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The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Simon Heimler
Hi there!

Just playing around with Templates and Forms. I've got one Problem:

If I want multiple Instances of a Template stored into the Page itself, I
have to make a Template which contains just the Element I want to repeat.
So I add this to my Form and set it to |multiple.
But now I want to give this a Heading for all repeated Elements. How and
where do I store this?
I could write it in a non-repeating Template thats used before, but this
just feels wrong (The Heading would be in the entirely wrong Template). I
could also make a own Template just for the Heading and add it to the Form
- but this would lead to MANY small Template just for tiny things.

Something that would feel naturally to me would be a Form Template, which
contains then all the Templates that the Form is using. But this would need
to nested templates and therefore to ugly behaviour with Pipes, etc.. so I
guess this is not a good Solution either?

*(Right now I'm writing my Bachelor Thesis on Semantic Knowledge
Management, and I'm using MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle for it. If somebody's
interested: I've got some first Impressions (i guess rather unbiased since
im new to MediaWiki) and Ideas written down, while I'm on this - maybe
someone's interested to chat about that?)*

Greets,
Simon
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Yaron Koren-2
Hi Simon,

Yes, you could put the header at the bottom of the template that goes above
the multiple-instance, though perhaps that is "wrong" to some extent. :)
The other solution is to embed the multiple-instance template in a field of
the main template, using "holds template" and "embed in field". That's the
less-hacky solution.

I'd be interested to hear your first impressions, and I bet other people
would as well; if you're willing to do it, I think ideally you could send
an email to this list with your thoughts so far.

-Yaron


On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> Just playing around with Templates and Forms. I've got one Problem:
>
> If I want multiple Instances of a Template stored into the Page itself, I
> have to make a Template which contains just the Element I want to repeat.
> So I add this to my Form and set it to |multiple.
> But now I want to give this a Heading for all repeated Elements. How and
> where do I store this?
> I could write it in a non-repeating Template thats used before, but this
> just feels wrong (The Heading would be in the entirely wrong Template). I
> could also make a own Template just for the Heading and add it to the Form
> - but this would lead to MANY small Template just for tiny things.
>
> Something that would feel naturally to me would be a Form Template, which
> contains then all the Templates that the Form is using. But this would need
> to nested templates and therefore to ugly behaviour with Pipes, etc.. so I
> guess this is not a good Solution either?
>
> *(Right now I'm writing my Bachelor Thesis on Semantic Knowledge
> Management, and I'm using MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle for it. If somebody's
> interested: I've got some first Impressions (i guess rather unbiased since
> im new to MediaWiki) and Ideas written down, while I'm on this - maybe
> someone's interested to chat about that?)*
>
> Greets,
> Simon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
> 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
> 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
> 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>



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2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Simon Heimler
Hello Yaron,

thanks for the fast Reply!

Ok, I will try the 'holds template' Way. Sounds like the right way to me ;)
Is somewhere an example of this or a longer explanation? Right now I dont
get it from the description on the wiki, but will try out tomorrow. (
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#.27for_template.27_tag
)

Another thing: I'll have maybe some time and work free to improve some
parts, especially regarding Usability and User Interface. I'm skilled in
Interface Programming, but can make PHP work, too. Is there something to be
recommended?

Simon


2013/9/12 Yaron Koren <[hidden email]>

> Hi Simon,
>
> Yes, you could put the header at the bottom of the template that goes
> above the multiple-instance, though perhaps that is "wrong" to some extent.
> :) The other solution is to embed the multiple-instance template in a field
> of the main template, using "holds template" and "embed in field". That's
> the less-hacky solution.
>
> I'd be interested to hear your first impressions, and I bet other people
> would as well; if you're willing to do it, I think ideally you could send
> an email to this list with your thoughts so far.
>
> -Yaron
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Hi there!
>>
>> Just playing around with Templates and Forms. I've got one Problem:
>>
>> If I want multiple Instances of a Template stored into the Page itself, I
>> have to make a Template which contains just the Element I want to repeat.
>> So I add this to my Form and set it to |multiple.
>> But now I want to give this a Heading for all repeated Elements. How and
>> where do I store this?
>> I could write it in a non-repeating Template thats used before, but this
>> just feels wrong (The Heading would be in the entirely wrong Template). I
>> could also make a own Template just for the Heading and add it to the Form
>> - but this would lead to MANY small Template just for tiny things.
>>
>> Something that would feel naturally to me would be a Form Template, which
>> contains then all the Templates that the Form is using. But this would
>> need
>> to nested templates and therefore to ugly behaviour with Pipes, etc.. so I
>> guess this is not a good Solution either?
>>
>> *(Right now I'm writing my Bachelor Thesis on Semantic Knowledge
>>
>> Management, and I'm using MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle for it. If
>> somebody's
>> interested: I've got some first Impressions (i guess rather unbiased since
>> im new to MediaWiki) and Ideas written down, while I'm on this - maybe
>> someone's interested to chat about that?)*
>>
>> Greets,
>> Simon
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
>> 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
>> 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
>> 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>
>
>
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Yaron Koren-2
Hi Simon,

I don't know if there's a public demo of "holds template"/"embed in field"
anywhere, but there should be. Hopefully the instructions for it make
sense... it's not that complex, I think.

As for improving usability and user interface - it's great that you're
interested in helping out. There are various interfaces that could be
improved; I would say there's a consensus that the Special:Ask interface
could be clearer, and actually there was a project to improve it (it was a
2011 Google Summer of Code project), but it didn't get completed. Beyond
that, there are various related extensions with interfaces that could
potentially be improved: Semantic Forms, Semantic Drilldown, Page Schemas,
Semantic Watchlist, etc. But perhaps the first step should be hearing your
opinions about the overall system - maybe that can start some discussion
about specific interface elements.

-Yaron


On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Hello Yaron,
>
> thanks for the fast Reply!
>
> Ok, I will try the 'holds template' Way. Sounds like the right way to me
> ;)
> Is somewhere an example of this or a longer explanation? Right now I dont
> get it from the description on the wiki, but will try out tomorrow. (
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#.27for_template.27_tag
> )
>
> Another thing: I'll have maybe some time and work free to improve some
> parts, especially regarding Usability and User Interface. I'm skilled in
> Interface Programming, but can make PHP work, too. Is there something to be
> recommended?
>
> Simon
>
>
> 2013/9/12 Yaron Koren <[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> Yes, you could put the header at the bottom of the template that goes
>> above the multiple-instance, though perhaps that is "wrong" to some extent.
>> :) The other solution is to embed the multiple-instance template in a field
>> of the main template, using "holds template" and "embed in field". That's
>> the less-hacky solution.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear your first impressions, and I bet other people
>> would as well; if you're willing to do it, I think ideally you could send
>> an email to this list with your thoughts so far.
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there!
>>>
>>> Just playing around with Templates and Forms. I've got one Problem:
>>>
>>> If I want multiple Instances of a Template stored into the Page itself, I
>>> have to make a Template which contains just the Element I want to repeat.
>>> So I add this to my Form and set it to |multiple.
>>> But now I want to give this a Heading for all repeated Elements. How and
>>> where do I store this?
>>> I could write it in a non-repeating Template thats used before, but this
>>> just feels wrong (The Heading would be in the entirely wrong Template). I
>>> could also make a own Template just for the Heading and add it to the
>>> Form
>>> - but this would lead to MANY small Template just for tiny things.
>>>
>>> Something that would feel naturally to me would be a Form Template, which
>>> contains then all the Templates that the Form is using. But this would
>>> need
>>> to nested templates and therefore to ugly behaviour with Pipes, etc.. so
>>> I
>>> guess this is not a good Solution either?
>>>
>>> *(Right now I'm writing my Bachelor Thesis on Semantic Knowledge
>>>
>>> Management, and I'm using MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle for it. If
>>> somebody's
>>> interested: I've got some first Impressions (i guess rather unbiased
>>> since
>>> im new to MediaWiki) and Ideas written down, while I'm on this - maybe
>>> someone's interested to chat about that?)*
>>>
>>> Greets,
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
>>> 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
>>> 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
>>> 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
>>>
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
>>
>
>


--
WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Simon Heimler
Ok, I think I've understood those two options! Yes, they do make sense. ;)

But I think about going with the extra Templates way, so in the Case I
really just need the Heading - I'll make an own Template for it. Its
important that the structure can be understood by others, using the
embedding would make that harder I guess. But not sure about that.

I've sent my feedback now to the List ;)



2013/9/12 Yaron Koren <[hidden email]>

> Hi Simon,
>
> I don't know if there's a public demo of "holds template"/"embed in field"
> anywhere, but there should be. Hopefully the instructions for it make
> sense... it's not that complex, I think.
>
> As for improving usability and user interface - it's great that you're
> interested in helping out. There are various interfaces that could be
> improved; I would say there's a consensus that the Special:Ask interface
> could be clearer, and actually there was a project to improve it (it was a
> 2011 Google Summer of Code project), but it didn't get completed. Beyond
> that, there are various related extensions with interfaces that could
> potentially be improved: Semantic Forms, Semantic Drilldown, Page Schemas,
> Semantic Watchlist, etc. But perhaps the first step should be hearing your
> opinions about the overall system - maybe that can start some discussion
> about specific interface elements.
>
> -Yaron
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Hello Yaron,
>>
>> thanks for the fast Reply!
>>
>> Ok, I will try the 'holds template' Way. Sounds like the right way to me
>> ;)
>> Is somewhere an example of this or a longer explanation? Right now I dont
>> get it from the description on the wiki, but will try out tomorrow. (
>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Semantic_Forms/Defining_forms#.27for_template.27_tag
>> )
>>
>> Another thing: I'll have maybe some time and work free to improve some
>> parts, especially regarding Usability and User Interface. I'm skilled in
>> Interface Programming, but can make PHP work, too. Is there something to be
>> recommended?
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> 2013/9/12 Yaron Koren <[hidden email]>
>>
>>> Hi Simon,
>>>
>>> Yes, you could put the header at the bottom of the template that goes
>>> above the multiple-instance, though perhaps that is "wrong" to some extent.
>>> :) The other solution is to embed the multiple-instance template in a field
>>> of the main template, using "holds template" and "embed in field". That's
>>> the less-hacky solution.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear your first impressions, and I bet other people
>>> would as well; if you're willing to do it, I think ideally you could send
>>> an email to this list with your thoughts so far.
>>>
>>> -Yaron
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi there!
>>>>
>>>> Just playing around with Templates and Forms. I've got one Problem:
>>>>
>>>> If I want multiple Instances of a Template stored into the Page itself,
>>>> I
>>>> have to make a Template which contains just the Element I want to
>>>> repeat.
>>>> So I add this to my Form and set it to |multiple.
>>>> But now I want to give this a Heading for all repeated Elements. How and
>>>> where do I store this?
>>>> I could write it in a non-repeating Template thats used before, but this
>>>> just feels wrong (The Heading would be in the entirely wrong Template).
>>>> I
>>>> could also make a own Template just for the Heading and add it to the
>>>> Form
>>>> - but this would lead to MANY small Template just for tiny things.
>>>>
>>>> Something that would feel naturally to me would be a Form Template,
>>>> which
>>>> contains then all the Templates that the Form is using. But this would
>>>> need
>>>> to nested templates and therefore to ugly behaviour with Pipes, etc..
>>>> so I
>>>> guess this is not a good Solution either?
>>>>
>>>> *(Right now I'm writing my Bachelor Thesis on Semantic Knowledge
>>>>
>>>> Management, and I'm using MediaWiki & Semantic Bundle for it. If
>>>> somebody's
>>>> interested: I've got some first Impressions (i guess rather unbiased
>>>> since
>>>> im new to MediaWiki) and Ideas written down, while I'm on this - maybe
>>>> someone's interested to chat about that?)*
>>>>
>>>> Greets,
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
>>>> 1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
>>>> 2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
>>>> 3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
>>>>
>>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> WikiWorks · MediaWiki Consulting · http://wikiworks.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
1. Consolidate legacy IT systems to a single system of record for IT
2. Standardize and globalize service processes across IT
3. Implement zero-touch automation to replace manual, redundant tasks
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=51271111&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Anna Maxted
Hi Simon / Yaron

The "holds template"/"embed in field"  option is one that I haven't been able to master yet  - Simon did you find any public examples of this?

I've got many multiple instance templates and it would be great not to have the heading / title displayed multiple times :-)

Really appreciate any assistance you guys can give on this - or anyone else can give.

Thanks Anna
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Simon Heimler
Hello Anna,

I've decided not to use this feature and instead took the "long but simple
road":
(Not found an example, sorry. But after thinking about it for a while i've
under stood how it works, its not that complicated ;) )

For every Heading I've created an extra Template which holds just the
static Content I want it to have.

The Form then includes this Template but doesn't use/add any fields to it.
Looks like this:

FORM:
{{{for template|Problem Überschrift}}}{{{end template}}}
{{{for template|Problem|multiple|label=Probleme und Lösungen}}}
'''Problem:''' {{{field|Problem|input type=textarea}}}
'''Lösung:''' {{{field|Lösung|input type=textarea}}}
{{{end template}}}

TEMPLATE:
<includeonly>==Bekannte Probleme & Lösungen==
Siehe auch Hardware: {{#show: {{PAGENAME}} | ?Hardwaremodell| format=list}}
und Software: {{#show: {{PAGENAME}} | ?Software| format=list}}</includeonly>

In that case I've added two queries after the heading, but before the
multiple fields are renderd.

Pros: Its very flexible and straightforward to understand
Cons: You'll need more templates. And if you do this after you've created
Content with the Form you have to edit with form and save to make Semantic
Forms update the new Structure with the added Headings.

Greets,
Simon




2013/9/25 annaisakiwi <[hidden email]>

> Hi Simon / Yaron
>
> The "holds template"/"embed in field"  option is one that I haven't been
> able to master yet  - Simon did you find any public examples of this?
>
> I've got many multiple instance templates and it would be great not to have
> the heading / title displayed multiple times :-)
>
> Really appreciate any assistance you guys can give on this - or anyone else
> can give.
>
> Thanks Anna
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://wikimedia.7.x6.nabble.com/The-Right-Way-to-use-Forms-Templates-tp5013188p5013842.html
> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> October Webinars: Code for Performance
> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most
> from
> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Anna Maxted
thanks Simon - I just followed your form coding and managed to get this working!

However - the template it is calling is a zero or multiple instance template, so I only want the header template to show if one or more instances of the template below had been entered.  - I think this is where the 'embed in field' option comes into play?  
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Re: The Right Way to use Forms / Templates

Stephan Gambke-2
In reply to this post by Simon Heimler
What I usually do is to have one template (or several in the case of
multiple templates), with the function of silently setting the
properties. Name it "Problem-Set".
I have then exactly one more template to render the page's content.
Name it "Problem-Show".

This way I am decoupling the design of the form from the design of the
final page. No need to change the form just because I want to change
the page. No need to re-edit each and every page to change its
structure. Instead just change the Show template.

To communicate between the Show and the Set template I use the
Variables extension, i.e. the value of every field that I actually
want to show, is not only assigned to a property, but also to a
variable.

I don't know, if this is a performance drag or not. Maybe somebody
with more insight can comment on this. But for my rather small wikis
it works great.

On 25 September 2013 09:22, Simon Heimler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Anna,
>
> I've decided not to use this feature and instead took the "long but simple
> road":
> (Not found an example, sorry. But after thinking about it for a while i've
> under stood how it works, its not that complicated ;) )
>
> For every Heading I've created an extra Template which holds just the
> static Content I want it to have.
>
> The Form then includes this Template but doesn't use/add any fields to it.
> Looks like this:
>
> FORM:
> {{{for template|Problem Überschrift}}}{{{end template}}}
> {{{for template|Problem|multiple|label=Probleme und Lösungen}}}
> '''Problem:''' {{{field|Problem|input type=textarea}}}
> '''Lösung:''' {{{field|Lösung|input type=textarea}}}
> {{{end template}}}
>
> TEMPLATE:
> <includeonly>==Bekannte Probleme & Lösungen==
> Siehe auch Hardware: {{#show: {{PAGENAME}} | ?Hardwaremodell| format=list}}
> und Software: {{#show: {{PAGENAME}} | ?Software| format=list}}</includeonly>
>
> In that case I've added two queries after the heading, but before the
> multiple fields are renderd.
>
> Pros: Its very flexible and straightforward to understand
> Cons: You'll need more templates. And if you do this after you've created
> Content with the Form you have to edit with form and save to make Semantic
> Forms update the new Structure with the added Headings.
>
> Greets,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> 2013/9/25 annaisakiwi <[hidden email]>
>
>> Hi Simon / Yaron
>>
>> The "holds template"/"embed in field"  option is one that I haven't been
>> able to master yet  - Simon did you find any public examples of this?
>>
>> I've got many multiple instance templates and it would be great not to have
>> the heading / title displayed multiple times :-)
>>
>> Really appreciate any assistance you guys can give on this - or anyone else
>> can give.
>>
>> Thanks Anna
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://wikimedia.7.x6.nabble.com/The-Right-Way-to-use-Forms-Templates-tp5013188p5013842.html
>> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> October Webinars: Code for Performance
>> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
>> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most
>> from
>> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Semediawiki-user mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> October Webinars: Code for Performance
> Free Intel webinars can help you accelerate application performance.
> Explore tips for MPI, OpenMP, advanced profiling, and more. Get the most from
> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=60133471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user

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October Webinars: Code for Performance
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