TOU notice

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TOU notice

Redaktor/פוילישער
Nemo wrote:


<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:NoticeTemplate/view&template=TOU_top&wpUserLanguage=all>
There are no translations of this banner in yi. I currently see an 
English message on yi.wiki, which isn't nice (I'd rather disable them 
all) but is technically correct. I suppose the WMF is going to ask for 
translations soon.

If you want a translation (which I do want!) then there has to be a means of doing it.

I cannot see where to translate the TOU notice.

Percy


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Re: TOU notice

James Alexander-4
I'm setting up a translation spot now for everyone. I'll send out a link here once it's set up

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Redaktor/פוילישער <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nemo wrote:


<https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:NoticeTemplate/view&template=TOU_top&wpUserLanguage=all>
There are no translations of this banner in yi. I currently see an 
English message on yi.wiki, which isn't nice (I'd rather disable them 
all) but is technically correct. I suppose the WMF is going to ask for 
translations soon.

If you want a translation (which I do want!) then there has to be a means of doing it.

I cannot see where to translate the TOU notice.

Percy


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Re: TOU notice

Michael Wolf-2
In reply to this post by Redaktor/פוילישער
Redaktor/פוילישער schrieb:

> If you want a translation (which I do want!) then there has to be a means of doing it.
>
> I cannot see where to translate the TOU notice.

I do not understand that. Why aren't the requested translations listed
on the corresponding page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests

Not every translator knows that he should leave its translation on
Philippe's talk page. I aske on the Terms of Use talk page and he
accidentally saw my message.

Regards,
Michawiki


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Re: TOU notice

James Alexander-4
I'm not sure though given the wide spread of where all of the translation instructions and procedures are I imagine because it slipped through the cracks. I'll put them there when I'm done with the banner translation set up.

James

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Michael Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
Redaktor/פוילישער schrieb:


If you want a translation (which I do want!) then there has to be a means of doing it.

I cannot see where to translate the TOU notice.

I do not understand that. Why aren't the requested translations listed on the corresponding page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests

Not every translator knows that he should leave its translation on Philippe's talk page. I aske on the Terms of Use talk page and he accidentally saw my message.

Regards,
Michawiki



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Re: TOU notice

James Alexander-4
The banner is up for translation at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Bannerhttp://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par. Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.

Regarding the translation requests page. It appears those are completely done by categories and not a manual list. Could someone confirm that adding the categories won't hurt the translate extension's translations? If they don't then we can obviously add the categories and get them listed.

James

On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not sure though given the wide spread of where all of the translation instructions and procedures are I imagine because it slipped through the cracks. I'll put them there when I'm done with the banner translation set up.

James


On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Michael Wolf <[hidden email]> wrote:
Redaktor/פוילישער schrieb:


If you want a translation (which I do want!) then there has to be a means of doing it.

I cannot see where to translate the TOU notice.

I do not understand that. Why aren't the requested translations listed on the corresponding page:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests

Not every translator knows that he should leave its translation on Philippe's talk page. I aske on the Terms of Use talk page and he accidentally saw my message.

Regards,
Michawiki



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Re: TOU notice

Michael Wolf-2
In reply to this post by James Alexander-4
James Alexander schrieb:
> I'm not sure though given the wide spread of where all of the translation
> instructions and procedures are I imagine because it slipped through the
> cracks. I'll put them there when I'm done with the banner translation set
> up.

The translation instructions and procedures are not my point at present.
But, when a banner is activated, should be specified where you can
translate it. and the well-tried page for this is

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Translation_requests

I don't like untranslated texts in "my" Wikipedias: the Lower Sorbian
and the Upper Sorbian. :-)

Regards,
Michawiki

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Re: TOU notice

Michael Wolf-2
In reply to this post by James Alexander-4
James Alexander schrieb:
> The banner is up for translation at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner /
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner.

I get an error message that I am unauthorized to translate:

"Unauthorized

You do not have permission to create pages, for the following reason:

This namespace is reserved for content page translations. The page you
are trying to edit does not seem to correspond any page marked for
translation."

Except for that I've already translated the banner into Upper Sorbian
and Lower Sorbian, the translation should be possible or me by the
translation tool as well.

Regards
Michawiki


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Re: TOU notice

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by James Alexander-4
2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
> The banner is up for translation
> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.

Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
order would be "Terms of use new our etc."

--
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Re: TOU notice

James Alexander-4
I'm certainly up for thoughts and correction but because of the links I thought we would usually split it up like this. These pieces are also how it has to be input into central notice (certainly Lego but not totally sure of better ways).

Sent from my iPhone


James Alexander
Manager - Merchandise
Wikimedia Foundation
+1 415-839-6885 x6716


On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:12 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>> The banner is up for translation
>> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
>> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
>> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
>> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
>> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
>> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.
>
> Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
> what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
> pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
> order would be "Terms of use new our etc."
>
> --
> Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

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Re: TOU notice

Benjamin Chen-2
I don't think using the translate extension is good for centralauth translation. 

1) Old method is much easier to track modification to already-published translation. 

2) For language with a lot of varients, say Chinese, we usually have zh-cn zh-hans zh-sg zh-my being identical, and zh zh-hant zh-hk zh-tw zh-mo being identical. Putting them on seperate pages not only waste resources and energy, but also makes it harder to sync - one may only update zh-hant and forget about the rest.

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:17 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm certainly up for thoughts and correction but because of the links I thought we would usually split it up like this. These pieces are also how it has to be input into central notice (certainly Lego but not totally sure of better ways).

Sent from my iPhone


James Alexander
Manager - Merchandise
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%2B1%20415-839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885">+1 415-839-6885 x6716


On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:12 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>> The banner is up for translation
>> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
>> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
>> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
>> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
>> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
>> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.
>
> Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
> what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
> pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
> order would be "Terms of use new our etc."
>
> --
> Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

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Re: TOU notice

Benjamin Chen-2
I meant centralnotice, not centralauth, of course. And I don't really like how this notice is pushed live without any translation... :(

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Benjamin Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't think using the translate extension is good for centralauth translation. 

1) Old method is much easier to track modification to already-published translation. 

2) For language with a lot of varients, say Chinese, we usually have zh-cn zh-hans zh-sg zh-my being identical, and zh zh-hant zh-hk zh-tw zh-mo being identical. Putting them on seperate pages not only waste resources and energy, but also makes it harder to sync - one may only update zh-hant and forget about the rest.

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:17 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm certainly up for thoughts and correction but because of the links I thought we would usually split it up like this. These pieces are also how it has to be input into central notice (certainly Lego but not totally sure of better ways).

Sent from my iPhone


James Alexander
Manager - Merchandise
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%2B1%20415-839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">+1 415-839-6885 x6716


On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:12 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>> The banner is up for translation
>> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
>> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
>> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
>> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
>> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
>> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.
>
> Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
> what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
> pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
> order would be "Terms of use new our etc."
>
> --
> Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

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Re: TOU notice

Benjamin Chen-2
On another note, the unnecessary spaces inline makes the Chinese translation (and any other language that does not use space to separate words) very ugly. Can someone fix that?

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Benjamin Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:
I meant centralnotice, not centralauth, of course. And I don't really like how this notice is pushed live without any translation... :(

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Benjamin Chen <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't think using the translate extension is good for centralauth translation. 

1) Old method is much easier to track modification to already-published translation. 

2) For language with a lot of varients, say Chinese, we usually have zh-cn zh-hans zh-sg zh-my being identical, and zh zh-hant zh-hk zh-tw zh-mo being identical. Putting them on seperate pages not only waste resources and energy, but also makes it harder to sync - one may only update zh-hant and forget about the rest.

Best regards,
[[User:Bencmq]] / Benjamin Chen



On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:17 AM, James Alexander <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm certainly up for thoughts and correction but because of the links I thought we would usually split it up like this. These pieces are also how it has to be input into central notice (certainly Lego but not totally sure of better ways).

Sent from my iPhone


James Alexander
Manager - Merchandise
Wikimedia Foundation
<a href="tel:%2B1%20415-839-6885%20x6716" value="+14158396885" target="_blank">+1 415-839-6885 x6716


On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:12 PM, "Amir E. Aharoni" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>> The banner is up for translation
>> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
>> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
>> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
>> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
>> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
>> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.
>
> Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
> what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
> pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
> order would be "Terms of use new our etc."
>
> --
> Amir
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l

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Re: TOU notice

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
re: word order

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Amir E. Aharoni
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2012/4/26 James Alexander <[hidden email]>:
>> The banner is up for translation
>> at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_use/Banner
>> / http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Terms+of+use%2FBanner
>> . I will add the translations already in as I can but if anyone else has a
>> couple minutes to help please feel free to so that we can get it up to par.
>> Sadly I have a conference today and have to leave for a session in 5 minutes
>> or so. If it isn't done I'll finish it when I'm done with that.
>
> Thanks, but unless i'm missing something, there's a problem: that's
> what we call a "lego message" in our jargon. It is made of several
> pieces and assume an English word order. In Hebrew the natural word
> order would be "Terms of use new our etc."

Fearing it would be too late to solve it, so my words are for the
record or future lesson:
the problem Amir pointed came from the structure/order of those three
messages: it assumes the word ToU is in the middle and added link
automatically. I guess there was assumption that a particular word
order - here the coupling noun and adjective - went universally, but
linguistically it isn't. In certain languages it would be "TOU New"
and in the others not.

For Hebrew, even ad hoc, Amir, I wonder if you make the top message
empty and just begin the last one with "new ...". Or you found already
a better solution hopefully.

Even it looks awkward and unsophisticated, for assuring better
internationalization, it would have better to put the whole wikified
message into one sole MediaWiki message, since the grammatical word
order, say, syntax, is widely varied among different natural
languages.
> --
> Amir
>
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member of Wikimedians in Kansai  / 関西ウィキメディアユーザ会 http://kansai.wikimedia.jp

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Re: TOU notice

Siebrand Mazeland
Op 26 apr. 2012 om 22:08 heeft KIZU Naoko <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:

> re: word order
>
>> Snip
>
> Even it looks awkward and unsophisticated, for assuring better
> internationalization, it would have better to put the whole wikified
> message into one sole MediaWiki message, since the grammatical word
> order, say, syntax, is widely varied among different natural
> languages.

Indeed. Patchwork messages[1] are highly discouraged in software localisation, and in these types of text probably even more so. Every time it is used, at least one sad kitten dies[2].

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/I18n#Avoid_patchwork_messages
[2] <http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKPilEx4C8HN2qUPq9Iorv1rMV_oqE8gsfxiiz0TOtOXgfL_EHng>

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Re: TOU notice

James Alexander-4
I can completely undertand that. It certainly may be possible that the best way to do it will have to be translating, as a whole, the full html message but that would be the only other real option (we can't do wikified text). Historically this has caused an awful lot of problems as well because translators would translate or change things they shouldn't (for example moving the link to the wrong word, translating pieces of the url that won't go anywhere or sending it to a "language" page that doesn't exist). We also end up with a large chunk of latin (url etc) and non-latin (everything else) characters to copy/paste into the CN interface at once which I've found to be very cumbersome and prone to errors. That said we're always going to have tradeoffs and want to find the way to make it the easiest and most usable for all sides (from translators to readers to those wanting translations)

James

On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Siebrand Mazeland <[hidden email]> wrote:
Op 26 apr. 2012 om 22:08 heeft KIZU Naoko <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:

> re: word order
>
>> Snip
>
> Even it looks awkward and unsophisticated, for assuring better
> internationalization, it would have better to put the whole wikified
> message into one sole MediaWiki message, since the grammatical word
> order, say, syntax, is widely varied among different natural
> languages.

Indeed. Patchwork messages[1] are highly discouraged in software localisation, and in these types of text probably even more so. Every time it is used, at least one sad kitten dies[2].

[1] http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/I18n#Avoid_patchwork_messages
[2] <http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKPilEx4C8HN2qUPq9Iorv1rMV_oqE8gsfxiiz0TOtOXgfL_EHng>

--
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M: <a href="tel:%2B31%206%2050%2069%201239" value="+31650691239">+31 6 50 69 1239
Skype: siebrand
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