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Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Johan Jönsson-2
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Haytham Abulela ALY

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Sylvain Chiron
Hi,

I think searching the right format to have then automation when you
translate 50 newsletters a year is really worth it.

Please include this!

Regards,

Sylvain Chiron

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

> Hi Johan,
>
> This idea is brilliant.
>
> My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for
> displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the
> Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using
> both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use,
> since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and
> Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon,
> Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just
> the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both
> displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.
>
> Regards,
>
> Haytham Abulela Aly
>
> Freelance Translator
> Creative Translation
> "Creative & Confident"
>
>
> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>
> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be
>> in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory
>> and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?
>>
>> Longer version:
>>
>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar>
>> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but
>> should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation
>> memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any
>> other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having
>> to change the days and months every new week.
>>
>> It looks like this:
>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
>> xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
>> which means that I get this when I translate:
>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>
>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original
>> said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari".
>>
>> Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese,
>> the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j
>> 日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and
>> $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the
>> first time they translate this, for example.
>>
>> All possible options are described here:
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time 
>>
>> Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once,
>> whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the
>> translation in the translation memory next week.
>>
>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially
>> if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.
>>
>> The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was?
>> This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>
>> //Johan Jönsson
>> --
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Translators-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Sylvain Chiron
But ‘defualtformat’ looks a bit wrong (it is already online).

Sylvain

Le 19/01/2017 à 20:17, Sylvain Chiron a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> I think searching the right format to have then automation when you
> translate 50 newsletters a year is really worth it.
>
> Please include this!
>
> Regards,
>
> Sylvain Chiron
>
> Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>> Hi Johan,
>>
>> This idea is brilliant.
>>
>> My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for
>> displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the
>> Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using
>> both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use,
>> since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and
>> Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon,
>> Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just
>> the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both
>> displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Haytham Abulela Aly
>>
>> Freelance Translator
>> Creative Translation
>> "Creative & Confident"
>>
>>
>> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>
>> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be
>>> in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory
>>> and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?
>>>
>>> Longer version:
>>>
>>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar>
>>> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but
>>> should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation
>>> memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any
>>> other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having
>>> to change the days and months every new week.
>>>
>>> It looks like this:
>>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
>>> xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
>>> which means that I get this when I translate:
>>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>
>>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original
>>> said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari".
>>>
>>> Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese,
>>> the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j
>>> 日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and
>>> $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the
>>> first time they translate this, for example.
>>>
>>> All possible options are described here:
>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time 
>>>
>>> Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once,
>>> whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the
>>> translation in the translation memory next week.
>>>
>>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially
>>> if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.
>>>
>>> The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was?
>>> This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.
>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>
>>> //Johan Jönsson
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Translators-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Translators-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>

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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Johan Jönsson-2
In reply to this post by Haytham Abulela ALY
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 6:58 PM, Haytham Aly <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Johan,
>
> This idea is brilliant.
>
> My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying
> Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names.
> Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a
> slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated
> names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while
> Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could
> this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month
> names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only
> transliterated month names would suffice.
>

Hi Haytham,

Whereas I could be mistaken, I don't think there's a good way to
automate both, I'm afraid. At least not that I'm aware of.

//Johan Jönsson
--

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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
In reply to this post by Haytham Abulela ALY

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
--


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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
In reply to this post by Sylvain Chiron

Saluton Sylvain,

Do you mean it should be "defaultformat" (with "au" rather than "ua") or "default_format", or something else?



Le 19/01/2017 à 20:20, Sylvain Chiron a écrit :
But ‘defualtformat’ looks a bit wrong (it is already online).

Sylvain

Le 19/01/2017 à 20:17, Sylvain Chiron a écrit :
Hi,

I think searching the right format to have then automation when you
translate 50 newsletters a year is really worth it.

Please include this!

Regards,

Sylvain Chiron

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for
displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the
Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using
both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use,
since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and
Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon,
Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just
the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both
displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com

On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be
in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory
and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar>
tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but
should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation
memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any
other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having
to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original
said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese,
the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j
日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and
$date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the
first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time 

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once,
whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the
translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially
if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was?
This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04

//Johan Jönsson
--


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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
In reply to this post by Mathieu Stumpf Guntz

So, here is a corresponding task: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824


Le 20/01/2017 à 11:25, mathieu stumpf guntz a écrit :

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
--


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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Haytham Abulela ALY
In reply to this post by Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Sylvain Chiron
In reply to this post by Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
Le 20/01/2017 à 11:29, mathieu stumpf guntz a écrit :
> Do you mean it should be "defaultformat" (with "au" rather than "ua") or
> "default_format", or something else?

I mean the ‘au’.

Regards,
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
In reply to this post by Haytham Abulela ALY

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Pols12
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Philippe Verdy
There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.

However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.


2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Pols12
According to w:fr:WP:TYPO, we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.

2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.

However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.


2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Philippe Verdy
Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just enumerated in order).

It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking dates, but the same could also be said about peole names (first name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you can predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be expanded.

This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text justification made (or microjustifications, including kerning and variable floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.

If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to have overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long dates in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if the day number or year is spelled completely or written with digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.

2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to w:fr:WP:TYPO, we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.

2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.

However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.


2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Saroj Dhakal
Please use the suggested format.

Thanks,
Saroj

On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just enumerated in order).

It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking dates, but the same could also be said about peole names (first name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you can predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be expanded.

This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text justification made (or microjustifications, including kerning and variable floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.

If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to have overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long dates in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if the day number or year is spelled completely or written with digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.

2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to w:fr:WP:TYPO, we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.

2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.

However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.


2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Johan Jönsson-2
In reply to this post by Pols12
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Pols12 <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

Hi!

So, not having an opinion on how the French dates should look, a general reply regarding how to change them if you want to:

If you're happy with how the dates look, you just keep {{#time:$defaultformat|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and $date2 and $date3), but if you want to change something, you just replace $defaultformat in the string. For example, to get the same thing but with a non-breaking space, you use this instead of $defaultformat:
{{#time:j&#160;xg|$date1|$format_language_code}}

Help:

The tricky thing to remember is that you need to use unicode characters if you want to write text or add things like a non-breaking space, because the function will transform the n to the number of the month and the s to seconds past the minute if you write &nbsp;.

//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Vira Motorko
Will Translate extension allow to save message without all variables used?

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Help save natural resources – please think twice before printing this e-mail or any attachments.

2017-01-24 8:44 GMT+02:00 Johan Jönsson <[hidden email]>:
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Pols12 <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

Hi!

So, not having an opinion on how the French dates should look, a general reply regarding how to change them if you want to:

If you're happy with how the dates look, you just keep {{#time:$defaultformat|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and $date2 and $date3), but if you want to change something, you just replace $defaultformat in the string. For example, to get the same thing but with a non-breaking space, you use this instead of $defaultformat:
{{#time:j&#160;xg|$date1|$format_language_code}}

Help:

The tricky thing to remember is that you need to use unicode characters if you want to write text or add things like a non-breaking space, because the function will transform the n to the number of the month and the s to seconds past the minute if you write &nbsp;.

//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz

Yes, it just warn you that you didn't to minimize probability you didn't just forget or misspelled it.


Le 24/01/2017 à 09:32, Vira Motorko a écrit :
Will Translate extension allow to save message without all variables used?

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m: +380667740499 | f: vira.motorko | w: Ата

Are you saving your documents in free formats? ;)
Help save natural resources – please think twice before printing this e-mail or any attachments.

2017-01-24 8:44 GMT+02:00 Johan Jönsson <[hidden email]>:
On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Pols12 <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

Hi!

So, not having an opinion on how the French dates should look, a general reply regarding how to change them if you want to:

If you're happy with how the dates look, you just keep {{#time:$defaultformat|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and $date2 and $date3), but if you want to change something, you just replace $defaultformat in the string. For example, to get the same thing but with a non-breaking space, you use this instead of $defaultformat:
{{#time:j&#160;xg|$date1|$format_language_code}}

Help:

The tricky thing to remember is that you need to use unicode characters if you want to write text or add things like a non-breaking space, because the function will transform the n to the number of the month and the s to seconds past the minute if you write &nbsp;.

//Johan Jönsson
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Re: Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Mathieu Stumpf Guntz
In reply to this post by Saroj Dhakal

It's really the first time ever I hear about this rule. Sure making 3 digits group separated with thin non breaking spaces is a good practice that you might use for the vintage, although to my mind that's a practice whose readability usefulness comes with larger number. That is 2017 is far more common than 2 017, and you might even argue that habit might make the former less disturbing.

Now regarding spaces between words, do anyone have an authoritative source on the subject and what it says on this topic? For example there is the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie nationale but I have no access to it right now.


Le 24/01/2017 à 01:43, Saroj Dhakal a écrit :
Please use the suggested format.

Thanks,
Saroj

On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just enumerated in order).

It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking dates, but the same could also be said about peole names (first name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you can predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be expanded.

This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text justification made (or microjustifications, including kerning and variable floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.

If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to have overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long dates in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if the day number or year is spelled completely or written with digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.

2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to w:fr:WP:TYPO, we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.

2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.

However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.


2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <[hidden email]>:
According to me, it’s a real improvement.

How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
Pols12

2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]>:

Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also apply to day names, or just month names?

Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?

I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the discussion on the phabricator ticket.


Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
Hi Mathieu,
My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over another.
Regards,

On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Saluton Haytham,

If you look at the documentation, non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it seems that Assyrian calendar is not yet in the set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use "aii" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or "arc" (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems that localization is missing for already provided month names.

So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far as I understand, you would like to use:

{{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})

Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with a community feedback in the loop.

Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :

Hi Johan,

This idea is brilliant.

My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed, though only transliterated month names would suffice.

Regards,

Haytham Abulela Aly

Freelance Translator
Creative Translation
"Creative & Confident"


Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?

Longer version:

Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days and months every new week.

It looks like this:
{#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which means that I get this when I translate:
{{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.

For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari". 

Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first time I do a translation I need to change it to {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the first time they translate this, for example.

All possible options are described here:

Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once, whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the translation in the translation memory next week.

Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.

The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was? This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.



//Johan Jönsson
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