TS and/vs. Labs

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TS and/vs. Labs

Dr. Trigon
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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?

Thanks and Greetings
DrTrigon
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

DaB.-4
Hello Dr. Trigon,
Am 10.08.2013 11:36, schrieb Dr. Trigon:
> Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
> approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?

The question seems to be a little bit to generic.

I can not speak for Labs, but the status of the Toolserver is more or
less the same as 6 moths ago – with the exception that there is now a
second paid root.
The TS is still underpaid and underpowered, but I guess there will be no
change of this until the end.
Personally I am more busy with my Non-TS-live at the moment.

If you make a more detailed question, maybe I can give you a more
detailed answer.

Sincerely,
DaB.


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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Magnus Manske-2
In reply to this post by Dr. Trigon
If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my experience so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique toolserver features, though.

Cheers,
Magnus


On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?

Thanks and Greetings
DrTrigon
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Alex Brollo
I don't know precisely what's happening, my skill & knowledge is barely sufficient to have a vague idea of what I'm doing; I just began to explore Labs .... I can only say thanks to DaB for opportunity and help that I fastly got when needed.

Alex 


2013/8/10 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>
If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my experience so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique toolserver features, though.

Cheers,
Magnus


On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?

Thanks and Greetings
DrTrigon
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Silke Meyer
Hi, DrTrigon, hi all!

Here are the essentials:

* Please migrate your tools to Tool Labs until June 30th 2014. (Roadmap: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en)

* Yes, there are replicas of the databases and many other features. It is made similar to the login servers on TS.

* Subscribe to labs-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/labs-l and/or join #wikimedia-labs on freenode. There are lots of people who will help you.

* Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just in case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I can to get you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.

* If you figure out things that aren't documented, please help others by writing it down, on-wiki (link below) or on labs-l.

* Read this list for updates.

* Some links:
** Tool Labs start page: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Tools
** Tool Labs documentation: https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Nova_Resource:Tools/Help (Documentation is ongoing, your help is appreciated!)

Any more specific questions? Please ask! :)
Greetings from Wikimania,
Silke


2013/8/11 Alex Brollo <[hidden email]>
I don't know precisely what's happening, my skill & knowledge is barely sufficient to have a vague idea of what I'm doing; I just began to explore Labs .... I can only say thanks to DaB for opportunity and help that I fastly got when needed.

Alex 


2013/8/10 Magnus Manske <[hidden email]>
If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my experience so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique toolserver features, though.

Cheers,
Magnus


On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?

Thanks and Greetings
DrTrigon
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Tel. (030) 219 158 260

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Maarten Dammers
In reply to this post by Dr. Trigon
Hi DrTrigon,

Op 10-8-2013 11:36, Dr. Trigon schreef:
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>
> Hello DaB!
>
> Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
> approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?
If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once in a
while and having very slow databases, you can probably start moving
stuff to toollabs.
I'm waiting for these bugs to be fixed. It's been more than 3 months now
and no clear estimate when it will be fixed.

Maarten

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Magnus Manske-2



On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Maarten Dammers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi DrTrigon,

Op 10-8-2013 11:36, Dr. Trigon schreef:

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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?
If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once in a while and having very slow databases, you can probably start moving stuff to toollabs.
I'm waiting for these bugs to be fixed. It's been more than 3 months now and no clear estimate when it will be fixed.


I don't think that's a fair representation. Despite some teething problems, Labs has been at least (probably more) reliable than the toolserver in the time I've been there. I have ported 25 tools to Labs now, including some heavy-duty ones, and they all seem to work fine.

Yes, there is the occasional bug (imagelinks table on cawiki is not working at the moment; roots are en route from Wikimania;-) but I don't see the traditional toolserver slowness, and Labs doesn't occasionally vanish behind 504 errors for hours at a time either.

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

addshorewiki
In reply to this post by Maarten Dammers

I apparently have failed to notice the above mentioned slow databases!

On 13 Aug 2013 10:14, "Maarten Dammers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi DrTrigon,

Op 10-8-2013 11:36, Dr. Trigon schreef:
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Hello DaB!

Could you please give me a short update - the end of 2013 is
approaching, what is the current state for TS resp. Labs?
If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once in a while and having very slow databases, you can probably start moving stuff to toollabs.
I'm waiting for these bugs to be fixed. It's been more than 3 months now and no clear estimate when it will be fixed.

Maarten

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Alex Brollo
In reply to this post by Alex Brollo
Thanks, I listed into labs-l and I logged into  #wikimedia-labs , I hope I will get help....  presently I found blocking issues bot in compat and in core, I'll ask there. 

Everyway, I keep my Toolserver account alive :-) 

Alex


2013/8/11 Silke Meyer <[hidden email]>
Hi Alex,

cool that you are having a go for Tool Labs. I really recommend the #wikimedia-labs channel. People help each other a lot. I consider it newby-friendly. Also on labs-l, I asked a lot of things myself and always got helpful replies.

Cheers, Silke



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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Maciej Jaros
In reply to this post by Silke Meyer
Silke Meyer (2013-08-11 08:36):
Hi, DrTrigon, hi all!

Here are the essentials:

* Please migrate your tools to Tool Labs until June 30th 2014. (Roadmap: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en)
[...]

Two questions:
  1. What will happen after June 2014? Specifically - what will happen to any tools and repositories (SVN) that will still be on TS after that date? Will TS cease to exist, will it be inaccessible, just databases will be inaccessible or stale or what?
  2. When will users from TS be able to fully use GIT? I'm asking because this page gives some information on migration process, but also mentions that Push access is not available. Which is kind of strange because, as I understand, I would be creating my own repository. I'm actually hoping this page just wasn't updated ;-).

Regards,
Nux.


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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

K. Peachey-2
On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Maciej Jaros <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When will users from TS be able to fully use GIT? I'm asking because this page gives some information on migration process, but also mentions that Push access is not available. Which is kind of strange because, as I understand, I would be creating my own repository. I'm actually hoping this page just wasn't updated ;-).

Anyone can use the Wikimedia Git setup right now! In regards to the push restrictions, That is so it is always visible in Gerrit (Makes tracking changes way easier), You can be given rights to self merge your own changes in your specific repos. And when requesting your repo, You can request push rights if desired.

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Platonides
In reply to this post by Silke Meyer
On 11/08/13 08:36, Silke Meyer wrote:
> * Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just in
> case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I can to get
> you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.

Provide a toolserver.wiki table please.

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Dr. Trigon
In reply to this post by DaB.-4
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Hello DaB

Thanks for your answer!

> If you make a more detailed question, maybe I can give you a more
> detailed answer.

E.g. is it still planned to discontinue the TS? Having 2 payed admins
does not sound like that... - good news?

Thanks and Greetings
DrTrigon
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Dr. Trigon
In reply to this post by Maarten Dammers
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> If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my experience
> so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique toolserver
> features, though.Cheers,Magnus

> If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once in
> a while and having very slow databases, you can probably start
> moving stuff to toollabs. I'm waiting for these bugs to be fixed.
> It's been more than 3 months now and no clear estimate when it will
> be fixed.

Yes that was also my experience - I started using Labs under the bots
project and it was not that reliable than TS, e.g. no backups of the
file system and stuff like that - hope this has changed with the tools
project now.

> * Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just
> in case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I can
> to
get > you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.

E.g. what about E-Mail? Do I have the possibility to forward mail
addresses like e.g. [hidden email] into a file?

Greetings
DrTrigon
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Ryan Lane-3
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]> wrote:
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> If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my experience
> so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique toolserver
> features, though.Cheers,Magnus

> If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once in
> a while and having very slow databases, you can probably start
> moving stuff to toollabs. I'm waiting for these bugs to be fixed.
> It's been more than 3 months now and no clear estimate when it will
> be fixed.

Yes that was also my experience - I started using Labs under the bots
project and it was not that reliable than TS, e.g. no backups of the
file system and stuff like that - hope this has changed with the tools
project now.


You're in for a world of difference. If you haven't switched over, you should try now.
 
> * Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just
> in case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I can
> to
get > you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.

E.g. what about E-Mail? Do I have the possibility to forward mail
addresses like e.g. [hidden email] into a file?


This isn't available yet, but we hope to have this worked out soon. It's waiting on legal.

- Ryan

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

DaB.-4
In reply to this post by Dr. Trigon
Hello,
Am 19.08.2013 23:49, schrieb Dr. Trigon:
> E.g. is it still planned to discontinue the TS? Having 2 payed admins
> does not sound like that... - good news?

yes, it is still the plan. The hiring of a second admin is independent
of everything.

Sincerely,
DaB.



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Yes, it will be switched off. (was: Re: TS and/vs. Labs)

Silke Meyer
In reply to this post by Dr. Trigon
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Hi, DrTrigon, hi Nux, hi all,

> E.g. is it still planned to discontinue the TS? Having 2 payed
> admins does not sound like that... - good news?

@DrTrigon:
Please look at the Roadmap at [1]. Yes, the Toolserver will be shut
down next year.
We found amette, the other paid part-time admin, to better share the
high workload of DaB. and nosy. This is not related to shutting down
the server as DaB. said.

> What will happen after June 2014? Specifically - what will happen
> to any tools and repositories (SVN) that will still be on TS after
> that date? Will TS cease to exist, will it be inaccessible, just
> databases will be inaccessible or stale or what?

@Nux:
We are still discussing the details of how to proceed after June 2014.
But the bottomline *is* that it will be switched off. Everyone will
have had more than a year to migrate their tools and delete them from
the Toolserver.

Best, Silke

[1] here again: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Tool_Labs/Roadmap_en
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Silke Meyer
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Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. (030) 219 158 260

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
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Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Luis Villa
In reply to this post by Ryan Lane-3

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Ryan Lane <[hidden email]> wrote:
> * Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just
> in case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I can
> to
get > you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.

E.g. what about E-Mail? Do I have the possibility to forward mail
addresses like e.g. [hidden email] into a file?


This isn't available yet, but we hope to have this worked out soon. It's waiting on legal.

Yes, this is my fault- apologies for the delay. I will address it when I get back from the CC Summit I'm attending right now.

Luis


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NOTICE: This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity.

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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Dr. Trigon
In reply to this post by Ryan Lane-3
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@DaB+Silke: Thanks for your infos!!

@Ryan: Of course I am trying labs already since quite some time now...
;) But you know there are some issues...
(1) is the mail thing - which should be solved soon
(2) is what to do with tools that are non-free or use non-free
libraries? What e.g. when the tool developer got permission to use a
library and it is open source - but the owner does not want to make it
free? Or the license(s) labs wants to enforce?

Greetings


On 20.08.2013 08:31, Ryan Lane wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>
>> If you're asking "is it safe to move tools to Labs", my
>> experience so far say "yes". I can't speak for all unique
>> toolserver features, though.Cheers,Magnus
>
>> If you don't care about losing your (nfs) file system every once
>> in a while and having very slow databases, you can probably
>> start moving stuff to toollabs. I'm waiting for these bugs to be
>> fixed. It's been more than 3 months now and no clear estimate
>> when it will be fixed.
>
> Yes that was also my experience - I started using Labs under the
> bots project and it was not that reliable than TS, e.g. no backups
> of the file system and stuff like that - hope this has changed with
> the tools project now.
>
>
> You're in for a world of difference. If you haven't switched over,
> you should try now.
>
>
>> * Most tools will just run when you copy them to Tool Labs. Just
>> in case: Need help adapting a tool? Ask me and I'll do what I
>> can to
> get > you help, e.g. from my colleague Johannes Kroll.
>
> E.g. what about E-Mail? Do I have the possibility to forward mail
> addresses like e.g. [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> into a file?
>
>
> This isn't available yet, but we hope to have this worked out soon.
> It's waiting on legal.
>
> - Ryan
>
>
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Re: TS and/vs. Labs

Ryan Lane-3
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:11 AM, Dr. Trigon <[hidden email]> wrote:
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@DaB+Silke: Thanks for your infos!!

@Ryan: Of course I am trying labs already since quite some time now...
;) But you know there are some issues...
(1) is the mail thing - which should be solved soon
(2) is what to do with tools that are non-free or use non-free
libraries? What e.g. when the tool developer got permission to use a
library and it is open source - but the owner does not want to make it
free? Or the license(s) labs wants to enforce?


If it isn't free, then it isn't open source. All we require is a valid OSI license. If it doesn't fit that license we either need to grant an exception (which isn't likely), or the tool author needs to use a different library.

The projects depend on the tools. If a tool is abandoned then we need to be able to take over the tool, which includes its source. If the tool is using something proprietary then it makes taking it over difficult or impossible.

Here's my stance: if a tool is using something proprietary, we can't count on that tool and it doesn't belong on Labs. The tool author either needs to switch to an open source library or move the tool to their own infrastructure.

- Ryan

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