Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

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Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
How to read this post?
----------------------
* For those without time to read lengthy technical emails,
   read the TL;DR section.
* For those who don't care about all the details but want to
   help with this project, you can read sections 1 and 2 about Tidy,
   and then skip to section 7.
* For those who like all their details, read the post in its entirety,
   and follow the links.

Please ask follow up questions on wiki *on the FAQ’s talk page* [0]. If you
find a bug, please report it *on Phabricator or on the page mentioned
above*.

TL;DR
-----
The Parsing team wants to replace Tidy with a RemexHTML-based solution
on the
Wikimedia cluster by June 2018. This will require editors to fix pages and
templates to address wikitext patterns that behave differently with
RemexHTML.  Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy
replacement FAQ [1].

1. What is Tidy?
----------------
Tidy [2] is a library currently used by MediaWiki to fix some HTML errors
found in wiki pages.

Badly formed markup is common on wiki pages when editors use HTML tags in
templates and on the page itself. (Ex: unclosed HTML tags, such as a <small>
without a </small>, are common). In some cases, MediaWiki can generate
erroneous HTML by itself. If we didn't fix these before sending it to
browsers, some would display things in a broken way to readers.

But Tidy also does other "cleanup" on its own that is not required for
correctness. Ex: it removes empty elements and adds whitespace between HTML
tags, which can sometimes change rendering.

2. Why replace it?
------------------
Since Tidy is based on HTML4 semantics and the Web has moved to HTML5, it
also makes some incorrect changes to HTML to 'fix' things that used to not
work; for example, Tidy will unexpectedly move a bullet list out of a table
caption even though that's allowed. HTML4 Tidy is no longer maintained or
packaged. There have also been a number of bug reports filed against Tidy
[3]. Since Parsoid is based on HTML5 semantics, there are differences in
rendering between Parsoid's rendering of a page and current read view that
is based on Tidy.

3. Project status
-----------------
Given all these considerations, the Parsing team started work to replace
Tidy
[4] around mid-2015. Tim Starling started this work and after a survey of
existing options, decided to write a wrapper over a Java-based HTML5 parser.
At the time we started the project, we thought we could probably have Tidy
replaced by mid-2016. Alas!

4. What is replacing Tidy?
--------------------------
Tidy will be replaced by a RemexHTML-based solution that uses the
RemexHTML[5] library along with some Tidy-compatibility shims to ensure
better parity with the current rendering. RemexHTML is a PHP library
that Tim
wrote with C.Scott’s input that implements the HTML5 parsing spec.

5. Testing and followup
-----------------------
We knew that some pages will be affected and need fixing due to this change.
In order to more precisely identify what that would be, we wanted to do some
thorough testing. So, we built some new tools [6][7] and overhauled and
upgraded other test infrastructure [8][9] to let us evaluate the impacts of
replacing Tidy (among other such things in the future) which can be a
subject
of a post all on its own.

You can find the details of our testing on the wiki [1][10], but we found
that a large number of pages had rendering differences. We analyzed the
results and categorized the source of differences. Based on that, to
ease the
process of replacement, we added a bunch of compatibility shims to mimic
what
Tidy does. I am skipping the details in this post. Even after that, newer
testing showed that this nevertheless still leaves us with a few patterns
that need fixing that we cannot / don't want to work around automatically.

6. Tools to assist editors: Linter & ParserMigration
----------------------------------------------------
In October 2016, at the parsing team offsite, Kunal ([[User:Legoktm (WMF)]])
dusted off the stalled wikitext linting project [11] and (with the help from
a bunch of people on the Parsoid, db/security/code review areas) built the
Linter extension that surfaces wikitext errors that Parsoid knows about to
let editors fix them.

Earlier this year, we decided to use Linter in service of Tidy replacement.
Based on our earlier testing results, we have added a set of high-priority
linter categories that identifies specific wikitext markup patterns on wiki
pages that need to be fixed [12].

Separately, Tim built the ParserMigration extension to let editors evaluate
their fixes to pages [13]. You can enable this in your editing
preferences or
replace '&action=edit' in your url bar with '&action=parsermigration-edit'.

7. What editors have to do
--------------------------
The part that you have all been waiting for!

Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy
replacement FAQ
[1]. We have added simplified instructions, so that even community members
who do not consider themselves "techies" can still learn about ways to fix
pages.  We'll keep that section up to date based on feedback and questions.
But since it is a wiki, please also edit and tweak as required to make the
text useful for yourselves! This is a first call for fixes and it is about
the problems defined as "high priority". We'll issue other calls in the
future for any other necessary Tidy fixups.

Caveats:

* As noted on that page, the linter categories don't cover all the possible
   sources of rendering differences. For example, there is still T157418
[14]
   left to address. For those who have an opinion about this, please
chime in
   on that task. We are still evaluating the best solution for this without
   adding more cruft to wikitext behavior or kicking the cleanup can down
   the road.

* As the issues in the identified linter categories are fixed, we might be
   better able to isolate other issues that need addressing.

8. So, when will Tidy actually be replaced?
-------------------------------------------
We really would like to get Tidy removed from the cluster latest by June
2018
(or sooner if possible), and your assistance and prompt attention to these
markup issues would be very helpful. We will do this in a phased manner on
different wikis rather than all at once on all wikis.

We really want to do this as smoothly as possible without disrupting the
work
of editors or affecting the rendering of the large corpus of pages on the
various wikis. As you might have gathered from the text above, we have built
and leveraged a wide variety of tools to assist with this.

9. Monitoring progress
----------------------
In order to monitor progress, we plan to do a weekly (or some such periodic
frequency) test run that compares the rendering of pages with Tidy and with
RemexHTML on a large sample of pages (in the 50K range) from a large subset
of Wikimedia wikis (~50 or so).  This will give us a pulse of how fixups are
going, and when we might be able to flip the switch on different wikis.

Subramanya (Subbu) Sastry
Parsing Team.

References
----------
0. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ
1.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ#What_will_editors_need_to_do.3F
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Tidy
3. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/tidy/
4. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89331
5. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-libs-RemexHtml
6. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120345
7. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-uprightdiff
8. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-visualdiff
9. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-services-parsoid-testreduce
10. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy
11. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T48705
12.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Goal:_Replacing_Tidy
13.
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Verifying_fixes_for_these_lint_categories 

14. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157418


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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Pine W
Thanks for the information.

I understand that moving from HTML 4 to HTML 5 is probably a good idea.

However, I am concerned about this statement: "This will require editors to
fix
pages and templates to address wikitext patterns that behave differently
with
RemexHTML".

As you probably know, the supply of content contributors' time is far too
low to
meet the demands of keeping up with everything that ideally would be done
on the content projects.

I am thinking that instead of asking content contributors to spend lots of
hours
(do we know how many? Hundreds? Thousands?) fixing all of these issues,
it would make more sense to develop bots to address them.

Here are a few questions:
1. How many fixes do you think will be needed, for the highest priority
fixes
as well as all fixes?

2. How many hours of volunteer time do you think that these fixes will
require,
for the highest priority fixes as well as all fixes?

3. How feasible would it be to build bots to make 90% of high priority
fixes and
90% of all fixes?

I'm not trying to obstruct technical progress, but I am generally not a fan
of
WMF adding to volunteers' workloads. If the number of changes involved are
small and the number of hours to make them is small, that is less of a
concern
than if we are talking about thousands of changes and hundreds or thousands
of volunteer hours.

Thanks,

Pine


On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:02 AM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How to read this post?
> ----------------------
> * For those without time to read lengthy technical emails,
>   read the TL;DR section.
> * For those who don't care about all the details but want to
>   help with this project, you can read sections 1 and 2 about Tidy,
>   and then skip to section 7.
> * For those who like all their details, read the post in its entirety,
>   and follow the links.
>
> Please ask follow up questions on wiki *on the FAQ’s talk page* [0]. If you
> find a bug, please report it *on Phabricator or on the page mentioned
> above*.
>
> TL;DR
> -----
> The Parsing team wants to replace Tidy with a RemexHTML-based solution on
> the
> Wikimedia cluster by June 2018. This will require editors to fix pages and
> templates to address wikitext patterns that behave differently with
> RemexHTML.  Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy
> replacement FAQ [1].
>
> 1. What is Tidy?
> ----------------
> Tidy [2] is a library currently used by MediaWiki to fix some HTML errors
> found in wiki pages.
>
> Badly formed markup is common on wiki pages when editors use HTML tags in
> templates and on the page itself. (Ex: unclosed HTML tags, such as a
> <small>
> without a </small>, are common). In some cases, MediaWiki can generate
> erroneous HTML by itself. If we didn't fix these before sending it to
> browsers, some would display things in a broken way to readers.
>
> But Tidy also does other "cleanup" on its own that is not required for
> correctness. Ex: it removes empty elements and adds whitespace between HTML
> tags, which can sometimes change rendering.
>
> 2. Why replace it?
> ------------------
> Since Tidy is based on HTML4 semantics and the Web has moved to HTML5, it
> also makes some incorrect changes to HTML to 'fix' things that used to not
> work; for example, Tidy will unexpectedly move a bullet list out of a table
> caption even though that's allowed. HTML4 Tidy is no longer maintained or
> packaged. There have also been a number of bug reports filed against Tidy
> [3]. Since Parsoid is based on HTML5 semantics, there are differences in
> rendering between Parsoid's rendering of a page and current read view that
> is based on Tidy.
>
> 3. Project status
> -----------------
> Given all these considerations, the Parsing team started work to replace
> Tidy
> [4] around mid-2015. Tim Starling started this work and after a survey of
> existing options, decided to write a wrapper over a Java-based HTML5
> parser.
> At the time we started the project, we thought we could probably have Tidy
> replaced by mid-2016. Alas!
>
> 4. What is replacing Tidy?
> --------------------------
> Tidy will be replaced by a RemexHTML-based solution that uses the
> RemexHTML[5] library along with some Tidy-compatibility shims to ensure
> better parity with the current rendering. RemexHTML is a PHP library that
> Tim
> wrote with C.Scott’s input that implements the HTML5 parsing spec.
>
> 5. Testing and followup
> -----------------------
> We knew that some pages will be affected and need fixing due to this
> change.
> In order to more precisely identify what that would be, we wanted to do
> some
> thorough testing. So, we built some new tools [6][7] and overhauled and
> upgraded other test infrastructure [8][9] to let us evaluate the impacts of
> replacing Tidy (among other such things in the future) which can be a
> subject
> of a post all on its own.
>
> You can find the details of our testing on the wiki [1][10], but we found
> that a large number of pages had rendering differences. We analyzed the
> results and categorized the source of differences. Based on that, to ease
> the
> process of replacement, we added a bunch of compatibility shims to mimic
> what
> Tidy does. I am skipping the details in this post. Even after that, newer
> testing showed that this nevertheless still leaves us with a few patterns
> that need fixing that we cannot / don't want to work around automatically.
>
> 6. Tools to assist editors: Linter & ParserMigration
> ----------------------------------------------------
> In October 2016, at the parsing team offsite, Kunal ([[User:Legoktm
> (WMF)]])
> dusted off the stalled wikitext linting project [11] and (with the help
> from
> a bunch of people on the Parsoid, db/security/code review areas) built the
> Linter extension that surfaces wikitext errors that Parsoid knows about to
> let editors fix them.
>
> Earlier this year, we decided to use Linter in service of Tidy replacement.
> Based on our earlier testing results, we have added a set of high-priority
> linter categories that identifies specific wikitext markup patterns on wiki
> pages that need to be fixed [12].
>
> Separately, Tim built the ParserMigration extension to let editors evaluate
> their fixes to pages [13]. You can enable this in your editing preferences
> or
> replace '&action=edit' in your url bar with '&action=parsermigration-edit'
> .
>
> 7. What editors have to do
> --------------------------
> The part that you have all been waiting for!
>
> Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy replacement
> FAQ
> [1]. We have added simplified instructions, so that even community members
> who do not consider themselves "techies" can still learn about ways to fix
> pages.  We'll keep that section up to date based on feedback and questions.
> But since it is a wiki, please also edit and tweak as required to make the
> text useful for yourselves! This is a first call for fixes and it is about
> the problems defined as "high priority". We'll issue other calls in the
> future for any other necessary Tidy fixups.
>
> Caveats:
>
> * As noted on that page, the linter categories don't cover all the possible
>   sources of rendering differences. For example, there is still T157418
> [14]
>   left to address. For those who have an opinion about this, please chime
> in
>   on that task. We are still evaluating the best solution for this without
>   adding more cruft to wikitext behavior or kicking the cleanup can down
>   the road.
>
> * As the issues in the identified linter categories are fixed, we might be
>   better able to isolate other issues that need addressing.
>
> 8. So, when will Tidy actually be replaced?
> -------------------------------------------
> We really would like to get Tidy removed from the cluster latest by June
> 2018
> (or sooner if possible), and your assistance and prompt attention to these
> markup issues would be very helpful. We will do this in a phased manner on
> different wikis rather than all at once on all wikis.
>
> We really want to do this as smoothly as possible without disrupting the
> work
> of editors or affecting the rendering of the large corpus of pages on the
> various wikis. As you might have gathered from the text above, we have
> built
> and leveraged a wide variety of tools to assist with this.
>
> 9. Monitoring progress
> ----------------------
> In order to monitor progress, we plan to do a weekly (or some such periodic
> frequency) test run that compares the rendering of pages with Tidy and with
> RemexHTML on a large sample of pages (in the 50K range) from a large subset
> of Wikimedia wikis (~50 or so).  This will give us a pulse of how fixups
> are
> going, and when we might be able to flip the switch on different wikis.
>
> Subramanya (Subbu) Sastry
> Parsing Team.
>
> References
> ----------
> 0. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ
> 1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ#
> What_will_editors_need_to_do.3F
> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Tidy
> 3. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/tidy/
> 4. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89331
> 5. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-libs-RemexHtml
> 6. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120345
> 7. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-uprightdiff
> 8. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-visualdiff
> 9. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-services-parsoid-testreduce
> 10. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy
> 11. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T48705
> 12. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Goal:_
> Replacing_Tidy
> 13. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Verifyi
> ng_fixes_for_these_lint_categories
> 14. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157418
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
On 07/06/2017 09:59 AM, Pine W wrote:

> Thanks for the information.
>
> I understand that moving from HTML 4 to HTML 5 is probably a good idea.

It is a good and necessary step. We want MediaWiki (and wikipedia)
output to keep up with web standards.

> However, I am concerned about this statement: "This will require editors to
> fix pages and templates to address wikitext patterns that behave differently
> with RemexHTML".

Understandably. Let me try to address your questions below.

But, before that, I want to point you back to my email where I mentioned
that before we arrived at the current proposal, we did a bunch of work
to minimize work for editors.
(1) we added Tidy compatibility shims where we could automatically
preserve Tidy behavior (however much we might have liked to pull those
bandaids off)
(2) we built a bunch of tools and infrastructure to precisely identify
what pages and what specific pieces of markup on those pages need fixing
(3) build a tool to let editors compare their fixes before/after so they
can be sure that they are doing the right fixes and the fixes do the
right thing.

I am re-emphasizing this to indicate that we arrived at this proposal
after sufficient prior work to respect editors' time and efforts and to
support them in what we are requesting them to do. We also re-aligned
timelines to reflect the complexity of the task that we uncovered.

> As you probably know, the supply of content contributors' time is far too
> low to meet the demands of keeping up with everything that ideally would be done
> on the content projects.

Do note that we started this process last year as somewhat of a trial
balloon and we found that editors on wikis were very willing and helpful
with the process. See https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T134423. More
recently, earlier this year, we made some fixes to the preprocessor to
fix some edge cases in language variant handling. Once again, this
required fixes to markup on pages and editors on a bunch of wikis were
more than willing and quite helpful in making these changes. See
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid/Language_conversion/Preprocessor_fixups/20170320.
We are very happy with this collaboration and hope we can continue with
this.

So, while I understand your concern, I am optimistic that we can work on
this collaboratively and make the fixes necessary to address technical
debt that has accumulated over the years in our wikis (and hence the
MediaWiki codebase) while enabling the upgrade of our output to modern
web standards.

> I am thinking that instead of asking content contributors to spend lots of
> hours (do we know how many? Hundreds? Thousands?) fixing all of these issues,
> it would make more sense to develop bots to address them.

I cannot quantify this number (about number of hours). But, with some
effort, we could perhaps come with rough back of the envelope numbers.

> Here are a few questions:
> 1. How many fixes do you think will be needed, for the highest priority
> fixes as well as all fixes?

But, on the large wikipedias, thousands of fixup instances (not pages)
are present ([1], [2], [3]) in the high priority categories (which are
the only ones required for replacing Tidy). In reality, fixing a few
templates will bring down these numbers greatly. For example, for one of
the linter categories (workaround for a paragraph wrapping bug), fixing
the nowrap / nowrap-begin template will likely address most problematic
instances found on specific wikis.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors
[2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors
[3] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors

> 2. How many hours of volunteer time do you think that these fixes will
> require, for the highest priority fixes as well as all fixes?

I do not know offhand, but I expect each (non-template) fix to take no
more than a couple of minutes. So, let us go with that and do some rough
back of the envelope numbers. Assuming we have say 120,000 fixes total
required across all wikis, 50% of them coming from non-templates, we
have 60,000*2 minutes = 2000 person hours. Templates are going to take
more time but they are likely to far fewer of them. Say, 1000 * 15
minutes = 250 hours?

Take that 2-minute calculation for what it is worth, but I think the
collective effort we are asking is not entirely unreasonable over a
period of many months.

> 3. How feasible would it be to build bots to make 90% of high priority
> fixes and 90% of all fixes?

Since the start of the Linter project (when we started off with the GSoC
prototype in summer of 2014, and once again when Kunal picked it up in
2016), we have been in conversation with Nico V (frwiki and who
maintains WPCleaner) and with Marios Magioladitis and Bryan White
(Checkwiki) to integrate the output with their projects / tools. On
Nico's request, we have added API endpoints to Linter, Parsoid, and
RESTBase so that the tool can programmatically fetch linter issues, and
let editors / bots fix them appropriately.

But, I cannot answer right now how feasible it is to build bots to do
what you are asking about. I welcome other insights and perspectives
from others.

> I'm not trying to obstruct technical progress, but I am generally not a fan
> of WMF adding to volunteers' workloads. If the number of changes involved are
> small and the number of hours to make them is small, that is less of a
> concern than if we are talking about thousands of changes and hundreds or thousands
> of volunteer hours.

I hope my response here allays some, if not all, your concerns.

Subbu.


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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

James Forrester-4
In reply to this post by Pine W
On Thu, 6 Jul 2017 at 08:01 Pine W <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I understand that moving from HTML 4 to HTML 5 is probably a good idea.
>
> However, I am concerned about this statement: "This will require editors
> to fix pages and templates to address wikitext patterns that behave
> differently with RemexHTML".
>
> As you probably know, the supply of content contributors' time is far too
> low to meet the demands of keeping up with everything that ideally would
> be done on the content projects.
>

The interpretation of wikitext changes from time to time, and have done
ever since we started inventing it. New features get added, old features
get removed, and existing ones get altered. Consequently, lines of wikitext
that previously did one thing will then do another, which may or may not be
desired.

When these kinds of change happen, there's normally a brief notice in
Tech/News with a few weeks' warning, and often a few community members do a
quick scan for issues. Sometimes the effects of the change can be fixed
with a bot on some wikis, which is hampered by the lack of a cluster-wide
bot policy; the one called the "global bot policy" on Meta doesn't allow
technical fixes like this, and even if it did, it doesn't apply to all
Wikimedia wikis. Some changes aren't automatically fixable, however; they
instead require a human editor, ideally from that community, to judge what
effect was intended, and how to correct it, rather than a simple
substitution.

This set of changes is no different, except that we're being particularly
cautious in alerting communities to those changes, taking our time to make
sure this goes well, and providing a suite of tools to identify and fix
these occurrences (which will be useful for future changes).

[Snip]


> Here are a few questions:
> 1. How many fixes do you think will be needed, for the highest priority
> fixes as well as all fixes?
>

In the document linked from the e-mail to which you replying, it stated
that communities will need to fix the three "High" priority tasks on
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors and the equivalent for
each wiki.


> 2. How many hours of volunteer time do you think that these fixes will
> require,
> for the highest priority fixes as well as all fixes?
>

It will vary by wiki, especially regarding the point below. For MW.org it
took maybe a few hours, spread over a half dozen individuals.


> 3. How feasible would it be to build bots to make 90% of high priority
> fixes and
> 90% of all fixes?
>

That's a question for each community. In this case, the majority of complex
fixes will need to be made to templates, rather than directly in-text, and
I'm sure that semi-automated fixes will be appropriate for some
communities, but others will feel that they need to be made manually.

J.
--

James D. Forrester
Lead Product Manager, Editing
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.
jforrester at wikimedia.org
<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l> |
@jdforrester
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry
Hi,

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> 3. How feasible would it be to build bots to make 90% of high priority
>> fixes and 90% of all fixes?
>>
>
> Since the start of the Linter project (when we started off with the GSoC
> prototype in summer of 2014, and once again when Kunal picked it up in
> 2016), we have been in conversation with Nico V (frwiki and who maintains
> WPCleaner) and with Marios Magioladitis and Bryan White (Checkwiki) to
> integrate the output with their projects / tools. On Nico's request, we
> have added API endpoints to Linter, Parsoid, and RESTBase so that the tool
> can programmatically fetch linter issues, and let editors / bots fix them
> appropriately.
>

 I'm happy to announce that I have just released WPCleaner[1] version 1.43
which brings a better integration which the Linter extension.
It's a first step, but I hope it can already help in fixing errors reported
by Linter.

The features related to the Linter extension are the following:

   - On the main WPCleaner window, there's a "Linter categories" button
   which gives the list of categories that Linter is detecting. Clicking on
   one of the categories returns the list of pages detected by Linter for this
   category. From the list of pages, you can go to the full analysis window
   for the pages that you want to fix.
   - On the Full Analysis window, the second button with a globe and a
   broom (Subbu, would you have a recommended icon for Linter related stuff ?)
   allows to retrieve the list of errors still detected by Linter on the
   current text: for each error, there's a magnifying glass that brings you to
   the location of the error in the text. You can then fix errors and check if
   Linter still finds something in your current version.
   - On the Check Wiki window, there's a similar button

Subbu, I have a question about the result returned by the API to transform
wikitext to lint : in the "dsr" fields, what is the meaning of the 4th
value? (the first one is the beginning of the error, the second one is the
end of the error, the third one is the length of the error...)

Nico


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WPCleaner
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
On 07/06/2017 05:09 PM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:

>> Since the start of the Linter project (when we started off with the GSoC
>> prototype in summer of 2014, and once again when Kunal picked it up in
>> 2016), we have been in conversation with Nico V (frwiki and who maintains
>> WPCleaner) and with Marios Magioladitis and Bryan White (Checkwiki) to
>> integrate the output with their projects / tools. On Nico's request, we
>> have added API endpoints to Linter, Parsoid, and RESTBase so that the tool
>> can programmatically fetch linter issues, and let editors / bots fix them
>> appropriately.
>>
>   I'm happy to announce that I have just released WPCleaner[1] version 1.43
> which brings a better integration which the Linter extension.
> It's a first step, but I hope it can already help in fixing errors reported
> by Linter.

Good to hear! Thanks for your work on this.

>     - On the Full Analysis window, the second button with a globe and a
>     broom (Subbu, would you have a recommended icon for Linter related stuff ?)

I will have to get back to you on this. I'll have to get some help from
someone who can design / recommend something appropriate here.
> Subbu, I have a question about the result returned by the API to transform
> wikitext to lint : in the "dsr" fields, what is the meaning of the 4th
> value? (the first one is the beginning of the error, the second one is the
> end of the error, the third one is the length of the error...)

It is [ start-offset, end-offset, start-tag-width, end-tag-width ].

Note that in some cases, the 3rd and/or 4th values might be null.

So, for
-> "x\n\n<div>foo</div>" input wikitext, DSR generated on the div tag
will be [3,17,5,6].
-> "x\n\n* foo" input wikitext, DSR generated on the li tag will be
[3,8,1,0].

Subbu.

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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Chad
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry
On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:02 AM Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> 6. Tools to assist editors: Linter & ParserMigration
> ----------------------------------------------------
> In October 2016, at the parsing team offsite, Kunal ([[User:Legoktm
> (WMF)]])
> dusted off the stalled wikitext linting project [11] and (with the help
> from
> a bunch of people on the Parsoid, db/security/code review areas) built the
> Linter extension that surfaces wikitext errors that Parsoid knows about to
> let editors fix them.
>
> Earlier this year, we decided to use Linter in service of Tidy replacement.
> Based on our earlier testing results, we have added a set of high-priority
> linter categories that identifies specific wikitext markup patterns on wiki
> pages that need to be fixed [12].
>
>
Linter is certainly awesome and kudos to Kunal for getting that done and
pushed out. [[Special:LintErrors]] is super useful, I'm wondering if there's
a dashboard somewhere that summarizes this across all wikis? If so, I
missed it. If not, it should be pretty easy to wire something up to grab
info
from api.php on all wikis.

I think it'd help for coordinating cross-wiki efforts (bots, tools) as well
as
seeing which wikis are "done" and could be early candidates for migration.

-Chad
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
On 07/07/2017 04:05 PM, Chad wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 5:02 AM Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 6. Tools to assist editors: Linter & ParserMigration
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> In October 2016, at the parsing team offsite, Kunal ([[User:Legoktm
>> (WMF)]])
>> dusted off the stalled wikitext linting project [11] and (with the help
>> from
>> a bunch of people on the Parsoid, db/security/code review areas) built the
>> Linter extension that surfaces wikitext errors that Parsoid knows about to
>> let editors fix them.
>>
>> Earlier this year, we decided to use Linter in service of Tidy replacement.
>> Based on our earlier testing results, we have added a set of high-priority
>> linter categories that identifies specific wikitext markup patterns on wiki
>> pages that need to be fixed [12].
>>
>>
> Linter is certainly awesome and kudos to Kunal for getting that done and
> pushed out. [[Special:LintErrors]] is super useful, I'm wondering if there's
> a dashboard somewhere that summarizes this across all wikis? If so, I
> missed it. If not, it should be pretty easy to wire something up to grab
> info from api.php on all wikis.
>
> I think it'd help for coordinating cross-wiki efforts (bots, tools) as well
> as seeing which wikis are "done" and could be early candidates for migration.

Kunal did an early pass on
https://tools.wmflabs.org/wikitext-deprecation/ but it needs to be
picked up again and worked on. Help welcome. :-)

Subbu.

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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry

>>     - On the Full Analysis window, the second button with a globe and a
>>     broom (Subbu, would you have a recommended icon for Linter
>> related stuff ?)
>
> I will have to get back to you on this. I'll have to get some help
> from someone who can design / recommend something appropriate here.

I added a logo to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Linter

Subbu.

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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Pine W
Thanks very much for the detailed comments, Subbu. And thanks to the folks
who are working on tools to help automate the necessary changes. It sounds
like there's cooperative effort and careful planning that hopefully will
make the Tidy to RemexHTML process a smooth one.

Pine
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry
On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 12:54 AM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>     - On the Full Analysis window, the second button with a globe and a
>>>     broom (Subbu, would you have a recommended icon for Linter related
>>> stuff ?)
>>>
>>
>> I will have to get back to you on this. I'll have to get some help from
>> someone who can design / recommend something appropriate here.
>>
>
> I added a logo to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Linter
>
>
Thanks, I've included it in WPCleaner :-)

Nico
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
In reply to this post by Pine W
Thanks Pine!

One other related comment that perhaps I should have made earlier and
that is relevant based on your broader question around efforts of
editors, bots, where to spend time fixing things.

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Why_and_what_to_fix 
tries to clarify how we plan to leverage Linter going forward. This has
guidance around what goals are served by what fixes, and also has some
language around priorities based on what goals are worth pursuing. This
thread is about goal #1 (and indirectly, goal #2) in that list.

Subbu.


On 07/07/2017 07:53 PM, Pine W wrote:

> Thanks very much for the detailed comments, Subbu. And thanks to the folks
> who are working on tools to help automate the necessary changes. It sounds
> like there's cooperative effort and careful planning that hopefully will
> make the Tidy to RemexHTML process a smooth one.
>
> Pine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry
Hi Subbu !

I have barely started using WPCleaner to fix some errors reported by
Linter, and I know I still have work to do on WPCleaner to make it easier
for users.
But I have a few questions / suggestions regarding Linter for the moment:

   - Is is possible to retrieve also the localized names of the Linter
   categories and priorities: for example, on frwiki, you can see on the
   Linter page [1] that the high priority is translated into "Priorité haute"
   and that self-closed-tag has a user friendly name "Balises auto-fermantes".
   I don't see the localized names in the informations sent by the API for
   siteinfo.
   - Where is it possible to change the description displayed in each page
   dedicated to a category ? For example, the page for self-closed-ags [2] is
   very short. It would be nice to be able to add a description of what the
   error is, what problems it can cause and what are the solutions to fix it
   (or to be able to link to a page explaining all that).
   - In the page dedicated to a category, there's a column telling if the
   problem is due to one template (and which one) or by several templates, but
   I don't get this information in the REST API for Linter. Is it possible to
   have it in the API result or should I deduce it myself where the offset
   given by the API matches a call to a template?


[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:LintErrors
[2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sp%C3%A9cial:LintErrors/self-closed-tag



On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How to read this post?
> ----------------------
> * For those without time to read lengthy technical emails,
>   read the TL;DR section.
> * For those who don't care about all the details but want to
>   help with this project, you can read sections 1 and 2 about Tidy,
>   and then skip to section 7.
> * For those who like all their details, read the post in its entirety,
>   and follow the links.
>
> Please ask follow up questions on wiki *on the FAQ’s talk page* [0]. If you
> find a bug, please report it *on Phabricator or on the page mentioned
> above*.
>
> TL;DR
> -----
> The Parsing team wants to replace Tidy with a RemexHTML-based solution on
> the
> Wikimedia cluster by June 2018. This will require editors to fix pages and
> templates to address wikitext patterns that behave differently with
> RemexHTML.  Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy
> replacement FAQ [1].
>
> 1. What is Tidy?
> ----------------
> Tidy [2] is a library currently used by MediaWiki to fix some HTML errors
> found in wiki pages.
>
> Badly formed markup is common on wiki pages when editors use HTML tags in
> templates and on the page itself. (Ex: unclosed HTML tags, such as a
> <small>
> without a </small>, are common). In some cases, MediaWiki can generate
> erroneous HTML by itself. If we didn't fix these before sending it to
> browsers, some would display things in a broken way to readers.
>
> But Tidy also does other "cleanup" on its own that is not required for
> correctness. Ex: it removes empty elements and adds whitespace between HTML
> tags, which can sometimes change rendering.
>
> 2. Why replace it?
> ------------------
> Since Tidy is based on HTML4 semantics and the Web has moved to HTML5, it
> also makes some incorrect changes to HTML to 'fix' things that used to not
> work; for example, Tidy will unexpectedly move a bullet list out of a table
> caption even though that's allowed. HTML4 Tidy is no longer maintained or
> packaged. There have also been a number of bug reports filed against Tidy
> [3]. Since Parsoid is based on HTML5 semantics, there are differences in
> rendering between Parsoid's rendering of a page and current read view that
> is based on Tidy.
>
> 3. Project status
> -----------------
> Given all these considerations, the Parsing team started work to replace
> Tidy
> [4] around mid-2015. Tim Starling started this work and after a survey of
> existing options, decided to write a wrapper over a Java-based HTML5
> parser.
> At the time we started the project, we thought we could probably have Tidy
> replaced by mid-2016. Alas!
>
> 4. What is replacing Tidy?
> --------------------------
> Tidy will be replaced by a RemexHTML-based solution that uses the
> RemexHTML[5] library along with some Tidy-compatibility shims to ensure
> better parity with the current rendering. RemexHTML is a PHP library that
> Tim
> wrote with C.Scott’s input that implements the HTML5 parsing spec.
>
> 5. Testing and followup
> -----------------------
> We knew that some pages will be affected and need fixing due to this
> change.
> In order to more precisely identify what that would be, we wanted to do
> some
> thorough testing. So, we built some new tools [6][7] and overhauled and
> upgraded other test infrastructure [8][9] to let us evaluate the impacts of
> replacing Tidy (among other such things in the future) which can be a
> subject
> of a post all on its own.
>
> You can find the details of our testing on the wiki [1][10], but we found
> that a large number of pages had rendering differences. We analyzed the
> results and categorized the source of differences. Based on that, to ease
> the
> process of replacement, we added a bunch of compatibility shims to mimic
> what
> Tidy does. I am skipping the details in this post. Even after that, newer
> testing showed that this nevertheless still leaves us with a few patterns
> that need fixing that we cannot / don't want to work around automatically.
>
> 6. Tools to assist editors: Linter & ParserMigration
> ----------------------------------------------------
> In October 2016, at the parsing team offsite, Kunal ([[User:Legoktm
> (WMF)]])
> dusted off the stalled wikitext linting project [11] and (with the help
> from
> a bunch of people on the Parsoid, db/security/code review areas) built the
> Linter extension that surfaces wikitext errors that Parsoid knows about to
> let editors fix them.
>
> Earlier this year, we decided to use Linter in service of Tidy replacement.
> Based on our earlier testing results, we have added a set of high-priority
> linter categories that identifies specific wikitext markup patterns on wiki
> pages that need to be fixed [12].
>
> Separately, Tim built the ParserMigration extension to let editors evaluate
> their fixes to pages [13]. You can enable this in your editing preferences
> or
> replace '&action=edit' in your url bar with '&action=parsermigration-edit'
> .
>
> 7. What editors have to do
> --------------------------
> The part that you have all been waiting for!
>
> Please see 'What editors will need to do' section on the Tidy replacement
> FAQ
> [1]. We have added simplified instructions, so that even community members
> who do not consider themselves "techies" can still learn about ways to fix
> pages.  We'll keep that section up to date based on feedback and questions.
> But since it is a wiki, please also edit and tweak as required to make the
> text useful for yourselves! This is a first call for fixes and it is about
> the problems defined as "high priority". We'll issue other calls in the
> future for any other necessary Tidy fixups.
>
> Caveats:
>
> * As noted on that page, the linter categories don't cover all the possible
>   sources of rendering differences. For example, there is still T157418
> [14]
>   left to address. For those who have an opinion about this, please chime
> in
>   on that task. We are still evaluating the best solution for this without
>   adding more cruft to wikitext behavior or kicking the cleanup can down
>   the road.
>
> * As the issues in the identified linter categories are fixed, we might be
>   better able to isolate other issues that need addressing.
>
> 8. So, when will Tidy actually be replaced?
> -------------------------------------------
> We really would like to get Tidy removed from the cluster latest by June
> 2018
> (or sooner if possible), and your assistance and prompt attention to these
> markup issues would be very helpful. We will do this in a phased manner on
> different wikis rather than all at once on all wikis.
>
> We really want to do this as smoothly as possible without disrupting the
> work
> of editors or affecting the rendering of the large corpus of pages on the
> various wikis. As you might have gathered from the text above, we have
> built
> and leveraged a wide variety of tools to assist with this.
>
> 9. Monitoring progress
> ----------------------
> In order to monitor progress, we plan to do a weekly (or some such periodic
> frequency) test run that compares the rendering of pages with Tidy and with
> RemexHTML on a large sample of pages (in the 50K range) from a large subset
> of Wikimedia wikis (~50 or so).  This will give us a pulse of how fixups
> are
> going, and when we might be able to flip the switch on different wikis.
>
> Subramanya (Subbu) Sastry
> Parsing Team.
>
> References
> ----------
> 0. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ
> 1. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ#
> What_will_editors_need_to_do.3F
> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML_Tidy
> 3. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/tidy/
> 4. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89331
> 5. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-libs-RemexHtml
> 6. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120345
> 7. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-uprightdiff
> 8. https://github.com/wikimedia/integration-visualdiff
> 9. https://github.com/wikimedia/mediawiki-services-parsoid-testreduce
> 10. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy
> 11. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T48705
> 12. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Goal:_
> Replacing_Tidy
> 13. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter#Verifyi
> ng_fixes_for_these_lint_categories
> 14. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157418
>
>
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Arlo Breault

> On Jul 11, 2017, at 6:13 AM, Nicolas Vervelle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   - Where is it possible to change the description displayed in each page
>   dedicated to a category ?

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/source/mediawiki-extensions-Linter/browse/master/i18n/fr.json;6fc72c808136676da0302d98601bd4662a6b8022$37


> For example, the page for self-closed-ags [2] is
>   very short. It would be nice to be able to add a description of what the
>   error is, what problems it can cause and what are the solutions to fix it
>   (or to be able to link to a page explaining all that).

In the top right corner, there's a link to "Aide"

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Linter/self-closed-tag


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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
In reply to this post by Nicolas Vervelle-4
On 07/11/2017 05:13 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:

> But I have a few questions / suggestions regarding Linter for the moment:
>
>     - Is is possible to retrieve also the localized names of the Linter
>     categories and priorities: for example, on frwiki, you can see on the
>     Linter page [1] that the high priority is translated into "Priorité haute"
>     and that self-closed-tag has a user friendly name "Balises auto-fermantes".
>     I don't see the localized names in the informations sent by the API for
>     siteinfo.

Okay, will file a bug and take a look at this.

>     - Where is it possible to change the description displayed in each page
>     dedicated to a category ? For example, the page for self-closed-ags [2] is
>     very short. It would be nice to be able to add a description of what the
>     error is, what problems it can cause and what are the solutions to fix it
>     (or to be able to link to a page explaining all that).

Arlo already responded to this, but yes, you can update the message via
translatewiki, I think.
>     - In the page dedicated to a category, there's a column telling if the
>     problem is due to one template (and which one) or by several templates, but
>     I don't get this information in the REST API for Linter. Is it possible to
>     have it in the API result or should I deduce it myself where the offset
>     given by the API matches a call to a template?

Look for this in the template response.

|"templateInfo": { "multiPartTemplateBlock": true }|

Subbu.
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nick Wilson (Quiddity)
On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Subramanya Sastry
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/11/2017 05:13 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:
>>     - Where is it possible to change the description displayed in each
>> page
>>     dedicated to a category ? For example, the page for self-closed-ags
>> [2] is
>>     very short. It would be nice to be able to add a description of what
>> the
>>     error is, what problems it can cause and what are the solutions to fix
>> it
>>     (or to be able to link to a page explaining all that).
>
>
> Arlo already responded to this, but yes, you can update the message via
> translatewiki, I think.

Specifically:
https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Special:Translate/ext-linter?language=fr&group=ext-linter&filter=&action=translate
(Translatewiki links can be found in the infobox, on all Extension
pages. If anyone is not familiar with the project, see
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Translatewiki.net )

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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
In reply to this post by Subramanya Sastry
On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 07/11/2017 05:13 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:
>
> But I have a few questions / suggestions regarding Linter for the moment:
>>
>>     - Is is possible to retrieve also the localized names of the Linter
>>     categories and priorities: for example, on frwiki, you can see on the
>>     Linter page [1] that the high priority is translated into "Priorité
>> haute"
>>     and that self-closed-tag has a user friendly name "Balises
>> auto-fermantes".
>>     I don't see the localized names in the informations sent by the API
>> for
>>     siteinfo.
>>
>
> Okay, will file a bug and take a look at this.


I used Arlo answer, and I'm getting the localized names from the messages,
so I can do without the localized names in Linter answers.

Nico
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
Hi Subbu,

Using the localized names, I've found that not all Linter categories are
listed in the API result. Is it normal ?
For example, on frwiki, Linter reports 3 "mixed-content" errors for "Les
Trolls (film)" but this category is not in the API siteinfo call.

Nico

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Nicolas Vervelle <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 07/11/2017 05:13 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:
>>
>> But I have a few questions / suggestions regarding Linter for the moment:
>>>
>>>     - Is is possible to retrieve also the localized names of the Linter
>>>     categories and priorities: for example, on frwiki, you can see on the
>>>     Linter page [1] that the high priority is translated into "Priorité
>>> haute"
>>>     and that self-closed-tag has a user friendly name "Balises
>>> auto-fermantes".
>>>     I don't see the localized names in the informations sent by the API
>>> for
>>>     siteinfo.
>>>
>>
>> Okay, will file a bug and take a look at this.
>
>
> I used Arlo answer, and I'm getting the localized names from the messages,
> so I can do without the localized names in Linter answers.
>
> Nico
>
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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Subramanya Sastry
On 07/12/2017 01:12 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:

> Hi Subbu,
>
> Using the localized names, I've found that not all Linter categories are
> listed in the API result. Is it normal ?
> For example, on frwiki, Linter reports 3 "mixed-content" errors for "Les
> Trolls (film)" but this category is not in the API siteinfo call.

Yup.

Parsoid currently has detection for more patterns than are exposed via
the Linter extension. Mixed content is more informational at this point
- it will become relevant when we are ready to start nudging markup
towards being more well-formed / well-balanced than it is now.

This was raised earlier on the Linter Extension talk page as well (
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:Tszvb85ccd0thbeo&topic_showPostId=tteddfdly7fin8p6#flow-post-tteddfdly7fin8p6 
)

Subbu.

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Re: Tidy will be replaced by RemexHTML on Wikimedia wikis latest by June 2018

Nicolas Vervelle-4
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Subramanya Sastry <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 07/12/2017 01:12 AM, Nicolas Vervelle wrote:
>
> Hi Subbu,
>>
>> Using the localized names, I've found that not all Linter categories are
>> listed in the API result. Is it normal ?
>> For example, on frwiki, Linter reports 3 "mixed-content" errors for "Les
>> Trolls (film)" but this category is not in the API siteinfo call.
>>
>
> Yup.
>
> Parsoid currently has detection for more patterns than are exposed via the
> Linter extension. Mixed content is more informational at this point - it
> will become relevant when we are ready to start nudging markup towards
> being more well-formed / well-balanced than it is now.
>
> This was raised earlier on the Linter Extension talk page as well (
> https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Topic:Tszvb85ccd
> 0thbeo&topic_showPostId=tteddfdly7fin8p6#flow-post-tteddfdly7fin8p6 )
>

Ok, I will only report patterns known by the Linter extension then.
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