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Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

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Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Chris Koerner-2
Hello my multilingual friends,

I have a favor to ask. The Reading team at the foundation is getting ready to start the second round of deployments for the Page Previews feature. We are trying to reach as many communities as we can in their language. Translating this message to the communities in this group would be very helpful and much appreciated - both from me and the communities themselves! :)


As always, you're a beautiful person and I appreciate the help.

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Philippe Verdy
Why forbidding French ? Many of the minority languages selected are for users that cannot understand English but would more likely read French (notably in Africa, but also in Canada), and could translate from the French base (or at least read the French version in case of ambiguity)

English is frequently a very ambiguous language (absence of orthographic distinction of nouns vs. verbs, frequent ommission of prepositions, many terms with multiple meanings, abuse of capitalization...). English is not the only "lingua franca" of the world, you can safely add French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Chinese. But French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese are... forbidden here!

In all the listed languages allowed, these are spoken by very small communities with very few contributors on Wikimedia, and even less ones that are translators: if you restrict them to be able to read and understand English, you'll get almost no translation for many of these languages where English is not a **major** secondary language.

Take an example: translating to Breton (Brezhoneg), not a lot translators for this language, but almost all of them use French as their primary language (Breton is almost always a secondary regional language understood now by a minority in its native region), English is much less understood by these translators and they would appreciate having a good quality French version at least to check what they more or less attempt to read in English.

2017-04-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Chris Koerner <[hidden email]>:
Hello my multilingual friends,

I have a favor to ask. The Reading team at the foundation is getting ready to start the second round of deployments for the Page Previews feature. We are trying to reach as many communities as we can in their language. Translating this message to the communities in this group would be very helpful and much appreciated - both from me and the communities themselves! :)


As always, you're a beautiful person and I appreciate the help.

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Philippe Verdy
Note that you have forbidden French, but have allowed "Simple English" which is definitely not a priority (standard English is already in the source, and there's actually no real need to "simplify" it in this translation request).

In general all major linguas francas (spoken in many countries) should be enabled in all translation requests, even if it's not the final intended target. And anyway this page is important for all languages, not just minority ones, as it is about a new general feature.

As the result, you'll get translations ONLY in countries where English is widely understood as a official, regional or native primary/secondary language, and widely taught in schools with a good skill level. This request won't work like you'd like in South America (except possibly Argentina but you don't have any minority language listed for that country), India (English is secondary, Hindi is official, but many people cannot read English and translate it correctly to their regional language), South-East Asia, Western/North/Central Africa. And where another major lingua franca is used (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese), English understanding translation skills are largely underdeveloped.

2017-04-13 16:11 GMT+02:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
Why forbidding French ? Many of the minority languages selected are for users that cannot understand English but would more likely read French (notably in Africa, but also in Canada), and could translate from the French base (or at least read the French version in case of ambiguity)

English is frequently a very ambiguous language (absence of orthographic distinction of nouns vs. verbs, frequent ommission of prepositions, many terms with multiple meanings, abuse of capitalization...). English is not the only "lingua franca" of the world, you can safely add French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Chinese. But French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese are... forbidden here!

In all the listed languages allowed, these are spoken by very small communities with very few contributors on Wikimedia, and even less ones that are translators: if you restrict them to be able to read and understand English, you'll get almost no translation for many of these languages where English is not a **major** secondary language.

Take an example: translating to Breton (Brezhoneg), not a lot translators for this language, but almost all of them use French as their primary language (Breton is almost always a secondary regional language understood now by a minority in its native region), English is much less understood by these translators and they would appreciate having a good quality French version at least to check what they more or less attempt to read in English.

2017-04-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Chris Koerner <[hidden email]>:
Hello my multilingual friends,

I have a favor to ask. The Reading team at the foundation is getting ready to start the second round of deployments for the Page Previews feature. We are trying to reach as many communities as we can in their language. Translating this message to the communities in this group would be very helpful and much appreciated - both from me and the communities themselves! :)


As always, you're a beautiful person and I appreciate the help.

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Philippe Verdy
Note also that Wikiemdia uses language fallbacks to these major languages (not necessarily English first): you seem to ignore that.
If there's no translation in these linguas franca, the language fallbacks for missing translations in minority language will only display English text which is not helpful at all.

How do you think there will be translations in Zeeuws, if a Dutch translation is forbidden (even if the Netherlands has one of the best English understanding level as as secondary language)?

2017-04-13 16:21 GMT+02:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
Note that you have forbidden French, but have allowed "Simple English" which is definitely not a priority (standard English is already in the source, and there's actually no real need to "simplify" it in this translation request).

In general all major linguas francas (spoken in many countries) should be enabled in all translation requests, even if it's not the final intended target. And anyway this page is important for all languages, not just minority ones, as it is about a new general feature.

As the result, you'll get translations ONLY in countries where English is widely understood as a official, regional or native primary/secondary language, and widely taught in schools with a good skill level. This request won't work like you'd like in South America (except possibly Argentina but you don't have any minority language listed for that country), India (English is secondary, Hindi is official, but many people cannot read English and translate it correctly to their regional language), South-East Asia, Western/North/Central Africa. And where another major lingua franca is used (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese), English understanding translation skills are largely underdeveloped.

2017-04-13 16:11 GMT+02:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
Why forbidding French ? Many of the minority languages selected are for users that cannot understand English but would more likely read French (notably in Africa, but also in Canada), and could translate from the French base (or at least read the French version in case of ambiguity)

English is frequently a very ambiguous language (absence of orthographic distinction of nouns vs. verbs, frequent ommission of prepositions, many terms with multiple meanings, abuse of capitalization...). English is not the only "lingua franca" of the world, you can safely add French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Chinese. But French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese are... forbidden here!

In all the listed languages allowed, these are spoken by very small communities with very few contributors on Wikimedia, and even less ones that are translators: if you restrict them to be able to read and understand English, you'll get almost no translation for many of these languages where English is not a **major** secondary language.

Take an example: translating to Breton (Brezhoneg), not a lot translators for this language, but almost all of them use French as their primary language (Breton is almost always a secondary regional language understood now by a minority in its native region), English is much less understood by these translators and they would appreciate having a good quality French version at least to check what they more or less attempt to read in English.

2017-04-12 19:12 GMT+02:00 Chris Koerner <[hidden email]>:
Hello my multilingual friends,

I have a favor to ask. The Reading team at the foundation is getting ready to start the second round of deployments for the Page Previews feature. We are trying to reach as many communities as we can in their language. Translating this message to the communities in this group would be very helpful and much appreciated - both from me and the communities themselves! :)


As always, you're a beautiful person and I appreciate the help.

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Guillaume Paumier-3
In reply to this post by Philippe Verdy
Hello,

2017-04-13 7:11 GMT-07:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
>
> Why forbidding French ?

French isn't "forbidden"; it's simply not defined as a priority,
presumably because Chris prefers that communities where the feature is
currently planned to be enabled receive the message in their native
language.

There is nothing preventing you from clicking the "Translate this
page" link at the top of the page, selecting "French", and translating
the page as usual:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-User%3ACKoerner+%28WMF%29%2FEnable+Hovercards%2FPhase+1&language=fr&action=page&filter=

--
Guillaume Paumier

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Sylvain Chiron
Le 13/04/2017 à 16:50, Guillaume Paumier a écrit :
> French isn't "forbidden"

‘Failed to save translation: Translation of this page to this language
has been prevented by a translation administrator. Reason: Some
communities already contacted, others to be contacted separately’
--
Sylvain

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Guillaume Paumier-3
2017-04-13 8:28 GMT-07:00 Sylvain Chiron <[hidden email]>:
> Le 13/04/2017 à 16:50, Guillaume Paumier a écrit :
>> French isn't "forbidden"
>
> ‘Failed to save translation: Translation of this page to this language
> has been prevented by a translation administrator. Reason: Some
> communities already contacted, others to be contacted separately’

Ah, I now see this message, which I missed because the Translate
extension automatically moves to the next translation item without
showing it.

My bad, then.

--
Guillaume Paumier

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Chris Koerner-2
In reply to this post by Chris Koerner-2
Hello,

I didn't wish to waste translators time by translating into a language we wouldn't use in this round of reaching out to Wikipedia communities. My apologies for any confusion as I was unaware that it would acutely prevent - as in stop you from saving - translations to any languages outside the list.

Philippe, I hope you can see by the sheer number of languages I did ask for that I had no intent to forbid any language!  Thank you for sharing you concerns, I appreciate the education in the nuance of language. Sincerely. 

I've removed the check from the box preventing translations. 

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Philippe Verdy
Well it still does not help at all the small communities if all they can do is translate only from English and not some other major secondary language they know and use regularly.
It's a fact that French is blocked with the yellow message when saving...

2017-04-13 17:44 GMT+02:00 Chris Koerner <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

I didn't wish to waste translators time by translating into a language we wouldn't use in this round of reaching out to Wikipedia communities. My apologies for any confusion as I was unaware that it would acutely prevent - as in stop you from saving - translations to any languages outside the list.

Philippe, I hope you can see by the sheer number of languages I did ask for that I had no intent to forbid any language!  Thank you for sharing you concerns, I appreciate the education in the nuance of language. Sincerely. 

I've removed the check from the box preventing translations. 

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: Translation request for turning on the Page Previews feature on the second group of Wikipedias

Philippe Verdy
Issue solved for French, Spanish and Portuguese. I see that Swedish and Ukrainian was also completed (notably because there are minority regional languages in Sweden and Ukraine).

Note that I have splitted some long tranlsation units. Its best to keep them short. Don't be too "lazy" by including everything in a single <translate></translate> section :

* long units discourage translators: you can perfectly split long paragraphs on sentences boundaries whose mening is self-contained and does not depend too much on the context of use (just don't break sentences in the middle).
* and every list should be split with one unit per item.

This also allows better reuse of the translation memory and allows further updates with additional items if needed.

2017-04-13 20:10 GMT+02:00 Philippe Verdy <[hidden email]>:
Well it still does not help at all the small communities if all they can do is translate only from English and not some other major secondary language they know and use regularly.
It's a fact that French is blocked with the yellow message when saving...

2017-04-13 17:44 GMT+02:00 Chris Koerner <[hidden email]>:
Hello,

I didn't wish to waste translators time by translating into a language we wouldn't use in this round of reaching out to Wikipedia communities. My apologies for any confusion as I was unaware that it would acutely prevent - as in stop you from saving - translations to any languages outside the list.

Philippe, I hope you can see by the sheer number of languages I did ask for that I had no intent to forbid any language!  Thank you for sharing you concerns, I appreciate the education in the nuance of language. Sincerely. 

I've removed the check from the box preventing translations. 

Yours,
Chris Koerner
Community Liaison - Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation

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