TechCom Radar 2018-05-30

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TechCom Radar 2018-05-30

Kate Chapman
Hi All,

Here are the minutes from this week's TechCom meeting:

* TechCom will be announcing a call for nominations to expand the
committee next week

* Discussion and community input on MediaWiki Platform Architecture
Principles Document continues:
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Technical_Committee/MediaWiki_Platform_Architecture_Principles>

* Public IRC Discussion of RFC next week 2018-06-06 in the
#wikimedia-office channel at 2pm PST(22:00 UTC, 23:00 CET): Use
ar_page_id to determine the parent IDs for undeleted revisions
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690>


You can also find our meeting minutes at
<https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Technical_Committee/Minutes>

See also the TechCom RFC board
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/mediawiki-rfcs/>.

--
Kate Chapman
TechCom Facilitator (Contractor)


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Re: TechCom Radar 2018-05-30

Daniel Kinzler-2
Am 31.05.2018 um 18:41 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> * Public IRC Discussion of RFC next week 2018-06-06 in the
> #wikimedia-office channel at 2pm PST(22:00 UTC, 23:00 CET): Use
> ar_page_id to determine the parent IDs for undeleted revisions
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690>

Please note that the scope of the IRC discussion of 2018-06-06 is intended to me
more general than what the RFC proposes.

The main questions of the meeting will be:

   * do we need rev_parent_id?
   * if yes, and what exactly should the semantics of rev_parent_id be?
   * if no, what do we replace it with (if anything)?

I am in the process of preparing a write-up to frame the discussion. I'll post a
link here.

-- daniel

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RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Daniel Kinzler-2
As mentioned in the TechCom radar email last week, there will be a public IRC
discussion on  the future of rev_parent_id on Wednesday, 2018-06-06 in the
#wikimedia-office channel at 2pm PST(22:00 UTC, 23:00 CET).

The RFCs original title was "Use ar_page_id to determine the parent IDs for
undeleted revisions" <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690>. However, the
discussion has drifted quite a bit, and is now touching on questions around the
size differences shown on the history and contributions pages, which is the only
thing that rev_parent_id is used for. Perhaps we should have filed a separate
ticket, but at this point, that would just have meant splitting the
conversation, and creating more confusion...

Anyway, in preparation of the RFC discussion, here are again the main question
that need answering:

* Can we do without rev_parent_id entirely?  Can we live without the size info
on Special:Contributions, or can we query it cheaply enough?

* Do we want to record the original "edit as intended", and if yes, where?

* On a side note, what's the best way to detect a page's first revision, and do
we still need that if we have the page creation log (and recentchanges).

I have tried to summarize the discussion so far, with the available options and
considerations, at <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690#4254713>.

--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Platform Engineer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Leon Ziemba
> ... the size differences shown on the history and contributions pages,
which is the only thing that rev_parent_id is used for

This may be true in MediaWiki but not so much for external tools. I just
wanted to preemptively say this. I'll be joining the IRC discussion to
share more :)

~Leon

On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 2:23 PM Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> As mentioned in the TechCom radar email last week, there will be a public
> IRC
> discussion on  the future of rev_parent_id on Wednesday, 2018-06-06 in the
> #wikimedia-office channel at 2pm PST(22:00 UTC, 23:00 CET).
>
> The RFCs original title was "Use ar_page_id to determine the parent IDs for
> undeleted revisions" <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690>.
> However, the
> discussion has drifted quite a bit, and is now touching on questions
> around the
> size differences shown on the history and contributions pages, which is
> the only
> thing that rev_parent_id is used for. Perhaps we should have filed a
> separate
> ticket, but at this point, that would just have meant splitting the
> conversation, and creating more confusion...
>
> Anyway, in preparation of the RFC discussion, here are again the main
> question
> that need answering:
>
> * Can we do without rev_parent_id entirely?  Can we live without the size
> info
> on Special:Contributions, or can we query it cheaply enough?
>
> * Do we want to record the original "edit as intended", and if yes, where?
>
> * On a side note, what's the best way to detect a page's first revision,
> and do
> we still need that if we have the page creation log (and recentchanges).
>
> I have tried to summarize the discussion so far, with the available
> options and
> considerations, at <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690#4254713>.
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Platform Engineer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

James Hare-5
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Leon Ziemba <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > ... the size differences shown on the history and contributions pages,
> which is the only thing that rev_parent_id is used for
>
> This may be true in MediaWiki but not so much for external tools. I just
> wanted to preemptively say this. I'll be joining the IRC discussion to
> share more :)
>
> ~Leon
>

To add to Leon's use case, I would argue that it may be one use case but
it's a pretty visible one to active contributors who are familiar with the
history page. It may be worth clarifying whether this is a backend change
that would keep the feature intact or if this change would result in a
change to Wikimedia projects' user experience.


>
> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 2:23 PM Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > As mentioned in the TechCom radar email last week, there will be a public
> > IRC
> > discussion on  the future of rev_parent_id on Wednesday, 2018-06-06 in
> the
> > #wikimedia-office channel at 2pm PST(22:00 UTC, 23:00 CET).
> >
> > The RFCs original title was "Use ar_page_id to determine the parent IDs
> for
> > undeleted revisions" <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690>.
> > However, the
> > discussion has drifted quite a bit, and is now touching on questions
> > around the
> > size differences shown on the history and contributions pages, which is
> > the only
> > thing that rev_parent_id is used for. Perhaps we should have filed a
> > separate
> > ticket, but at this point, that would just have meant splitting the
> > conversation, and creating more confusion...
> >
> > Anyway, in preparation of the RFC discussion, here are again the main
> > question
> > that need answering:
> >
> > * Can we do without rev_parent_id entirely?  Can we live without the size
> > info
> > on Special:Contributions, or can we query it cheaply enough?
> >
> > * Do we want to record the original "edit as intended", and if yes,
> where?
> >
> > * On a side note, what's the best way to detect a page's first revision,
> > and do
> > we still need that if we have the page creation log (and recentchanges).
> >
> > I have tried to summarize the discussion so far, with the available
> > options and
> > considerations, at <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193690#4254713>.
> >
> > --
> > Daniel Kinzler
> > Principal Platform Engineer
> >
> > Wikimedia Deutschland
> > Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Daniel Kinzler-2
In reply to this post by Leon Ziemba
Am 04.06.2018 um 20:54 schrieb Leon Ziemba:
>> ... the size differences shown on the history and contributions pages,
> which is the only thing that rev_parent_id is used for
>
> This may be true in MediaWiki but not so much for external tools. I just
> wanted to preemptively say this. I'll be joining the IRC discussion to
> share more :)

Excellent, thank you! It would be particularly interesting to know what
assumptions you make about the semantics of rev_parent_id. E.g. there are three
revisions, A, B, and C, and revision B gets romoved - what should revision C's
parent be?

Similarly, when revision X gets imported and inserted between A and B, what
should revision B's parent be?

--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Platform Engineer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Daniel Kinzler-2
In reply to this post by James Hare-5
Am 04.06.2018 um 20:58 schrieb James Hare:
> To add to Leon's use case, I would argue that it may be one use case but
> it's a pretty visible one to active contributors who are familiar with the
> history page. It may be worth clarifying whether this is a backend change
> that would keep the feature intact or if this change would result in a
> change to Wikimedia projects' user experience.

First of all, the purpose of this discussion is mainly to explore the problem
and the options we have. We don't expect to approve any action just yet. Perhaps
I should have made this clear in my original mail.

The intention is to keep the feature - but since the behavior of the feature is
inconsistent (e.g. the size difference shown does not always correspond to the
linked diff) and changed over time (due to bugs in the undeletion code, for
instance), one important question is what the expected behavior actually is.

--
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Platform Engineer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Daniel Kinzler-2
On Monday, June 4, 2018, Daniel Kinzler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 04.06.2018 um 20:54 schrieb Leon Ziemba:
>>> ... the size differences shown on the history and contributions pages,
>> which is the only thing that rev_parent_id is used for
>>
>> This may be true in MediaWiki but not so much for external tools. I just
>> wanted to preemptively say this. I'll be joining the IRC discussion to
>> share more :)
>
> Excellent, thank you! It would be particularly interesting to know what
> assumptions you make about the semantics of rev_parent_id. E.g. there are
three
> revisions, A, B, and C, and revision B gets romoved - what should
revision C's
> parent be?
>
> Similarly, when revision X gets imported and inserted between A and B,
what

> should revision B's parent be?
>
> --
> Daniel Kinzler
> Principal Platform Engineer
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland
> Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

I think in such a case, revision C's parent should benull or 0. Similarly
for revision X.

I dont view the parent as what revision came first but what revision was
edited to make this revision (i.e. where the current revision was "forked"
off from)
--
Brian
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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Leon Ziemba
> > Excellent, thank you! It would be particularly interesting to know what
> > assumptions you make about the semantics of rev_parent_id. E.g. there
> are three
> > revisions, A, B, and C, and revision B gets romoved - what should
> revision C's
> > parent be?
> >
> > Similarly, when revision X gets imported and inserted between A and B,
> what
> > should revision B's parent be?
>
> I think in such a case, revision C's parent should benull or 0. Similarly
> for revision X.
>
> I dont view the parent as what revision came first but what revision was
> edited to make this revision (i.e. where the current revision was "forked"
> off from)
>

Yep, that was my thinking. I was going to save it for the IRC discussion,
but since I can say this quickly: I use rev_parent_id to find the literal
*previous* revision (revision that was "forked", as Brian says), for the
purposes of immediate revert detection and for the diff size. I also do
this for the subsequent revision, all with a single query (FROM revision
then two JOINs on revision). If I can get this information just as easily
by other means, my use case is satisfied.

Also quick side note, I hope it's obvious that viewing diff sizes on
revision histories and contribution pages is essential. Indeed it's
sometimes wrong, so obviously it'd be great if that could somehow be fixed
:) I'm sure you smart people have some great ideas. Looking forward to the
IRC discussion.

~Leon
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Re: RFC discussion: the future of rev_parent_id

Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 3:22 PM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I dont view the parent as what revision came first but what revision was
> edited to make this revision (i.e. where the current revision was "forked"
> off from)
>

Although that implies that an automatically-resolved edit conflict should
have a "parent" as the revision that was edited rather than the current
revision, again different from the current behavior (and both of the
options Daniel discusses in the task).

It similarly implies that an edit starting with an old revision should
record that old revision as the "parent" instead of the current revision,
again different from the current behavior. And maybe the same for rollbacks
and at least some undos.


--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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