Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

oscar-11
it would certainly be madness to have procedures that would ask people to do
an excellent job twice, let alone many times over.

the questions raised here seem to me:
*how can we make such fortunate results not disappear down the drain?
*would the torino-sponsors be willing to do the same for 2008?
*how long can we afford to wait with this without spoiling the opportunity?

even if the choice of a city hosting wikimania needs to be made sooner and
sooner in years to come (we may want to set a limit in "booking" here, say,
3 years?), the bids themselves should always be judged on their own merits
first of all, the geographical location being important too, yet coming
second in line as a criteria imho.

it may be wise to agree upon this: that a bid which doesn't make it for one
year, may run once more and make it the year after. such a prospect, when
communicated in advance, could prevent serious disappointment for some of
our potential sponsors (they would feel less "turned down" because there is
always a second chance). also it would be good to discuss and know this at
an early stage: if, from a sponsors point of view, a bid is valid for one
calendar-year only, or perhaps also for the next, in case a city isn't
elected.

oscar

On 9/28/06, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Not that it is up to me, nor should it be, but I intend to be a strong
> personal supporter of Turin for 2008, and encourage the concept that we
> should settle this fairly soon.
>
> Gianluigi Gamba wrote:
> > I congratulate with Taipei team and I'm sure they'll organize a
> memorable
> > event.
> >
> > As a member of the Turin bidding team, let me voice a choral "too bad".
> > We had a sort of incredible "astral conjunction" of sponsors *really
> eager*
> > to have the Wikimania event, the enthusiasm of the whole community, the
> > honeymoon with the media and the commitment of many people from national
> > (and not only) institutions.
> > I wonder if such combination will return in a future. I hope so.
> >
> > A prayer to the future jury: that's not been this year's case, but
> should
> > geographic and linguistic criteria be essential in choosing the future
> > locations, please say it in advance, before people start making
> contacts,
> > put their faces off and spend words.
> >
> > Good luck Taipei, and good job.
> >
> > G. (aka Paginazero)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

oscar-11
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
On 9/29/06, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think that it helps the transparency of the process when someone
> like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the bidding has seriously
> started.


this is not the point, jimbo imho raises 3 questions which we need to
address.

(quoting my email:)
*how can we make such fortunate results not disappear down the drain?
*would the torino-sponsors be willing to do the same for 2008?
*how long can we afford to wait with this without spoiling the opportunity?

oscar
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by oscar-11
Hoi,
When people want Wikimania happening in 2007 in their town and they do their
best to achieve this, they do this on the basis of competition. They
compete. They either win or lose as there is only one place where Wikimania
will happen. This is the way of things, considering things to be different
is madness.

In Taipei we will have a completely different event from the event in
Frankfurt and Boston. Each time we learned new things and the resulting
offers for hosting were different as a consequence. Not allowing for this by
saying in advance that Turin does not have to do "the work" again is imho
stupid. In order for Turin to be a competitor next year, they have to
analyse what went wrong; was it their offer, their presentation sheer bad
luck?

Trying for Wikimania is without guarantees, all competing cities had a
credible offer. Only one could be chosen. Picking out Turin for next year is
bad business, it is an insult to the other cities that made an offer and it
is a message to other cities that they should not bother for 2008 because it
is likely to be Turin.

Turin may compete again, sure, but it has to compete on an equal footing. If
Almere 2008 is to be a credible option, there cannot be a prefered city for
2008. It is morally wrong.

Thanks,
    GerardM

NB Still living in Almere

On 9/29/06, oscar <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> it would certainly be madness to have procedures that would ask people to
> do
> an excellent job twice, let alone many times over.
>
> the questions raised here seem to me:
> *how can we make such fortunate results not disappear down the drain?
> *would the torino-sponsors be willing to do the same for 2008?
> *how long can we afford to wait with this without spoiling the
> opportunity?
>
> even if the choice of a city hosting wikimania needs to be made sooner and
> sooner in years to come (we may want to set a limit in "booking" here,
> say,
> 3 years?), the bids themselves should always be judged on their own merits
> first of all, the geographical location being important too, yet coming
> second in line as a criteria imho.
>
> it may be wise to agree upon this: that a bid which doesn't make it for
> one
> year, may run once more and make it the year after. such a prospect, when
> communicated in advance, could prevent serious disappointment for some of
> our potential sponsors (they would feel less "turned down" because there
> is
> always a second chance). also it would be good to discuss and know this at
> an early stage: if, from a sponsors point of view, a bid is valid for one
> calendar-year only, or perhaps also for the next, in case a city isn't
> elected.
>
> oscar
>
> On 9/28/06, Jimmy Wales <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Not that it is up to me, nor should it be, but I intend to be a strong
> > personal supporter of Turin for 2008, and encourage the concept that we
> > should settle this fairly soon.
> >
> > Gianluigi Gamba wrote:
> > > I congratulate with Taipei team and I'm sure they'll organize a
> > memorable
> > > event.
> > >
> > > As a member of the Turin bidding team, let me voice a choral "too
> bad".
> > > We had a sort of incredible "astral conjunction" of sponsors *really
> > eager*
> > > to have the Wikimania event, the enthusiasm of the whole community,
> the
> > > honeymoon with the media and the commitment of many people from
> national
> > > (and not only) institutions.
> > > I wonder if such combination will return in a future. I hope so.
> > >
> > > A prayer to the future jury: that's not been this year's case, but
> > should
> > > geographic and linguistic criteria be essential in choosing the future
> > > locations, please say it in advance, before people start making
> > contacts,
> > > put their faces off and spend words.
> > >
> > > Good luck Taipei, and good job.
> > >
> > > G. (aka Paginazero)
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gatto Nero
2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:

> In Taipei we will have a completely different event from the event in
> Frankfurt and Boston. Each time we learned new things and the resulting
> offers for hosting were different as a consequence. Not allowing for this by
> saying in advance that Turin does not have to do "the work" again is imho
> stupid. In order for Turin to be a competitor next year, they have to
> analyse what went wrong; was it their offer, their presentation sheer bad
> luck?

Turin is not in Asia.
(Oh, and we didn't talk about "secret sponsorship", right: how came
that a bid as been even shortlisted with this sort of "Yes, you have
to trust us: we have a huuuuuge sponsor but we cannot tell you who,
secret secret!"?
Not talking about strange flight cost, strange "surplus sponsorship"
and other funny reason...)

[Beware: this is Gatto Nero's opinion, not "Wikimania2007Torino
Bidding Team"'s opinion]
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gerard Meijssen-3
Hoi,
Both Turin and Almere are in Europe. Both should be allowed to enter the
2008 competition. Rio de Janeiro or Johannesburg or Adelaide or Dullsville
should be allowed to enter the 2008 competition. There is NO reason why they
should not be allowed to compete on equal footing.

When there are things about the 2007 competition that were problematic, they
should be part of the learning process that may be happening before the
competition for Wikimania 2008 starts.

Wikimania 2007 will be in Taipei.

Thanks,
    GerardM

On 9/29/06, Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
>
> > In Taipei we will have a completely different event from the event in
> > Frankfurt and Boston. Each time we learned new things and the resulting
> > offers for hosting were different as a consequence. Not allowing for
> this by
> > saying in advance that Turin does not have to do "the work" again is
> imho
> > stupid. In order for Turin to be a competitor next year, they have to
> > analyse what went wrong; was it their offer, their presentation sheer
> bad
> > luck?
>
> Turin is not in Asia.
> (Oh, and we didn't talk about "secret sponsorship", right: how came
> that a bid as been even shortlisted with this sort of "Yes, you have
> to trust us: we have a huuuuuge sponsor but we cannot tell you who,
> secret secret!"?
> Not talking about strange flight cost, strange "surplus sponsorship"
> and other funny reason...)
>
> [Beware: this is Gatto Nero's opinion, not "Wikimania2007Torino
> Bidding Team"'s opinion]
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gatto Nero
2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
> Hoi,
> Both Turin and Almere are in Europe. Both should be allowed to enter the
> 2008 competition. Rio de Janeiro or Johannesburg or Adelaide or Dullsville
> should be allowed to enter the 2008 competition. There is NO reason why they
> should not be allowed to compete on equal footing.

I agree that everyone should have the right to compete in an *equal*
competition (that's the stress: *equal*).
There is no reason why Turin should be favoured for 2008, just as
Taipei should have not been favoured for 2007 (even if this has
happened). Bids should be evaluated only for what they are and what
they say, for the work done, for their accuracy, for they originality
(maybe).
Personally (and repeat: personally, as Gatto Nero), I think that this
proposal - favouring Torino for 2008 - is just as offensive for our
work as the choose made for 2007. You know, all this "second choice"
thing remember me of Olympic Games in Sidney and then in Athens.
Or of a mother that gives candy to their children just to keep them quite.
But again: it's my opinion. There are italians really happy for what Jimbo said.

> When there are things about the 2007 competition that were problematic, they
> should be part of the learning process that may be happening before the
> competition for Wikimania 2008 starts.

Just like changing the jury? Or maybe considering more what people
outside uk/en/jury members think and prefer?

Gatto Nero
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Hsiang-Tai Chien
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
There is no secret sponsorship for Taipei anymore. They are DotAsia.org and
Chung-Hwa Telecom in Taiwan and they did promise the amount as we listed in
the bidding page. And I believe there will be more amounts because now we
have more sponsors willing to help.

We keep it secret before the bidding final because DotAsia.org has bussiness
in many cities, and they do not wish to offend their customers in those
cities so they ask us to keep it secret until the bidding result is out.

And if you wish to know, a employee from DotAsia.org now is in our team to
help for organizing Wikimania 2007.

I wish to remind that we should respect the sponsors because they recognize
the vision of Wikimedia Foundation and they are willing to help us to host
this big WM event.

For the flight price, the fare we listed on the bidding page is the fare we
checked in *this* August. And yes it might have estimation errors because
the fare is changing every day and it should be firmed when the time of
Wikimania 2007 is coming closely. It would be also related with what travel
agency you choose and how you take the flight.

Thanks and best regards,
H.T.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gatto Nero
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:

> In Taipei we will have a completely different event from the event in
> Frankfurt and Boston. Each time we learned new things and the
> resulting offers for hosting were different as a consequence. Not
> allowing for this by saying in advance that Turin does not have to do
> "the work" again is imho stupid. In order for Turin to be a competitor
> next year, they have to analyse what went wrong; was it their offer,
> their presentation sheer bad luck?

Turin is not in Asia.
(Oh, and we didn't talk about "secret sponsorship", right: how came that a
bid as been even shortlisted with this sort of "Yes, you have to trust us:
we have a huuuuuge sponsor but we cannot tell you who, secret secret!"?
Not talking about strange flight cost, strange "surplus sponsorship"
and other funny reason...)

[Beware: this is Gatto Nero's opinion, not "Wikimania2007Torino Bidding
Team"'s opinion] _______________________________________________
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gatto Nero
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:

> Wikimania 2007 will be in Taipei.

Oh, I forgot: we all noticed that Wikimania 2007 will be hold in Taipei.
I'm just saying that this was not a fair choose, just 'till someone
will be able to bring me factual and believable reasons for this.

Gatto Nero
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by oscar-11
oscar wrote:

>On 9/29/06, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>I don't think that it helps the transparency of the process when someone
>>like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the bidding has seriously
>>started.
>>    
>>
>this is not the point, jimbo imho raises 3 questions which we need to
>address.
>
>(quoting my email:)
>*how can we make such fortunate results not disappear down the drain?
>*would the torino-sponsors be willing to do the same for 2008?
>*how long can we afford to wait with this without spoiling the opportunity?
>
I have no problem with these questions.  It is nevertheless important,
assuming that Torino is still interested for 2008, that other cities
have the opportunity to make bids that will be considered seriously.  
Cities interested for 2008 that were either undinterested or
unenthusiastic about 2007 could still present something for 2008.  To be
sure the existing Torino bid will establish a tough standard to beat,
but that should not stop others from trying.

As to how long we can wake, I believe that the decision should be made
relatively soon.  At the very minimum the winners for 2008 should have
time to prepare a presentation to the delegates in Taipei inviting them
to their city the following year, and generating enthusiasm.

For 2009 and later we need to solidify our processes and timetable for
selecting the city.  Perhaps the candidates for 2009 can be known in
time for Taipei so that people there can start informally expressing
their opinion.  The final decison must remain with a limited group that
is capable of evaluating bids objectively.

Ec

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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by oscar-11


--- oscar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9/29/06, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't think that it helps the transparency of
> the process when someone
> > like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the
> bidding has seriously
> > started.
>
>
> this is not the point, jimbo imho raises 3 questions
> which we need to
> address.
>
> (quoting my email:)
> *how can we make such fortunate results not
> disappear down the drain?

This is a good question and others have suggested
trying to convert the Turin bid a European conference
if not an Italian one.

> *would the torino-sponsors be willing to do the same
> for 2008?

That is a bad question.  How can we give any opinion
on 2008 when we have not seen any of the final
submissions.  2008 should be a wide open race except
for a preference *against* Asia.  But if an Asian bid
is three times as better as anything else that
preference could be overcome.  I think these sort of
comments are what led to all the hard feelings in the
first place.  Wikimanina 2008 could be anywhere.  If
you want it compete hard, but don't raise false hopes
and think of a backup plan of a more local use for the
work from the beginning.  I really would like to see
everyone stop making preferential comments about
future Wikimania's, especially people involved enough
in WMF that they could possibly end up on some future
jury.

> *how long can we afford to wait with this without
> spoiling the opportunity?


This is a good question in refference to a European or
I talian meetup and out of line regarding WM2008,  The
rules for submissions for 2008 bids are already
public.  The only goal of the jury is should be
choosing the best bid. Period.

Birgitte SB

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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by Gatto Nero


--- Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2006/9/29, GerardM <[hidden email]>:
>
> > In Taipei we will have a completely different
> event from the event in
> > Frankfurt and Boston. Each time we learned new
> things and the resulting
> > offers for hosting were different as a
> consequence. Not allowing for this by
> > saying in advance that Turin does not have to do
> "the work" again is imho
> > stupid. In order for Turin to be a competitor next
> year, they have to
> > analyse what went wrong; was it their offer, their
> presentation sheer bad
> > luck?
>
> Turin is not in Asia.
> (Oh, and we didn't talk about "secret sponsorship",
> right: how came
> that a bid as been even shortlisted with this sort
> of "Yes, you have
> to trust us: we have a huuuuuge sponsor but we
> cannot tell you who,
> secret secret!"?
> Not talking about strange flight cost, strange
> "surplus sponsorship"
> and other funny reason...)
>
> [Beware: this is Gatto Nero's opinion, not
> "Wikimania2007Torino
> Bidding Team"'s opinion]

I don't see a problem with not being able to publicly
name a sponser.  I am sure they were aware that
winning the bid was based on this and if it had not
been posted publically afterwards the win should have
beeen revoked.  Strange flight costs do sound like a
problem, but I don't know what mean by this.  Have
they changed their numbers after they won?

Birgitte SB

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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Andrew Gray
In reply to this post by Birgitte_sb
On 29/09/06, Birgitte SB <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > (quoting my email:)
> > *how can we make such fortunate results not
> > disappear down the drain?
>
> This is a good question and others have suggested
> trying to convert the Turin bid a European conference
> if not an Italian one.

I would be very interested in attending a conference in Torino,
certainly, if the details are broadly the same as they were before -
it's accessible enough from most of Europe that we could get a lot of
attendees for whom Taipei is simply not a possibility, and the
European community as a whole is sufficiently diverse and active that
it seems the most likely to be able to support a regional conference.

--
- Andrew Gray
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Alison M. Wheeler
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
On Thu, September 28, 2006 12:07, David Gerard wrote:
> The procedure as it is evidently needs work, since other bidders (e.g.
> London) are disappointed at their hard work being pretty much wasted.
and
> The current system seems to ensure a lot of volunteer time and effort
> being futile. This is damaging to the project.

Coming a little late to this discussion, could I (as one of the leads on
the London bid) say that (a) I don't see the need for a bidding process as
at all 'damaging' nor, other than the first few hours after the decision
was announced am I that disappointed. Yes, the work is 'wasted' by some
views, but much of it will get recycled into other projects (the schools
outreach and community outreach programmes we had been planning are still
likely to go ahead in some form, for instance) and if you think we were
depressed be glad you weren't Paris at the latest declaration of the city
to host the Summer Olympics in 2012! So far as I am concerned I am happy
that Taipei will be hosting in 2007 and wish them well.

One thing I would definitely say though is that this process did point up
a few things that need sorting before the next city is chosen.

1. Travel costs; should be researched centrally by WMF or someone
independent from all the bids. It was clear that this caused great
friction in this year's bids as Taipei - by their own admission - used
this year's prices without taxes and surcharges even though actual-date
flight information and charges were available and used by other bids. This
meant that the bids information was clearly biased and inconsistent and
could mislead the analysts.

2. What is the *point* of Wikimania? Is it just for editors of Wikimedia
projects? Is it for technical/academic purposes? Is is (as we in London
had planned) a way to expand the 'reach' and use of the Wikimedia projects
to the wider population and not just those already in the FLOSS/wiki
sphere?

3. Extending from both of these points is that of who the attendees are;
the demographics of our editors and how much disposable income they have
to be able to fly around the world. In essence this is an old-fashioned
network routing calculation as whilst some people may be expensed to
attend Wikimania (the board, for example, and some presenters) most
attendees aren't and if we aim for 'free and open source' then we should
also aim for 'cheap and easy travel' too.

4. A last thought on location is the one of language and locality. The
nationality of the host location and its 'default language' don't have
that much effect on the conference itself - our working language is
english, after all - but they do on the attendees ability to travel
in-country and enjoy anything the location might offer outwith the
conference.

Could I also suggest that we should be seeking an 'independence of view'
from all people concerned with deciding on a venue or employees of same.
Brad's support for Torino during the selection period, and Jimbo's recent
comment here are, to my mind, very out of place and could easily suggest
to many that there is pressure being brought on them.

I was dishearted, indeed, to see that people were making suppositions
about different candidate cities external to the information those cities
made available about their offerings and that - if geographical
considerations are to form a part of the decision-makiong process - they
need to be clarified in advance and applied equally.

Alison Wheeler
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Brad Patrick
On 9/29/06, Alison Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One thing I would definitely say though is that this process did point up
> a few things that need sorting before the next city is chosen.
>
> 1. Travel costs; should be researched centrally by WMF or someone
> independent from all the bids. It was clear that this caused great
> friction in this year's bids as Taipei - by their own admission - used
> this year's prices without taxes and surcharges even though actual-date
> flight information and charges were available and used by other bids. This
> meant that the bids information was clearly biased and inconsistent and
> could mislead the analysts.
>

Whether or not the data were or were not biased or inconsistent, they
are certainly subject to change, gas prices, politics, etc.

> 2. What is the *point* of Wikimania? Is it just for editors of Wikimedia
> projects? Is it for technical/academic purposes? Is is (as we in London
> had planned) a way to expand the 'reach' and use of the Wikimedia projects
> to the wider population and not just those already in the FLOSS/wiki
> sphere?
>

This is the most poignant criticism of the process.  You are exactly
right.  What the purpose of a gathering is will change over time, as
WM has - WM05-06-07.  It is certainly not for the convenience of the
majority of editors.  It is, apparently in 2007, a "bold move" and
"evangelical" for a huge population of users who are on the rise.  But
yes, the point is, this discussion has not reached consensus.

> 3. Extending from both of these points is that of who the attendees are;
> the demographics of our editors and how much disposable income they have
> to be able to fly around the world. In essence this is an old-fashioned
> network routing calculation as whilst some people may be expensed to
> attend Wikimania (the board, for example, and some presenters) most
> attendees aren't and if we aim for 'free and open source' then we should
> also aim for 'cheap and easy travel' too.
>

See above.  NP complete problems are notoriously difficult to solve. =)

> 4. A last thought on location is the one of language and locality. The
> nationality of the host location and its 'default language' don't have
> that much effect on the conference itself - our working language is
> english, after all - but they do on the attendees ability to travel
> in-country and enjoy anything the location might offer outwith the
> conference.
>

We shall see how that works out.

> Could I also suggest that we should be seeking an 'independence of view'
> from all people concerned with deciding on a venue or employees of same.
> Brad's support for Torino during the selection period, and Jimbo's recent
> comment here are, to my mind, very out of place and could easily suggest
> to many that there is pressure being brought on them.
>

Third-person use alert:

Brad commented that the Torino bid looked great.  Please note,
however, the following:

a) Brad was *never* asked - not *once* to have any input in the
process by any member of the community, board member, or jury member.
Had I not been following along on the wiki myself, I would never had
known about the selection process, deadlines, applicants, finalists,
or winner.  Does *that* strike you as odd?

b) Brad explicity understood this process to be a *community* process
(the merits of which we - and do - disagree about) - see above - but
consider the response if he jumps in and says "I'm running this now".
/me doesn't think that would be acceptable.

c) So long as there was not rampant fraud or other evidence of
hijacking, which judging by the fall out might not be a clear answer,
why should this not be considered to be an acceptable community
process?  If you are suggesting that anything Jimbo or I said to
anyone had an effect, please show me where to look for its effect,
because it sure isn't in the result.

> I was dishearted, indeed, to see that people were making suppositions
> about different candidate cities external to the information those cities
> made available about their offerings and that - if geographical
> considerations are to form a part of the decision-makiong process - they
> need to be clarified in advance and applied equally.
>

Which "people" were making what suppositions?  I don't understand the
implication you are trying to reach, save for your feeling screwed.
As for me, I have never been to any of the *applicant* cities, much
less finalists, except Orlando, FL.  If you want to know about the
United States, I'm your man.  I am very widely traveled on this
continent.  If you want to know about elsewhere, ask Jimbo.  He's does
laps around other world travelers.  But how external knowledge of a
place fits in to your argument, sorry, does not compute.

> Alison Wheeler


--
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General Counsel & Interim Executive Director
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
[hidden email]
727-231-0101
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gianluigi Gamba
In reply to this post by Gatto Nero
Gatto Nero, I understand your disappointment, but

* disappointing 7 teams out of 8 was unavoidable;
* the jury decided legitimately taking into account all the available
information they had - they have the right and the duty to consider
geo-political strategies for better achieving the goals of the Foundation.
And I might be wrong, bringing access to the free knowledge where such free
knowledge is somehow obstacled is one of them.

suspicious innuendos about how the decision has been taken aren't of any
help for anyone.

G. (aka Paginazero)



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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gatto Nero
2006/9/29, Gianluigi Gamba <[hidden email]>:

> Gatto Nero, I understand your disappointment, but
>
> * disappointing 7 teams out of 8 was unavoidable;
> * the jury decided legitimately taking into account all the available
> information they had - they have the right and the duty to consider
> geo-political strategies for better achieving the goals of the Foundation.
> And I might be wrong, bringing access to the free knowledge where such free
> knowledge is somehow obstacled is one of them.
>
> suspicious innuendos about how the decision has been taken aren't of any
> help for anyone.

Oh Paginazero, per favore: la giuria ha deciso legittimamente?
Dear Paginazero, this politically-correctness is starting to disgust me.
I really am not so able to lie. My lie-ability level is really low, I
can't stand lies over lies. I'm sorry.

Should we deny that Taipei has been shortlisted with no secure
sponsorship at all?
(Just read what their bid said about sponsor at the time of the
shortlisting decision:
"The bidding team has contacted several potential sponsors. Some of
them have shown great interest in sponsoring Wikimania and covering
the core expenses in total on venue, accommodation, and catering. If
Taipei is selected as the host city for Wikimania 2007, the detailed
sponsorship arrangement will be finalized. According to our
conservative estimation, local sponsorship will be no less than
NT$1,500,000 (US$45,600+)."
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimania_2007/Taipei&oldid=435116#Local_sponsorship_opportunities
)
Why then include Taipei and exclude the other? On which basis?

Should we deny that a bid has been choosen that copied even the idea
of a logo from the Torino's bid? Even.

Should we deny that sj said Taipei was chosen 'cause "in the end they
had the most surplus sponsorship, in fact"?

Should we deny that this decision caused a rift and quite a fight
between the components of the jury?

Who all this denying should be of any help?
The community, not even heard about what they thought about all this
bid (and I talked with someone, lot of them preferred Torino, others -
minus, but my memory could by fallacious - Alexandria, others - more
minus - London)?
Jimbo, or other WMF members?
Or sj, maybe?

I prefer not to lie, and not to deny. I think is more useful find WHY
and HOW all this could have been happened.
And that's what I'd like to be done, more than talking about "maybe
something in Torino in 2008, but wait - in 2008 there's Australia
so... whatever, bye Turin, welcome Sidney".

Gatto Nero

(I started working on wiki full of idealistic thoughts of
collaboration, correctness, and of working for a bigger aim. I'm
really sick at seeing how much economic interests and politic there is
here. Really sick.)
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

SJ-5
On 9/29/06, Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2006/9/29, Gianluigi Gamba <[hidden email]>:
> > Gatto Nero, I understand your disappointment, but
> >
> > * disappointing 7 teams out of 8 was unavoidable;
> > * the jury decided legitimately taking into account all the available
> > information they had - they have the right and the duty to consider
> > geo-political strategies for better achieving the goals of the Foundation.
> > And I might be wrong, bringing access to the free knowledge where such free
> > knowledge is somehow obstacled is one of them.
> >
> > suspicious innuendos about how the decision has been taken aren't of any
> > help for anyone.
>
> Should we deny that Taipei has been shortlisted with no secure
> sponsorship at all?
> (Just read what their bid said about sponsor at the time of the
> shortlisting decision:
> "The bidding team has contacted several potential sponsors. Some of
> them have shown great interest in sponsoring Wikimania and covering
> the core expenses in total on venue, accommodation, and catering. If
> Taipei is selected as the host city for Wikimania 2007, the detailed
> sponsorship arrangement will be finalized. According to our
> conservative estimation, local sponsorship will be no less than
> NT$1,500,000 (US$45,600+)."
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimania_2007/Taipei&oldid=435116#Local_sponsorship_opportunities
> )
> Why then include Taipei and exclude the other? On which basis?

I don't recall any bid including signed sponsorship contracts; so in every case
sponsorship was in some way "not fully secure".   Sponsorship was also only
one of many factors in the decisions (and conspiracy theories aside,
it never seemed
like the most important one).

> Should we deny that sj said Taipei was chosen 'cause "in the end they
> had the most surplus sponsorship, in fact"?

Out of context.  Taipei was not chosen "because" of sponsorship, at
least that was not the
deciding factor for me, though (see above) that was one of the factors
considered
for every bid.

The above quote (I did not say 'because') was in response to the claim
that Turin had full sponsorship, unlike other bids; when in fact it
was not the only bid with full sponsorship (and in some ways that bid
had less sponsorship than Taipei's; cf. breakfasts).  Again, beyond
noting the bids for which all major costs were covered, the specifics
of sponsorship amount or surplus was not a deciding factor in the
discussion.

> Should we deny that this decision caused a rift and quite a fight
> between the components of the jury?

It's funny, it caused a rift a day and a half after the decision,
after a lot of emotional comments from the community; it did not
during the jury discussion.

-- SJ
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Gatto Nero
2006/9/29, SJ <[hidden email]>:

> I don't recall any bid including signed sponsorship contracts; so in every case
> sponsorship was in some way "not fully secure".   Sponsorship was also only
> one of many factors in the decisions (and conspiracy theories aside,
> it never seemed
> like the most important one).

That's really funny, 'cause noone has been able to bring some
believable reason for this choice. So:
*Taipei has not been choosen cause it was in Asia
*Taipei has not been choosen cause it had some strange sponsorship
Then, why has Taipei been choosen? For the funny weather in summer, rain season?

> > Should we deny that sj said Taipei was chosen 'cause "in the end they
> > had the most surplus sponsorship, in fact"?
>
> Out of context.  Taipei was not chosen "because" of sponsorship, at
> least that was not the
> deciding factor for me, though (see above) that was one of the factors
> considered
> for every bid.
>
> The above quote (I did not say 'because') was in response to the claim
> that Turin had full sponsorship, unlike other bids; when in fact it
> was not the only bid with full sponsorship (and in some ways that bid
> had less sponsorship than Taipei's; cf. breakfasts).  Again, beyond
> noting the bids for which all major costs were covered, the specifics
> of sponsorship amount or surplus was not a deciding factor in the
> discussion.
>

Context:

set 25 02:19:35 metasj the result this year was uncertain even in the
last days; and the discussion was about the quality of each aspect of
the bids
set 25 02:19:54 metasj taipei also managed to get everything paid for,
with institutional support...
set 25 02:20:05 AlisonW so did we
set 25 02:20:11 AlisonW so did Torino
set 25 02:20:12 metasj (in the end they had the most surplus
sponsorship, in fact)



> > Should we deny that this decision caused a rift and quite a fight
> > between the components of the jury?
>
> It's funny, it caused a rift a day and a half after the decision,
> after a lot of emotional comments from the community; it did not
> during the jury discussion.
>
> -- SJ

Excuse me sir, it caused a rift THE NIGHT the decision was made. Or
are you saying that the decision has been took before september 25?

Gatto Nero
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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Birgitte_sb
In reply to this post by Gatto Nero


--- Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:


> Should we deny that sj said Taipei was chosen 'cause
> "in the end they
> had the most surplus sponsorship, in fact"?
>
>

The above makes me think of an uncomfortable question
or two.  

Will any member of the jury be employed by Wikimania
2007?  Will any member of jury be in a position to
decide how sponsorship monies are spent (i.e. drafting
budgets or who receives scholarships)?

Now a positive answer to one of those questions does
change that Taipei was chosen in good faith.  The
people on the jury are some of the most experienced
Wikimania organizers here.  So it would be natural
they would be selected for the jury, and equally
natural that they will be heavily involved in
organizing Wikimania 2007.  However, I would certainly
like to see that future Wikimania juries are selected
with a negative answer to these questions in mind.
Any possible perception of corruption should be
avoided at all costs.


Birgitte SB

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Re: Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Birgitte_sb


--- Birgitte SB <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> --- Gatto Nero <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> > Should we deny that sj said Taipei was chosen
> 'cause
> > "in the end they
> > had the most surplus sponsorship, in fact"?
> >
> >
>
> The above makes me think of an uncomfortable
> question
> or two.  
>
> Will any member of the jury be employed by Wikimania
> 2007?  Will any member of jury be in a position to
> decide how sponsorship monies are spent (i.e.
> drafting
> budgets or who receives scholarships)?
>
> Now a positive answer to one of those questions does
> change that Taipei was chosen in good faith.  
 
Excuse me

Now a positive answer to one of those questions does
*not* change that Taipei was chosen in good faith.

The

> people on the jury are some of the most experienced
> Wikimania organizers here.  So it would be natural
> they would be selected for the jury, and equally
> natural that they will be heavily involved in
> organizing Wikimania 2007.  However, I would
> certainly
> like to see that future Wikimania juries are
> selected
> with a negative answer to these questions in mind.
> Any possible perception of corruption should be
> avoided at all costs.
>
>
> Birgitte SB
>
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