now personally re-super-protected "MediaWiki:Common.js"
and he continues to stoke the fires of war with the German Wikipedia.

MZMcBride



_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Tomasz W. Kozłowski-2
In reply to this post by Erik Moeller-4
This is, by far, the most disgusting and disrespectful action
undertaken by the Foundation that I have ever witnessed. The 2012 mass
desysopping of volunteer administrators on the WMF wiki and the past
threats of desysopping users re: VisualEditor and MediaViewer do not
even come close to this.

It is clear to me that the Foundation has agreed on this sneaky change
behind closed doors while some of the most outspoken Wikimedia
volunteers were (and still are) gathered in London. This is not the
first time that we're seeing this happpen, and it is clear to me that
the Foundation has lost all remaining moral authority to talk about
transparency and involving volunteers in the decision-making process.

Erik has forced his employees, including a so-called community
advocacy liaison, to use this opportunity to actively fight the
volunteer community of the German Wikipedia. He himself has engaged in
a wheel war over this, and continues to shove MediaViewer down the
German Wikipedia's community throat.

I'm not sure what was the purpose of this change, but if its aim was
to escalate the already tense situation between the WMF and its
volunteer communities regarding MediaViewer, protecting the
MediaWiki:Common.js page so that no one can edit it was the perfect
choice.

This action will cause a huge shitstorm, and Erik deserves every bit
of shit and mud that will be thrown his way.

You can force anything you like on your employees, but you cannot
force the volunteer community to do what you want, not in a manner
like this.

Remember that in the end, the community can exist without the WMF, but
there is no WMF without the community.

--
                Tomasz

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Ricordisamoa
In reply to this post by MZMcBride-2
<hopeless>I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the matter</hopeless>

_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Vi to
In reply to this post by Erwin Dokter
Superprotect is a feature, the way it will be used must be determined by
consensus, on a theoretical basis there are different possible good uses.
But, anyway, anyone using this feature should be accountable to the
community, like anyone holding any advanced rights.

Vito

Inviato con AquaMail per Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


Il 10 agosto 2014 20:01:19 Erwin Dokter <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> On 10-08-2014 15:35, svetlana wrote:
> >
> > This change solves a problem that does not exist.
> > We either trust sysops, or we don't.
>
> I concur. There are enough admins available to revert bad code
> additions. Also, this measure is completely without effect.
>
> *Suppose* I were a rogue admin wanting to add some bad code to common.js
> that disables some WMF feature; I will be reverted by staff and
> common.js is superprotected.
>
> Oh well, I'll just create a hidden default gadget... Happy hunting!
>
> Regards,
> --
> Erwin Dokter
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Siebrand Mazeland-2
In reply to this post by Ricordisamoa

> Op 10 aug. 2014 om 20:12 heeft Ricordisamoa <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:
>
> <hopeless>I'd really like to hear Jimbo's opinion on the matter</hopeless>

You should really watch Jimmy's speech at the Wikimania closing session. You might be surprised.

Cheers!

--
Siebrand
_______________________________________________
Wikitech-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
1234