The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

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The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
You have probably read the announcement of the Wikimedia Developer Summit
2016 registration and call for participation.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016

I just want to stress that this year we are putting a special emphasis on
inviting not only the developers of MediaWiki core, extensions, and APIs,
but also the "other" developers using this platform to create gadgets,
bots, templates, tools, apps, and third party products relying on Wikimedia
APIs.

We want to increase their participation bringing their own proposals and
joining others' as stakeholders, and we want to meet with them during the
event in San Francisco. We have a modest sponsorship travel budget for
those registering before OCTOBER 2nd (deadline for presentation of new
proposals).

Reaching out to all these developers is not simple, as they are quite
spread. Your help forwarding our invitation to the appropriate communities,
mailing lists, Talk pages, etc, is very welcome.

--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Petr Bena
Is there going to be a hangout stream for the presentations so that
people who can't attend (trip is just too expensive) can see or
participate at them?

On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You have probably read the announcement of the Wikimedia Developer Summit
> 2016 registration and call for participation.
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016
>
> I just want to stress that this year we are putting a special emphasis on
> inviting not only the developers of MediaWiki core, extensions, and APIs,
> but also the "other" developers using this platform to create gadgets,
> bots, templates, tools, apps, and third party products relying on Wikimedia
> APIs.
>
> We want to increase their participation bringing their own proposals and
> joining others' as stakeholders, and we want to meet with them during the
> event in San Francisco. We have a modest sponsorship travel budget for
> those registering before OCTOBER 2nd (deadline for presentation of new
> proposals).
>
> Reaching out to all these developers is not simple, as they are quite
> spread. Your help forwarding our invitation to the appropriate communities,
> mailing lists, Talk pages, etc, is very welcome.
>
> --
> Quim Gil
> Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Petr Bena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is there going to be a hangout stream for the presentations so that
> people who can't attend (trip is just too expensive) can see or
> participate at them?
>


We are discussing video in the Summit at
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111782

In principle, the owners of each session are the first ones to be
responsible of video and other ways to connect to remote participants. If
they think they will need infrastructure beyond their laptops, then we will
need to talk.

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
>
> We want to increase their participation bringing their own proposals and
> joining others' as stakeholders,

I suppose I'm kind of confused by the scope. We want template creators
to propose RFCs for architecture changes in MediaWiki?

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-bawolff

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:19 PM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > We want to increase their participation bringing their own proposals and
> > joining others' as stakeholders,
>
> I suppose I'm kind of confused by the scope. We want template creators
> to propose RFCs for architecture changes in MediaWiki?


It's the Wikimedia Developer Summit, and therefore the audience comprises
all the developers busy with Wikimedia -- developers of templates included.
The Wikimedia Developer Summit encourages proposals about updating our
architecture, infrastructure and services to better support users and
developers. [1] There is no reason to restrict the scope to MediaWiki core
and close neighbors, our platform is wider than that.

It is unlikely that template developers will initiate a RfC for changes in
MediaWiki core, but what about discussing the roadmap and priorities for
Scribunto, agreeing on a framework to handle template localization, or a
common repository for templates... I'm not an expert in this area, and
these are possible topics that just came to mind. Template developers will
know what needs to be discussed and agreed to serve better their users.

[1]
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Call_for_participation

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Dan Garry
In reply to this post by Brian Wolff
On 15 September 2015 at 06:19, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I suppose I'm kind of confused by the scope. We want template creators
> to propose RFCs for architecture changes in MediaWiki?
>

In some senses, template creators are developers just like the rest of us.
They're writing code that affects our sites. They're just doing it in a
different place from most others; on-wiki, rather than in Gerrit. That
divide is, essentially, artificial.

However, you're right that one would not expect such people to propose
architecture changes in MediaWiki; that's not really their domain. However,
to me that does not seem necessary in order to attend the developer summit.
Their perspectives as people involved in the development of MediaWiki and
Wikimedia projects would be welcome.

I think what should be done here is to define exactly what it is we're
hoping to get from the participation of template creators, and what we hope
they get from attending the summit. Perhaps several sessions around
templates should be organised.

Thanks,
Dan

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Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Tyler Romeo
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> However, you're right that one would not expect such people to propose
> architecture changes in MediaWiki; that's not really their domain. However,
> to me that does not seem necessary in order to attend the developer summit.
> Their perspectives as people involved in the development of MediaWiki and
> Wikimedia projects would be welcome.
>

I think this is the key point. Remember that this is the "developer summit"
and
not an "architecture summit", and as such anything MediaWiki-related is up
for
grabs. And if the topic of templates comes up, specifically what we need to
fix
in templates or what new features we should focus on next, who better to
have
there for that than the users of templates themselves.

*-- *
*Tyler Romeo*
Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016
Major in Computer Science
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
In reply to this post by Dan Garry
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Dan Garry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think what should be done here is to define exactly what it is we're
> hoping to get from the participation of template creators, and what we hope
> they get from attending the summit. Perhaps several sessions around
> templates should be organised.
>

Just to be clear, by starting this thread I didn't mean that we *must* have
topics at the Summit for template, bot, gadget, tool, apps, and third party
developers. The intend is to improve our outreach to these groups to assure
that they have a chance to propose topics relevant for them and to
participate in the Summit with the "usual suspects".

If there is a great response from i.e. template developers and we up having
several sessions, great. If the related developers have been invited to the
Summit but nobody seems to have a topic or care enough to push for it, that
is fine as well.

By the way, the same can be said about any area of the MediaWiki
architecture and the extensions expanding our platform. If apparent hot
topics popular in wikitech-l and your favorite Phabricator tasks don't
reach a critical mass of structured interest, we as organizers of the
Summit will not push for them either. The topics discussed at the Wikimedia
Developer Summit will be one by one the topics pushed by the Wikimedia
developers.

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/wikimedia-developer-summit-2016/ is
still empty. Who will be the first one landing a proposal there?  :)

--
Quim Gil
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http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Brian Wolff
In reply to this post by Tyler Romeo
>
> I think this is the key point. Remember that this is the "developer summit"
> and
> not an "architecture summit", and as such anything MediaWiki-related is up
> for
> grabs. And if the topic of templates comes up, specifically what we need to
> fix
> in templates or what new features we should focus on next, who better to
> have
> there for that than the users of templates themselves.

I was basing my comment partially on the mw.org page, which states
that the purpose of the meeting was to "push the evolution of the
MediaWiki architecture and the Wikimedia Engineering goals for 2016."
This kind of made it sound (at least to me) much more like
"architecture summit" then "anything MediaWiki-related"


Just to be clear, I think its great that people like template editors
come to technical events. I was just concerned that the material would
be mostly irrelevant to them if it was all about RfCs, which I appear
to be mistaken about.

Although, I will say its still kind of unclear what is expected that
these types of developers will be doing at the summit. Officially,
presentations are supposed to be "on organized discussions that start
online and aim to reach to agreements during the event". Its been a
while since I was a regular "template editor" or "gadget developer",
but coming to agreement at an in person event isn't something that
strikes me as being the wiki-way of doing things, and people who
primarily develop on wiki-pages probably aren't going to resolve on
wiki disagreements in such a forum (OTOH, my experience is a while
ago, and only relavent to one wiki, so who knows).

--
bawolff

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Brian Wolff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Although, I will say its still kind of unclear what is expected that
> these types of developers will be doing at the summit. Officially,
>

The content of the Summit is derived from the proposals submitted discussed
well before the Summit. If a developer had topics to discuss before the
Summit, they will have topics to discuss during the Summit. However, if a
developer didn't have any topic to discuss before the Summit then indeed,
there is a likely chance that such developer will have an unclear role
during the event.

At least when it comes to the developers requesting travel sponsorship
(most volunteers not based in the San Francisco Bay Area), we are requiring
them to point out to proposals they are submitting or where they are
heavily involved. So you see, I think we have a system that works, open to
anyone but in practice unlikely to propitiate i.e. template editors lost at
the Summit.



> presentations are supposed to be "on organized discussions that start
> online and aim to reach to agreements during the event". Its been a
> while since I was a regular "template editor" or "gadget developer",
> but coming to agreement at an in person event isn't something that
> strikes me as being the wiki-way of doing things, and people who
> primarily develop on wiki-pages probably aren't going to resolve on
> wiki disagreements in such a forum
>

If you are thinking about fixing a template in enwiki or copying a gadget
from pt.wiki and translating it to German, then sure. If you look at
platform / roadmap questions like common repository for templates (
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T52329) or i18n framework for gadgets (
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T110633)  then I don't see any difference
with other developer topics being proposed for the Summit.

Maybe a problem here is a simplistic view of template and gadget
developers? Both areas have many content editors and junior developers
doing their best at a very basic level. They also have experienced
developers trying to solve complex problems that require the involvement of
the developers of the frameworks supporting gadgets and templates. Same
with bots, tools, apps, and the use of our APIs.

--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Isarra Yos
On 16/09/15 06:11, Quim Gil wrote:

> The content of the Summit is derived from the proposals submitted discussed
> well before the Summit. If a developer had topics to discuss before the
> Summit, they will have topics to discuss during the Summit. However, if a
> developer didn't have any topic to discuss before the Summit then indeed,
> there is a likely chance that such developer will have an unclear role
> during the event.
>
> At least when it comes to the developers requesting travel sponsorship
> (most volunteers not based in the San Francisco Bay Area), we are requiring
> them to point out to proposals they are submitting or where they are
> heavily involved. So you see, I think we have a system that works, open to
> anyone but in practice unlikely to propitiate i.e. template editors lost at
> the Summit.

Here's a question. For volunteers or third-party folks less close to
core - suppose we do want to come talk about whatever pertains to us.
How do we bring these things up? How do we propose discussions when
they're not our projects (upstream) and we don't even necessarily know
whose projects they are (I've certainly lost complete track of what WMF
teams are which, and whoever is actually doing/maintaining the stuff can
still apparently be other folks entirely)? Do we just put up a proposal
'talk about blah' and hope someone who actually knows about blah shows
up? If I want to discuss the future of MF, do I just put up a thing 'the
future of MF' and hope it attracts the relevant attention needed to
actually go somewhere?

Also, something I find particularly confusing is that we need to be
heavily involved in the proposals in order to even be considered for
sponsorship when in a lot of cases volunteers/third party folks may not
even in much position to bring them up in the first place even when
we're definitely impacted. And yet we're also the ones who are most
likely to need sponsorship, being less likely to be already working out
of the bay area, and much less likely to be involved in the general team
discussions that happen throughout the year. (And seriously, what's with
the timing? So close after new year's, people are going to be on holiday
and plane prices are horrible; for me it'd bring the price down by over
half if it were even just a week later, and others may be more extreme.)

-I

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Here's a question. For volunteers or third-party folks less close to core
> - suppose we do want to come talk about whatever pertains to us. How do we
> bring these things up? How do we propose discussions when they're not our
> projects (upstream) and we don't even necessarily know whose projects they
> are (I've certainly lost complete track of what WMF teams are which, and
> whoever is actually doing/maintaining the stuff can still apparently be
> other folks entirely)? Do we just put up a proposal 'talk about blah' and
> hope someone who actually knows about blah shows up? If I want to discuss
> the future of MF, do I just put up a thing 'the future of MF' and hope it
> attracts the relevant attention needed to actually go somewhere?
>

In the context of the Summit, "talk about blah" becomes a useful session
proposal when the problem of blah is defined, the goals of the session are
defined, and the people and projects related with blah are invited to
participate.

If you want to discuss the future of MobileFrontend, it is useful to define
what problems MobileFrontend has today, and what do you expect to solve
between now and the day of this session at the Summit. #MobileFrontend has
a project in Phabricator, and depending on the problems you might want to
add more projects/tags. If that is not enough to raise attention (it
should), then you have this list and/or mobile-l.

See
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Call_for_participation
for the fields we expect in all Summit proposals.


Also, something I find particularly confusing is that we need to be heavily
> involved in the proposals in order to even be considered for sponsorship
> when in a lot of cases volunteers/third party folks may not even in much
> position to bring them up in the first place even when we're definitely
> impacted. And yet we're also the ones who are most likely to need
> sponsorship, being less likely to be already working out of the bay area,
> and much less likely to be involved in the general team discussions that
> happen throughout the year.


https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Travel_sponsorship
says "Candidates for travel sponsorship must be active contributors in
ongoing Summit proposals". If a candidate is not active right now in the
specific task, but they can proof their involvement in that topic in other
ways, that is fine as well. We just want to see a clear connection between
the people we sponsor and the activities being planned. It is a sensible
requirement.



> (And seriously, what's with the timing? So close after new year's, people
> are going to be on holiday and plane prices are horrible; for me it'd bring
> the price down by over half if it were even just a week later, and others
> may be more extreme.)


These dates were not our first option, but the availability of venues in
San Francisco for the Summit and WMF AllHands during those weeks didn't
gave us many alternatives. Also, the Wikimedia Hackathon is very close next
year (end of March). On the other hand, the proximity / overlap with
holidays might make it easier for some (i.e. students) to travel?

--
Quim Gil
Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Isarra Yos
On 28/09/15 11:05, Quim Gil wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Here's a question. For volunteers or third-party folks less close to core
>> - suppose we do want to come talk about whatever pertains to us. How do we
>> bring these things up? How do we propose discussions when they're not our
>> projects (upstream) and we don't even necessarily know whose projects they
>> are (I've certainly lost complete track of what WMF teams are which, and
>> whoever is actually doing/maintaining the stuff can still apparently be
>> other folks entirely)? Do we just put up a proposal 'talk about blah' and
>> hope someone who actually knows about blah shows up? If I want to discuss
>> the future of MF, do I just put up a thing 'the future of MF' and hope it
>> attracts the relevant attention needed to actually go somewhere?
>>
> In the context of the Summit, "talk about blah" becomes a useful session
> proposal when the problem of blah is defined, the goals of the session are
> defined, and the people and projects related with blah are invited to
> participate.
>
> If you want to discuss the future of MobileFrontend, it is useful to define
> what problems MobileFrontend has today, and what do you expect to solve
> between now and the day of this session at the Summit. #MobileFrontend has
> a project in Phabricator, and depending on the problems you might want to
> add more projects/tags. If that is not enough to raise attention (it
> should), then you have this list and/or mobile-l.

Okay, thanks. That does help clarify things a bit.

> See
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Call_for_participation
> for the fields we expect in all Summit proposals.
>
>
> Also, something I find particularly confusing is that we need to be heavily
>> involved in the proposals in order to even be considered for sponsorship
>> when in a lot of cases volunteers/third party folks may not even in much
>> position to bring them up in the first place even when we're definitely
>> impacted. And yet we're also the ones who are most likely to need
>> sponsorship, being less likely to be already working out of the bay area,
>> and much less likely to be involved in the general team discussions that
>> happen throughout the year.
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_Summit_2016#Travel_sponsorship
> says "Candidates for travel sponsorship must be active contributors in
> ongoing Summit proposals". If a candidate is not active right now in the
> specific task, but they can proof their involvement in that topic in other
> ways, that is fine as well. We just want to see a clear connection between
> the people we sponsor and the activities being planned. It is a sensible
> requirement.

In the example of template editors, gadget and tool developers, etc used
earlier in this thread, how would that apply? Folks just do enough
templates etc elsewhere and poke a related proposal saying 'yup
relevant' so interest is known on that end, and then just list their
involvements on the application?

>> (And seriously, what's with the timing? So close after new year's, people
>> are going to be on holiday and plane prices are horrible; for me it'd bring
>> the price down by over half if it were even just a week later, and others
>> may be more extreme.)
>
> These dates were not our first option, but the availability of venues in
> San Francisco for the Summit and WMF AllHands during those weeks didn't
> gave us many alternatives. Also, the Wikimedia Hackathon is very close next
> year (end of March). On the other hand, the proximity / overlap with
> holidays might make it easier for some (i.e. students) to travel?

Students probably aren't the best example, as it starts the same time as
classes some places, which means they don't even have the option. (Later
in the term would allow them to find folks to cover for them, talk to
professors ahead of time, etc, but missing the beginning, especially if
they have TA meetings, is a very bad idea for most.)



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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the example of template editors, gadget and tool developers, etc used
> earlier in this thread, how would that apply? Folks just do enough
> templates etc elsewhere and poke a related proposal saying 'yup relevant'
> so interest is known on that end, and then just list their involvements on
> the application?


It would apply exactly in the same way than to the rest of developers.
Getting travel sponsorship to the Summit is not based on "what you do" but
on "what is your participation in the Summit". Someone requesting travel
sponsorship for the Summit must be able to explain their participation in
the discussions leading to the Summit.

--
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Engineering Community Manager @ Wikimedia Foundation
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Neil Patel Quinn
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 4:05 AM, Quim Gil <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 27, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> (And seriously, what's with the timing? So close after new year's, people
>> are going to be on holiday and plane prices are horrible; for me it'd
>> bring
>> the price down by over half if it were even just a week later, and others
>> may be more extreme.)
>>
>
> These dates were not our first option, but the availability of venues in
> San Francisco for the Summit and WMF AllHands during those weeks didn't
> gave us many alternatives. Also, the Wikimedia Hackathon is very close next
> year (end of March). On the other hand, the proximity / overlap with
> holidays might make it easier for some (i.e. students) to travel?
>

For the record, I also find the dates inconvenient, since I'll have to end
my holidays with my family earlier than I would have otherwise. It's not a
huge problem for me, but it's definitely something to bear in mind.

--
Neil P. Quinn <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Neil_P._Quinn-WMF>,
product analyst
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Isarra Yos
In reply to this post by Quim Gil-2
On 28/09/15 16:16, Quim Gil wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> In the example of template editors, gadget and tool developers, etc used
>> earlier in this thread, how would that apply? Folks just do enough
>> templates etc elsewhere and poke a related proposal saying 'yup relevant'
>> so interest is known on that end, and then just list their involvements on
>> the application?
>
> It would apply exactly in the same way than to the rest of developers.
> Getting travel sponsorship to the Summit is not based on "what you do" but
> on "what is your participation in the Summit". Someone requesting travel
> sponsorship for the Summit must be able to explain their participation in
> the discussions leading to the Summit.

So why are they explicitly included for the call for participation?
Either they are already involved in the core discussions and would see
the call for participation regardless, or... they won't be? Am I missing
something, here?

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Re: The "other" developers at the Wikimedia Developer Summit

Quim Gil-2
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Isarra Yos <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> So why are they explicitly included for the call for participation?


Because they can propose sessions as well...

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