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Edward at Logic Museum
This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the more allegations made here, about me.
 
Edward

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Re: Test message

Thomas Dalton
On 10 January 2012 18:50, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the
> more allegations made here, about me.

I have received your email, so yes, you can still post here. I would
ask that you keep your response brief and to the point, though. I
doubt anyone here wishes to engage in a lengthy debate with you over
this. Keep in mind that you do not have a right to attend Wikimedia UK
events. The trustees are obliged to act in whatever way they feel will
best further our charitable objectives and if they feel that you being
at its events will do more harm to those objectives than good, then
they have no choice but to ban you. I suggest you frame your response
in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
you to attend its events?

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Re: Test message

Richard Symonds-2
I don't think it's productive (or helpful) to have a discussion like this on a public mailing list, and would ask that if people have comments on this, that they be directed to [hidden email]. Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of misbehaviour, in a public forum. 

On 10 January 2012 21:09, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10 January 2012 18:50, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the
> more allegations made here, about me.

I have received your email, so yes, you can still post here. I would
ask that you keep your response brief and to the point, though. I
doubt anyone here wishes to engage in a lengthy debate with you over
this. Keep in mind that you do not have a right to attend Wikimedia UK
events. The trustees are obliged to act in whatever way they feel will
best further our charitable objectives and if they feel that you being
at its events will do more harm to those objectives than good, then
they have no choice but to ban you. I suggest you frame your response
in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
you to attend its events?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Test message

Michael Peel-4
My apologies; I wasn't meaning to contradict Richard here. If this conversation needs to be kept confidential due to privacy concerns, then using the [hidden email] address (emails to which are directed to OTRS rather than solely to individuals) is also a good approach to take. I note that a number of community members also have access to correspondence sent to that address, in addition to WMUK trustees and staff members, so that may well be the best approach to take.

Thanks,
Mike

On 10 Jan 2012, at 21:18, Richard Symonds wrote:

> I don't think it's productive (or helpful) to have a discussion like this on a public mailing list, and would ask that if people have comments on this, that they be directed to [hidden email]. Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of misbehaviour, in a public forum.
>
> On 10 January 2012 21:09, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 10 January 2012 18:50, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the
> > more allegations made here, about me.
>
> I have received your email, so yes, you can still post here. I would
> ask that you keep your response brief and to the point, though. I
> doubt anyone here wishes to engage in a lengthy debate with you over
> this. Keep in mind that you do not have a right to attend Wikimedia UK
> events. The trustees are obliged to act in whatever way they feel will
> best further our charitable objectives and if they feel that you being
> at its events will do more harm to those objectives than good, then
> they have no choice but to ban you. I suggest you frame your response
> in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
> you to attend its events?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


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Re: Test message

Edward at Logic Museum
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
>>I suggest you frame your response
> in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
> you to attend its events?

Again, I am concerned about the allegations of harassment.  I don't
particularly care about whether I am banned from these events or not.

Edward

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Test message


> On 10 January 2012 18:50, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the
>> more allegations made here, about me.
>
> I have received your email, so yes, you can still post here. I would
> ask that you keep your response brief and to the point, though. I
> doubt anyone here wishes to engage in a lengthy debate with you over
> this. Keep in mind that you do not have a right to attend Wikimedia UK
> events. The trustees are obliged to act in whatever way they feel will
> best further our charitable objectives and if they feel that you being
> at its events will do more harm to those objectives than good, then
> they have no choice but to ban you. I suggest you frame your response
> in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
> you to attend its events?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org 


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Re: Test message

Edward at Logic Museum
In reply to this post by Richard Symonds-2
Symonds:
>>Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of misbehaviour, in a public forum. 
Yes, bear in mind that I am a real person, and that your first email message outed me, and accused me of serious misbehaviour ('off wiki harassment", "routinely outing"), in a public forum.  You haven't made clear (in your emails to me) whether you were acting for the Board, whether the Board itself made these serious accusations, or what.
 
Why did you publish this here in the first place?
 
Edward
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Test message

I don't think it's productive (or helpful) to have a discussion like this on a public mailing list, and would ask that if people have comments on this, that they be directed to [hidden email]. Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of misbehaviour, in a public forum. 

On 10 January 2012 21:09, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10 January 2012 18:50, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is a test message to see if I have the right of reply to some of the
> more allegations made here, about me.

I have received your email, so yes, you can still post here. I would
ask that you keep your response brief and to the point, though. I
doubt anyone here wishes to engage in a lengthy debate with you over
this. Keep in mind that you do not have a right to attend Wikimedia UK
events. The trustees are obliged to act in whatever way they feel will
best further our charitable objectives and if they feel that you being
at its events will do more harm to those objectives than good, then
they have no choice but to ban you. I suggest you frame your response
in those terms - why is it in the interests of Wikimedia UK to allow
you to attend its events?

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
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Re: Test message

Thomas Dalton
On 10 January 2012 22:33, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes, bear in mind that I am a real person, and that your first email message
> outed me, and accused me of serious misbehaviour ('off wiki harassment",
> "routinely outing"), in a public forum.  You haven't made clear (in your
> emails to me) whether you were acting for the Board, whether the Board
> itself made these serious accusations, or what.

How did he "out" you? You don't keep your real name secret. Richard
finished him email with "For the Wikimedia UK Board of Trustees" so I
think it is very clear who made the decision.

> Why did you publish this here in the first place?

Given what a strong supporter of transparency you have been, I find
this question surprising.

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Re: Test message

Edward at Logic Museum
>>You don't keep your real name secret.

No, but then I don't expect it to be linked with serious charges such as
'routine outing', 'harassment' and so on.  Just use your brain cells for
once.

>>Richard finished him email with "For the Wikimedia UK Board of Trustees"
>>so I
> think it is very clear who made the decision.

Read my post carefully.  I am not asking 'who made the decision', I am
asking who authorised the wording about 'harrassment' and so forth.

Edward



----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Dalton" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Test message


> On 10 January 2012 22:33, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Yes, bear in mind that I am a real person, and that your first email
>> message
>> outed me, and accused me of serious misbehaviour ('off wiki harassment",
>> "routinely outing"), in a public forum. You haven't made clear (in your
>> emails to me) whether you were acting for the Board, whether the Board
>> itself made these serious accusations, or what.
>
> How did he "out" you? You don't keep your real name secret. Richard
> finished him email with "For the Wikimedia UK Board of Trustees" so I
> think it is very clear who made the decision.
>
>> Why did you publish this here in the first place?
>
> Given what a strong supporter of transparency you have been, I find
> this question surprising.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia UK mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
> WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org
>


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Re: Test message

Thomas Dalton
On 10 January 2012 22:40, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>You don't keep your real name secret.
>
> No, but then I don't expect it to be linked with serious charges such as
> 'routine outing', 'harassment' and so on.  Just use your brain cells for
> once.

Have you heard the phrase "when you're in a hole, stop digging"?

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Re: Test message

James Farrar
In reply to this post by Edward at Logic Museum
On 10 January 2012 22:33, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Symonds:
>>>Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep
>>> discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of
>>> misbehaviour, in a public forum.
> Yes, bear in mind that I am a real person, and that your first email message
> outed me, and accused me of serious misbehaviour ('off wiki harassment",
> "routinely outing"), in a public forum.  You haven't made clear (in your
> emails to me) whether you were acting for the Board, whether the Board
> itself made these serious accusations, or what.
>
> Why did you publish this here in the first place?

It's difficult to see how you can expect to be taken seriously, having
not even the courtesy to refer to Richard by more than an unadorned
surname (the height of rudeness, as I'm sure you are aware), seeming
not to have read the email that explains who Richard was acting for
and apparently failing to understand that the WMUK mailing list is a
proper place for discussion of WMUK issues.

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Re: Test message

Edward at Logic Museum
>>It's difficult to see how you can expect to be taken seriously, having
not even the courtesy to refer to Richard by more than an unadorned
surname (the height of rudeness, as I'm sure you are aware), seeming
not to have read the email that explains who Richard was acting for
and apparently failing to understand that the WMUK mailing list is a
proper place for discussion of WMUK issues.
<<

I have asked the Board to clarify who was responsible for the form of words.
In some posts, and in some emails, Symonds explicitly says he is speaking on
his own behalf. I have just emailed Peel.

The WMUK mailing list is not a proper place for legally objectionable
allegations, surely.

Edward



----- Original Message -----
From: "James Farrar" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediauk-l] Test message


On 10 January 2012 22:33, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Symonds:
>>>Bear in mind that everyone concerned is a real person, so we need to keep
>>> discussions like this private to avoid anyone being outed, or accused of
>>> misbehaviour, in a public forum.
> Yes, bear in mind that I am a real person, and that your first email
> message
> outed me, and accused me of serious misbehaviour ('off wiki harassment",
> "routinely outing"), in a public forum. You haven't made clear (in your
> emails to me) whether you were acting for the Board, whether the Board
> itself made these serious accusations, or what.
>
> Why did you publish this here in the first place?

It's difficult to see how you can expect to be taken seriously, having
not even the courtesy to refer to Richard by more than an unadorned
surname (the height of rudeness, as I'm sure you are aware), seeming
not to have read the email that explains who Richard was acting for
and apparently failing to understand that the WMUK mailing list is a
proper place for discussion of WMUK issues.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia UK mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l
WMUK: http://uk.wikimedia.org 


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Re: Test message

James Farrar
On 10 January 2012 23:06, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>>It's difficult to see how you can expect to be taken seriously, having
> not even the courtesy to refer to Richard by more than an unadorned
> surname (the height of rudeness, as I'm sure you are aware), seeming
> not to have read the email that explains who Richard was acting for
> and apparently failing to understand that the WMUK mailing list is a
> proper place for discussion of WMUK issues.
> <<
>
> I have asked the Board to clarify who was responsible for the form of words.
> In some posts, and in some emails, Symonds explicitly says he is speaking on
> his own behalf. I have just emailed Peel.

I am forced to conclude that your persistent rudeness is intentional.

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Re: Test message

michael west-3
On 10 January 2012 23:07, James Farrar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10 January 2012 23:06, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>It's difficult to see how you can expect to be taken seriously, having
>> not even the courtesy to refer to Richard by more than an unadorned
>> surname (the height of rudeness, as I'm sure you are aware), seeming
>> not to have read the email that explains who Richard was acting for
>> and apparently failing to understand that the WMUK mailing list is a
>> proper place for discussion of WMUK issues.
>> <<
>>
>> I have asked the Board to clarify who was responsible for the form of words.
>> In some posts, and in some emails, Symonds explicitly says he is speaking on
>> his own behalf. I have just emailed Peel.
>
> I am forced to conclude that your persistent rudeness is intentional.
>

has everybody lost sense? Either the foundation has lost all sense of
reasoning to post public alleged allegations or you are happy to feed
trolls. Police if you can find proof, a county court to make a
restraining order or let the guy sue the charity for defamation. What
is going on? are you all crazy?

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Re: Test message

Thomas Dalton
On 10 January 2012 23:58, michael west <[hidden email]> wrote:
> has everybody lost sense? Either the foundation has lost all sense of
> reasoning to post public alleged allegations or you are happy to feed
> trolls. Police if you can find proof, a county court to make a
> restraining order or let the guy sue the charity for defamation. What
> is going on? are you all crazy?

Just to clarify, this decision was taken by Wikimedia UK, the UK
chapter, not the Wikimedia Foundation.

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Re: Test message

Edward at Logic Museum
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
I'm still awaiting clarification from the Board about whether they are
taking collective responsibility for the *wording* of the announcement here
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/2012-January/006977.html 
..

And to clarify again, it's not the fact of a ban I am concerned about. It is
the allegations, using my real name, of real-life 'harassment' of Wikipedia
volunteers.  This implies intimidation, threats of physical violence, and so
on.   I regard this as real-life harassment of myself, and legally
objectionable.  No one has so far replied to any of my mails.

I also contacted the Wikipedia arbitration committee, as they have not yet
overturned the 2009 'ban' from Wikipedia which contains the original
accusation of harassment.

Edward


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Re: Test message

Mark (Markie)-2
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Edward at Logic Museum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm still awaiting clarification from the Board about whether they are
taking collective responsibility for the *wording* of the announcement here
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediauk-l/2012-January/006977.html
..

And to clarify again, it's not the fact of a ban I am concerned about. It is
the allegations, using my real name, of real-life 'harassment' of Wikipedia
volunteers.  This implies intimidation, threats of physical violence, and so
on.   I regard this as real-life harassment of myself, and legally
objectionable.  No one has so far replied to any of my mails.

 
Hi Edward,

You may wish to check the definition of "harassment" (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/stalking_and_harassment/#a02a)  You can see here that the Crown Prosecution Service defines harassment as "causing alarm or distress" as well as the more traditional "putting people in fear of  violence" depending on which law is being applied. As such the use of the term "harassment" in its strictest use does not legally mean an incitement of violence.

Please note the usual: I am not a lawyer, please seek legal advice before taking any actions or inactions based upon this information etc...

Regards,
Mark

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Re: Test message

Thomas Morton
You may wish to check the definition of "harassment" (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/stalking_and_harassment/#a02a)  You can see here that the Crown Prosecution Service defines harassment as "causing alarm or distress" as well as the more traditional "putting people in fear of  violence" depending on which law is being applied. As such the use of the term "harassment" in its strictest use does not legally mean an incitement of violence.

Please note the usual: I am not a lawyer, please seek legal advice before taking any actions or inactions based upon this information etc...

Putting my professional hat on for a moment...

"Alarm and distress" can be interpreted very broadly with respect to the internet. Especially if you can tie it up to privacy laws.

We had one case a few years ago where an individual was disclosing RL names & addresses of people on a social dating website; definitely not the same sort of thing (as there is an obvious risk factor in that context), but they prosecuted him largely for the privacy issues than the actual risk of harm.

With all that said; we should be careful using the term "harassment" too much (especially off-wiki) because, as Edward says, if not accurate or reasonable then it is libellous.

Tom

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