Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

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Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Teofilo
Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
used on their project into their own language.

It is no longer possible now, because Translatewiki exists, and there
is a powerful Translatewiki lobby within the local Wikipedia/Wikimedia
communities which actively fights against the translation of messages
on-wiki, and compells users to open a user account on Translatewiki
(1).

"Translatewiki.net is not part of the Wikimedia Foundation projects" (2).

So users are requested to either

* Let awkward translations go on being displayed on their language
version of Wikipedia
* Or open an account on a non-Wikimedia project, which means providing
non-Wikimedia managers access to your personal data. That means you
are loosing the guarantees of
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy (the guarantee that
your data are accessed only exceptionally and in such exceptional
cases, always handled by people trusted by the Wikimedia Foundation)

A user who wants to remain just that : a Wikimedia user, not a
non-Wikimedia user can no longer work successfully on a
Wikimedia/Wikipedia wiki.

I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to protect its users from the
aggressions of non-Wikimedia projects. And to implement a set of
policies to prevent this sort of non-Wikimedia project lobbying.

I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to support people involved in
translation work, rather than expell them to non-Wikimedia projects.

Symbolically, that means that the Wikimedia Foundation is expelling
internationalisation.

"Internationalisation ? What ? I don't want that to happen in my
house", the Wikimedia Foundation is saying.

(1) http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia%3ADemande_d%27intervention_sur_un_message_syst%C3%A8me&action=historysubmit&diff=61680671&oldid=61680545
(2) http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Project:About

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Chad
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
> users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
> used on their project into their own language.
>

You still are. It's called the MediaWiki namespace. That has never
changed.

-Chad

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Pedro Sanchez-2
In reply to this post by Teofilo
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> (...)
> So users are requested to either
>
> * Let awkward translations go on being displayed on their language
> version of Wikipedia
> * Or open an account on a non-Wikimedia project, which means providing
> non-Wikimedia managers access to your personal data. That means you
> are loosing the guarantees of
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy (the guarantee that
> your data are accessed only exceptionally and in such exceptional
> cases, always handled by people trusted by the Wikimedia Foundation)
>

You don't have to use the same username as on the wiki. You don't EVEN
need to have a wikipedia username.
Nobody can correlate your account on Translatewiki to your Wikipedia
account, unless you do it.

Don't use same password.
Don't use same username.
That's all.

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Jesse (Pathoschild)
In reply to this post by Teofilo
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
> users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
> used on their project into their own language.
>
> It is no longer possible now, because Translatewiki exists, and there
> is a powerful Translatewiki lobby within the local Wikipedia/Wikimedia
> communities which actively fights against the translation of messages
> on-wiki, and compells users to open a user account on Translatewiki


Translatewiki provides an interface for editing the MediaWiki
localization messages. These messages are available to all wikis
(including non-Wikimedia wikis), instead of just one wiki. For
example, see Meta with a Chinese interface:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/No_such_page?uselang=zh .

You can still translate the wiki directly by editing the MediaWiki
namespace, the same way it has always been done. This change will not
be available to other wikis, and the message will no longer be updated
from Translatewiki.

--
Yours cordially,
Jesse (Pathoschild)

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Amir E. Aharoni
In reply to this post by Teofilo
2011/1/27 Teofilo <[hidden email]>:
> Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
> users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
> used on their project into their own language.
>
> It is no longer possible now,

As Chad said, it's still possible and it's often done in many wikis.

> because Translatewiki exists, and there
> is a powerful Translatewiki lobby within the local Wikipedia/Wikimedia
> communities which actively fights against the translation of messages
> on-wiki, and compells users to open a user account on Translatewiki
> (1).

It's "powerful" simply because it makes sense not to duplicate the
effort by translating messages on-wiki. If a certain message makes
sense for MediaWiki in general, but not for Wikipedia, then it can and
should be changed on-wiki after community discussion. The existence of
a whole page devoted to such discussions in the French Wikipedia is a
proof that this system works.

> * Let awkward translations go on being displayed on their language
> version of Wikipedia

... Or discuss changing them and ask the admins to implement the decision.

If you think that changing that particular message in fr.wikipedia
should be done locally and not in Translatewiki.net, express your
opinion there.

> * Or open an account on a non-Wikimedia project, which means providing
> non-Wikimedia managers access to your personal data. That means you
> are loosing the guarantees of
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy (the guarantee that
> your data are accessed only exceptionally and in such exceptional
> cases, always handled by people trusted by the Wikimedia Foundation)

Translatewiki.net has a privacy policy, too.

> I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to protect its users from the
> aggressions of non-Wikimedia projects. And to implement a set of
> policies to prevent this sort of non-Wikimedia project lobbying.

This is not aggression. Even though it's not officially connected to
the WMF, the people operating Translatewiki.net are important
contributors to Wikimedia projects and to MediaWiki. Thanks to
Translatewiki.net localization became simpler and faster. It's true
that the WMF could have made it, but the WMF didn't do it, and
Translatewiki.net did and it fit pretty well into the way MediaWiki is
developed.

> I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to support people involved in
> translation work, rather than expell them to non-Wikimedia projects.

I do hope that the collaboration between Translatewiki.net and the WMF
will become tighter, but there's nothing terribly broken in the way
things work now.

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Fajro
The free encyclopedia that anyone can translate?

I find Translatewiki.net very  "user-unfriendly".
WMF could use more than one site for the translations.
For example, I would prefer to use Transifex :
http://www.transifex.net/

--
Fajro

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Strainu
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
2011/1/27 Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>:
> 2011/1/27 Teofilo <[hidden email]>:
>> Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
>> users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
>> used on their project into their own language.
>>
>> It is no longer possible now,
>
> As Chad said, it's still possible and it's often done in many wikis.

It's even recommendable to do it. The messages on TranslateWiki should
be generic and without internal links, because they might be used on
different websites. These messages can be improved by introducing
internal links and references to wiki* policies.

>> * Or open an account on a non-Wikimedia project, which means providing
>> non-Wikimedia managers access to your personal data. That means you
>> are loosing the guarantees of
>> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy (the guarantee that
>> your data are accessed only exceptionally and in such exceptional
>> cases, always handled by people trusted by the Wikimedia Foundation)
>
> Translatewiki.net has a privacy policy, too.

That's one of the reasons I proposed the implementation of an open-id
provider using the Wikimedia login (i.e. being able to login to
translatewiki and other websites using your wikipedia password)

>
>> I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to support people involved in
>> translation work, rather than expell them to non-Wikimedia projects.
>
> I do hope that the collaboration between Translatewiki.net and the WMF
> will become tighter, but there's nothing terribly broken in the way
> things work now.

Still, it would make sense to allow some trusted user svn access to
the translations. Bug 24951 is open for 6 months now because some of
the translations aren't automatically updated and the review backlog
hasn't reached the relevant revision.

Strainu

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Amir E. Aharoni
Hoi,
Yes you can localise at your own Wiki. It is even recommended for several
messages, particularly those messages that are specific to messages about
policies and what not particular to your wiki. Such specific texts are
explicitly what we do not want at translatewiki.net because at translatewiki
we localise MediaWiki. This is to ensure that all the MediaWiki
installations can use the localised messages per default.

As to translatewiki.net not being a Wikimedia Foundation project, you know,
it could be. It certainly has many of the necessary qualifications. Even
when you look at the people involved, they are quite substantial in the
Wikimedia world; Siebrand has a part time contract to ensure high quality
from the Wikimedia Foundation, Nikerabbit is on the board of the Finnish
chapter, I am on the language committee... Most of the people who contribute
localisations are heavily involved in their language projects many of them
as admins or bureaucrats.

Each language has a project page for a language and we are really happy when
many people contribute for a language; it raises the standards. Typically
there are very few issues between the translators for a language and when
they exist, the people who run translatewiki do not get involved. We do not
necessarily know any particular language as you can imagine.

One very powerful reason why you should not localise locally is because
there is no way that you will know locally when a message gets changed. The
consequence is that the quality of locally localised messages do not get the
same quality assurance as it gets in translatewiki.

So in essence, localising at translatewiki.net does enhance the quality of
the localisation. Only messages with changes that give specific information
for a local wiki should be localised locally.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 27 January 2011 18:15, Amir E. Aharoni <[hidden email]>wrote:

> 2011/1/27 Teofilo <[hidden email]>:
> > Before Translatewiki existed it was possible for Wikimedia/Wikipedia
> > users to improve the translation of the Mediawiki software's message
> > used on their project into their own language.
> >
> > It is no longer possible now,
>
> As Chad said, it's still possible and it's often done in many wikis.
>
> > because Translatewiki exists, and there
> > is a powerful Translatewiki lobby within the local Wikipedia/Wikimedia
> > communities which actively fights against the translation of messages
> > on-wiki, and compells users to open a user account on Translatewiki
> > (1).
>
> It's "powerful" simply because it makes sense not to duplicate the
> effort by translating messages on-wiki. If a certain message makes
> sense for MediaWiki in general, but not for Wikipedia, then it can and
> should be changed on-wiki after community discussion. The existence of
> a whole page devoted to such discussions in the French Wikipedia is a
> proof that this system works.
>
> > * Let awkward translations go on being displayed on their language
> > version of Wikipedia
>
> ... Or discuss changing them and ask the admins to implement the decision.
>
> If you think that changing that particular message in fr.wikipedia
> should be done locally and not in Translatewiki.net, express your
> opinion there.
>
> > * Or open an account on a non-Wikimedia project, which means providing
> > non-Wikimedia managers access to your personal data. That means you
> > are loosing the guarantees of
> > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy (the guarantee that
> > your data are accessed only exceptionally and in such exceptional
> > cases, always handled by people trusted by the Wikimedia Foundation)
>
> Translatewiki.net has a privacy policy, too.
>
> > I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to protect its users from the
> > aggressions of non-Wikimedia projects. And to implement a set of
> > policies to prevent this sort of non-Wikimedia project lobbying.
>
> This is not aggression. Even though it's not officially connected to
> the WMF, the people operating Translatewiki.net are important
> contributors to Wikimedia projects and to MediaWiki. Thanks to
> Translatewiki.net localization became simpler and faster. It's true
> that the WMF could have made it, but the WMF didn't do it, and
> Translatewiki.net did and it fit pretty well into the way MediaWiki is
> developed.
>
> > I ask the Wikimedia Foundation to support people involved in
> > translation work, rather than expell them to non-Wikimedia projects.
>
> I do hope that the collaboration between Translatewiki.net and the WMF
> will become tighter, but there's nothing terribly broken in the way
> things work now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Liam Wyatt
In reply to this post by Strainu
On 28/01/2011, at 7:22, Strainu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's one of the reasons I proposed the implementation of an open-id
> provider using the Wikimedia login (i.e. being able to login to
> translatewiki and other websites using your wikipedia password)

+1. yes please!

Wittylama.com/blog
Peace, love & metadata

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

MZMcBride-2
In reply to this post by Strainu
Strainu wrote:
> These messages can be improved by introducing internal links and references to
> wiki* policies.

Why do you hate Wiktionary? ;-)

MZMcBride



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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Jesse (Pathoschild)
2011/1/27 Jesse (Pathoschild) <[hidden email]>:
> These messages are available to all wikis
> (including non-Wikimedia wikis), instead of just one wiki.

That means contributing as a volunteer to a variety of websites with
different principles. Wikimedia is a non profit and it is dedicated to
the distribution of culture and knowledge, and this is what I am
interested in. I am not interested in contributing voluntarily for,
say, Intellipedia,  the CIA's wiki (they probably use a non-mediawiki
software, but they could).

There is a difference between letting non-Wikimedia wikis copy
everything they want (fork anything they want) from Wikimedia contents
and software, and working together with them, finding compromises half
way between their needs and ours.

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

David Gerard-2
On 28 January 2011 14:12, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2011/1/27 Jesse (Pathoschild) <[hidden email]>:

>> These messages are available to all wikis
>> (including non-Wikimedia wikis), instead of just one wiki.

> That means contributing as a volunteer to a variety of websites with
> different principles. Wikimedia is a non profit and it is dedicated to
> the distribution of culture and knowledge, and this is what I am
> interested in. I am not interested in contributing voluntarily for,
> say, Intellipedia,  the CIA's wiki (they probably use a non-mediawiki
> software, but they could).


Then don't contribute.

You don't appear to understand the "for any purpose" bit of what makes
free software or free content free.

If you read this bug:

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26791

- do you understand why it was considered a valid bug report?


- d.

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Teofilo
Hoi,
When you contribute at translatewiki.net, you contribute to the localisation
of Open Source / Free software. When YOU only want to contribute to
Wikipedia, please do not localise MediaWiki because it does not give us all
the best solution.

Your notion of Wikimedia and its contributions are at odds with what the
notions of the WMF. We want to provide knowledge and the tools to acquire
knowledge to all comers. When the CIA uses MediaWiki and it does, we are
happy because as a result we do and did get feedback on the use of our
project. When the CIA wants to use LocalisationUpdate and its people help
localise at translatewiki.net we could not be more happy.

Please study what Open Source / Free Software means and what its licenses
actually say.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 28 January 2011 15:12, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/1/27 Jesse (Pathoschild) <[hidden email]>:
> > These messages are available to all wikis
> > (including non-Wikimedia wikis), instead of just one wiki.
>
> That means contributing as a volunteer to a variety of websites with
> different principles. Wikimedia is a non profit and it is dedicated to
> the distribution of culture and knowledge, and this is what I am
> interested in. I am not interested in contributing voluntarily for,
> say, Intellipedia,  the CIA's wiki (they probably use a non-mediawiki
> software, but they could).
>
> There is a difference between letting non-Wikimedia wikis copy
> everything they want (fork anything they want) from Wikimedia contents
> and software, and working together with them, finding compromises half
> way between their needs and ours.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
2011/1/27 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:

> One very powerful reason why you should not localise locally is because
> there is no way that you will know locally when a message gets changed. The
> consequence is that the quality of locally localised messages do not get the
> same quality assurance as it gets in translatewiki.
>
> So in essence, localising at translatewiki.net does enhance the quality of
> the localisation. Only messages with changes that give specific information
> for a local wiki should be localised locally.
> Thanks,
>      GerardM


When I hear "there is no way that you will know locally when a message
gets changed", many warning lights are flashing in my cockpit. A
non-Wikimedia community has the power of changing things within a
Wikimedia website without the Wikimedia people being warned
beforehand.

According the New Statesman (1), Jimbo Wales used the word
"self-reliance" in a comment about the Wikipedia spirit. In my view,
relying on a non-Wikimedia website and community is not self-reliance.

Today only the translations are expelled to a non-Wikimedia website
and community.

Tomorrow, will the same happen to bugzilla ?

One of the strenghts of the Wikimedia projects is the reactivity of
the community. When there is something wrong, people file a bug.

If the bug-filing place is moved to a far away place, the reactivity
might be lower (your comment that "there are very few issues between
the translators" might mean that the reactivity is low). If it remains
high, it means Wikimedia is providing volunteers to a non-Wikimedia
community. It means Wikimedia sends its volunteers to work on
non-Wikimedia projects. Is Wikimedia a volunteer hiring agency for a
variety of wikis not sharing the same purposes ?

(1) http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/01/jimmy-wales-wikipedia-vote

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Gerard Meijssen-3
2011/1/28 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> When the CIA uses MediaWiki and it does, we are
> happy because as a result we do and did get feedback on the use of our
> project. When the CIA wants to use LocalisationUpdate and its people help
> localise at translatewiki.net we could not be more happy.

As I said, I have nothing about anybody reusing the contents. However
I am against entering into a community with anybody. I want to enter
only communities with which I share some values.

Let's forget about the CIA. I have nothing against the CIA.

Let's imagine a group with non-democratic values provides translators
to Translatewiki. Then that group has a legitimacy to have a say in
the way Translatewiki is managed. Then that group can impose its power
structure in the management of Translatewiki. Then for some
unexplained reason, they hire bad translators, who really do bad work.
Can I say "hello, I am from Wikipedia, and I think your translation is
wrong, please change it". No I can't. It is too late. They have
imposed their non-democratic power structure, and there is no way to
change what people superior to me in their non-democratic hierarchical
power structure are imposing. In a non-democratic power structure the
only thing you can do is shut up.

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Arlen Beiler
Or boycott their translations and start a WMF transwiki.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/1/28 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> > When the CIA uses MediaWiki and it does, we are
> > happy because as a result we do and did get feedback on the use of our
> > project. When the CIA wants to use LocalisationUpdate and its people help
> > localise at translatewiki.net we could not be more happy.
>
> As I said, I have nothing about anybody reusing the contents. However
> I am against entering into a community with anybody. I want to enter
> only communities with which I share some values.
>
> Let's forget about the CIA. I have nothing against the CIA.
>
> Let's imagine a group with non-democratic values provides translators
> to Translatewiki. Then that group has a legitimacy to have a say in
> the way Translatewiki is managed. Then that group can impose its power
> structure in the management of Translatewiki. Then for some
> unexplained reason, they hire bad translators, who really do bad work.
> Can I say "hello, I am from Wikipedia, and I think your translation is
> wrong, please change it". No I can't. It is too late. They have
> imposed their non-democratic power structure, and there is no way to
> change what people superior to me in their non-democratic hierarchical
> power structure are imposing. In a non-democratic power structure the
> only thing you can do is shut up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Teofilo
Hoi,
When messages get changed in the code repository system by people who
contribute to the development of MediaWiki, it is done in a Wikimedia
Foundation project. When messages change, it is detected at
translatewiki.net and consequently action is taken to signal the need for
action. This is done to ensure the best possible localisation for MediaWiki.

The core developers of translatewiki.net are core developers of MediaWiki..
Sorry, but your conspiracy theories are just that.. If you want to, you can
run the software used by translatewiki.net ... it is available at the WMF
code repository.. I doubt though that you get sufficient access to the WMF
project you contribute to run the necessary processes.

Again, PLEASE study open source and its licenses and PLEASE consider
assuming good faith.
Thanks,
       GerardM



On 28 January 2011 15:58, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/1/27 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> > One very powerful reason why you should not localise locally is because
> > there is no way that you will know locally when a message gets changed.
> The
> > consequence is that the quality of locally localised messages do not get
> the
> > same quality assurance as it gets in translatewiki.
> >
> > So in essence, localising at translatewiki.net does enhance the quality
> of
> > the localisation. Only messages with changes that give specific
> information
> > for a local wiki should be localised locally.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
>
>
> When I hear "there is no way that you will know locally when a message
> gets changed", many warning lights are flashing in my cockpit. A
> non-Wikimedia community has the power of changing things within a
> Wikimedia website without the Wikimedia people being warned
> beforehand.
>
> According the New Statesman (1), Jimbo Wales used the word
> "self-reliance" in a comment about the Wikipedia spirit. In my view,
> relying on a non-Wikimedia website and community is not self-reliance.
>
> Today only the translations are expelled to a non-Wikimedia website
> and community.
>
> Tomorrow, will the same happen to bugzilla ?
>
> One of the strenghts of the Wikimedia projects is the reactivity of
> the community. When there is something wrong, people file a bug.
>
> If the bug-filing place is moved to a far away place, the reactivity
> might be lower (your comment that "there are very few issues between
> the translators" might mean that the reactivity is low). If it remains
> high, it means Wikimedia is providing volunteers to a non-Wikimedia
> community. It means Wikimedia sends its volunteers to work on
> non-Wikimedia projects. Is Wikimedia a volunteer hiring agency for a
> variety of wikis not sharing the same purposes ?
>
> (1)
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/01/jimmy-wales-wikipedia-vote
>
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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Teofilo
Hoi,
Sorry but there are a few people who have the power and who do the work.
When an organisation does contribute at translatewiki.net, that is exactly
what they do. When you want to contribute you are welcome, not because you
are a Wikipedian but because you contribute to the localisation of software
in your language.

The people who localise are volunteers. When someone pays people to do a
translation, that is none of our concern or business. When a translation is
done badly, we welcome people to proof read and improve. When there is a
systemic difference ie formal versus informal language use or a specific
orthography like UK vs US English, people can ask to localise in a specific
way and when it makes sense it is granted.

Please do understand that the WMF does accept the
translatewiki.netlocalisation because our community has earned it
because of the quality of
its work. Our developers are MediaWiki developers because of the merit of
their work.

We are always looking for people willing to do good. There are over 300
languages and orthographies we support. The quality is the quality of the
people who make a difference. The people who make a difference are the ones
who do the work not the ones who are known for talk.
Thanks,
       GerardM

On 28 January 2011 16:08, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2011/1/28 Gerard Meijssen <[hidden email]>:
> > When the CIA uses MediaWiki and it does, we are
> > happy because as a result we do and did get feedback on the use of our
> > project. When the CIA wants to use LocalisationUpdate and its people help
> > localise at translatewiki.net we could not be more happy.
>
> As I said, I have nothing about anybody reusing the contents. However
> I am against entering into a community with anybody. I want to enter
> only communities with which I share some values.
>
> Let's forget about the CIA. I have nothing against the CIA.
>
> Let's imagine a group with non-democratic values provides translators
> to Translatewiki. Then that group has a legitimacy to have a say in
> the way Translatewiki is managed. Then that group can impose its power
> structure in the management of Translatewiki. Then for some
> unexplained reason, they hire bad translators, who really do bad work.
> Can I say "hello, I am from Wikipedia, and I think your translation is
> wrong, please change it". No I can't. It is too late. They have
> imposed their non-democratic power structure, and there is no way to
> change what people superior to me in their non-democratic hierarchical
> power structure are imposing. In a non-democratic power structure the
> only thing you can do is shut up.
>
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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

Marcus Buck-2
In reply to this post by Arlen Beiler
An'n 28.01.2011 16:11, hett Arlen Beiler schreven:
> Or boycott their translations and start a WMF transwiki.
That seems sensible! *eyeroll*

If you look in the archives of this mailing list, you'll notice that the
Translatewiki guys asked Wikimedia to host the wiki more than once. They
would have been happy to join and be part of the "official" Wikimedia
universe. But Wikimedia didn't get its ass off the ground and nothing
happened.

If you people really worry about undemocratic regimes overtaking
Translatewiki and other evil stuff then direct your efforts against
Wikimedia (which never bothered to provide a sensible way for
localisation) and not against the guys who actually fixed the
shortcomings. I guess, they would still be willing to settle under the
Wikimedia roof, or am I wrong? (@Gerard Meijssen and the other
Translatewiki guys)

Marcus Buck
User:Slomox (both on Wikimedia and on Translatewiki)

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Re: Translatewiki illustrates how low internationalisation is in the priorities of the Wikimedia Foundation

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Teofilo
On 28 January 2011 15:08, Teofilo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Let's imagine a group with non-democratic values provides translators
> to Translatewiki.


You really don't understand that "for any purpose" bit, do you?

If you don't want to contribute to a project (Wikimedia,) whose works

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