Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

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Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

JePe
On http://fundraising.wikimedia.org there are now next to English some
translations made. How can we make a translation in another language?

Hans (JePe)



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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Brad Patrick
Most of it
should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E.



JePe wrote:

> On http://fundraising.wikimedia.org there are now next to English some
> translations made. How can we make a translation in another language?
>
> Hans (JePe)
>
>
>
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>  
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Bence Damokos
Hi.
I translated it to Hungarian, but I have to notice, that you cannot
translate the meaning of C.O.R.E. Core Online Rsomething Esomething, that is
displayed under the title, and thus you have the dilemma of wether to
localise CORE.

Regards, Bence

On 12/18/06, Brad Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Most of it
> should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E.
>
>
>
> JePe wrote:
> > On http://fundraising.wikimedia.org there are now next to English some
> > translations made. How can we make a translation in another language?
> >
> > Hans (JePe)
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

KIZU Naoko
Again, "the pun is one of most difficulties for translation".
There are at least two ways to deal with:
- 1. Leave both the current title and its full title in English, then
add the full title in Hungarian.
- 2. Ignore the English abbraviation title and put the Hungalian,
based on translation of the full title in English (Core Online R...
E....), either full lengthy one or abbraviation. Just Village Pump is
only named so in English and some communities have no idea what VP is
(I saw sometimes questions "Go to VP to do something" "What's VP?").

Personally I prefer the second, but again, it depends on the character
of your community. Some prefer 1, some 2. I have no idea.

On 12/19/06, Bence Damokos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.
> I translated it to Hungarian, but I have to notice, that you cannot
> translate the meaning of C.O.R.E. Core Online Rsomething Esomething, that is
> displayed under the title, and thus you have the dilemma of wether to
> localise CORE.
>
> Regards, Bence
>
> On 12/18/06, Brad Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Most of it
> > should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.
> >
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E.
> >
> >
> >
> > JePe wrote:
> > > On http://fundraising.wikimedia.org there are now next to English some
> > > translations made. How can we make a translation in another language?
> > >
> > > Hans (JePe)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


--
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  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Lars Aronsson
Aphaia wrote:

> Again, "the pun is one of most difficulties for translation".
> There are at least two ways to deal with:

C.O.R.E. is not a pun, because it isn't funny.  I'm not laughing
when I see this user interface and this translation request.  
Most importantly, the translation request on meta doesn't provide
any context, not even a link back to the website
fundraising.wikimedia.org.

I made the Swedish translation of http://www.citeulike.org/
and that work was a dream, because of how the user interface was
designed.  It was the wiki principle applied to a UI.  I was
browsing the real website, never out of context, but every phrase
had an edit link.  There is a lot to learn from there.

The existing Swedish translation, made by two anonymous editors,
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E./sv
has at least two obvious spelling errors (that any spellchecker
would reveal) and several phrases that just sound stupid.  But
worse than that, since no context is provided I cannot determine
if "Count" is supposed to be the verb or the noun, and if "Total"
is supposed to be the adjective (and what gender) or the noun
(total sum, grand total), so I cannot tell if the current
translations are OK or plain wrong.  I have to flip between the
website and the phrase list, in a very frustrating hunt.  The
first phrase in the list is the longest and hardest ("Discloses
fundraising data while preserving requested donor privacy."), but
I cannot find this phrase in the live user interface.  Since one
of the blatant spelling errors is in that phrase, I see no point
in fixing the spelling error while letting the rest of the overly
complicated phrase stand ("medans donatorns privatliv bevaras"
is worse than child language).

On the website fundraising.wikimedia.org, the first phrase on the
page is "Wikimedia Fundraising C.O.R.E." and I am allowed to
translate "Fundraising C.O.R.E.", but I cannot translate the next
line "Central Online Reporting Engine", so I suppose that phrase
will continue to appear in English?!  And the non-Swedish word
Fundraising is already in the URL, so there is little point in
trying to translate "Fundraising C.O.R.E.".

Judging from the French and Czech translations of the website, the
phrases "Coming soon: RSS feeds and maybe an IRC bot", "We're
working on translating this site into multiple languages. You can
help." and "Languages" still appear in English, as does the
navigation bar with "Gift Policy" and "Old Fundraising Records"

I give up.


--
  Lars Aronsson ([hidden email])
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

KIZU Naoko
Hello, though I am not in charge of this part, but I think it is not
bad to input my idea as non-English speaker & translator.

On 12/19/06, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Aphaia wrote:
>
> > Again, "the pun is one of most difficulties for translation".
> > There are at least two ways to deal with:
>
> C.O.R.E. is not a pun, because it isn't funny.  I'm not laughing
> when I see this user interface and this translation request.
> Most importantly, the translation request on meta doesn't provide
> any context, not even a link back to the website
> fundraising.wikimedia.org.

Now the request page has a link to English page of CORE.


> On the website fundraising.wikimedia.org, the first phrase on the
> page is "Wikimedia Fundraising C.O.R.E." and I am allowed to
> translate "Fundraising C.O.R.E.", but I cannot translate the next
> line "Central Online Reporting Engine", so I suppose that phrase
> will continue to appear in English?!  And the non-Swedish word
> Fundraising is already in the URL, so there is little point in
> trying to translate "Fundraising C.O.R.E.".

Understood. David Strauss, can we change this setting? For non-English
people, roughly half of the users it is not meaningful, I am afraid
too.. At least for Japanese, because the English word "Fundraising" is
an unfamiliar word for ordinary Japanese. I recommend you to give a
chance to translators what they decide to; to leave it or to translate
into their language entirely.

> Judging from the French and Czech translations of the website, the
> phrases "Coming soon: RSS feeds and maybe an IRC bot", "We're
> working on translating this site into multiple languages. You can
> help." and "Languages" still appear in English, as does the
> navigation bar with "Gift Policy" and "Old Fundraising Records"
>
> I give up.

I think I can understand your frustration. It is not only frustrating
but also rather waste of work, because the horizontal navigation
(blue) can be easily filled with [[Wikimedia:Template:Fundraising
menu-xx]] or just asking some additional translations.
"Languages" are better to add to the request list ... David, would you
please consider those additional stuffs?

And I have no idea if it is good or not to represent English with UK
national flag. Is it controvertial for many language communities or
not?
Cheers,
--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Brion Vibber
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Aphaia wrote:
> And I have no idea if it is good or not to represent English with UK
> national flag. Is it controvertial for many language communities or
> not?

Please don't use flags to represent languages, ever.

- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

KIZU Naoko
In reply to this post by Lars Aronsson
On 12/19/06, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Aphaia wrote:
>
> The existing Swedish translation, made by two anonymous editors,
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E./sv
> has at least two obvious spelling errors (that any spellchecker
> would reveal) and several phrases that just sound stupid.

I met a similar case on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E./ja; an anon
created it and tried to help translating (considering on a good faith)
but apparently it was beyond his or her competence - translated three
Japanese phrases' n words were just stupid. Machine translation or
not. I have no idea.Only I can say it is too absurd for us to go it
online. Personally I believe in that things which happened twice would
be repeated unless some element changes drastically.

For C.O.R.E responsibile people, I recommend you to examine each
versions' history carefully and careful if all edits are submitted by
anon. No unproofread version would be welcome unless we are going to
take a risk to look as fools and  illiterate folks to make the CORE
multilingual.

Cheers,
--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

metasj
In reply to this post by Brion Vibber

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Brion Vibber wrote:

> Aphaia wrote:
>> And I have no idea if it is good or not to represent English with UK
>> national flag. Is it controvertial for many language communities or
>> not?
>
> Please don't use flags to represent languages, ever.

Seconded.

It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but can't
recall where.

SJ
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

KIZU Naoko
On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
> represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
> out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but can't
> recall where.

Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...


--
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  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

jmerkey-3
Aphaia wrote:

>On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
>>represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
>>out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but can't
>>recall where.
>>    
>>
>
>Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
>speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...
>
>
>  
>
Aphaia,

Can someone plug in the Cherokee translation I finished. I would like to
read the fundraising results on my native language.

please?

Jeff
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

metasj
In reply to this post by KIZU Naoko
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Aphaia wrote:

> On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
>> represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
>> out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but can't
>> recall where.
>
> Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
> speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...

At least the ISO code letters in latin script.  Perhaps also 2 letters
in a script native to that language, for non-latin languages (at which
point we may not be able to rely on an outside standard and might
be starting a new set of 1- or 2-character abbreviations for languages
in their own script... perhaps we could find a language organization
that wants to take on choosing and maintaining such a collection.)

SJ
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Rory Stolzenberg
In reply to this post by jmerkey-3
On 12/19/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Aphaia wrote:
>
> >On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
> >>represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
> >>out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but
> can't
> >>recall where.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
> >speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Aphaia,
>
> Can someone plug in the Cherokee translation I finished. I would like to
> read the fundraising results on my native language.
>
> please?
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

As I understand it, we can't. The Fundraising CORE is based on [[Drupal]],
which has language packs included (see
http://drupal.org/project/Translations ). The language packs translate about
85% of the site already, and the things translated at [[m:Fundraising
C.O.R.E.]] are just what David Strauss added. If we just instituted that,
most of the site still wouldn't be translated.
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

jmerkey-3
Rory Stolzenberg wrote:

>On 12/19/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Aphaia wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
>>>>represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
>>>>out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but
>>>>        
>>>>
>>can't
>>    
>>
>>>>recall where.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
>>>speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Aphaia,
>>
>>Can someone plug in the Cherokee translation I finished. I would like to
>>read the fundraising results on my native language.
>>
>>please?
>>
>>Jeff
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>>    
>>
>
>As I understand it, we can't. The Fundraising CORE is based on [[Drupal]],
>which has language packs included (see
>http://drupal.org/project/Translations ). The language packs translate about
>85% of the site already, and the things translated at [[m:Fundraising
>C.O.R.E.]] are just what David Strauss added. If we just instituted that,
>most of the site still wouldn't be translated.
>_______________________________________________
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>
>  
>
Ok. Thanks for letting me know. If and when Cherokee ??? makes it into
the language pack, I guess I will see it then ...

Jeff
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by metasj
SJ Klein schreef:

> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Brion Vibber wrote:
>
>  
>> Aphaia wrote:
>>    
>>> And I have no idea if it is good or not to represent English with UK
>>> national flag. Is it controvertial for many language communities or
>>> not?
>>>      
>> Please don't use flags to represent languages, ever.
>>    
>
> Seconded.
>
> It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
> represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
> out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but can't
> recall where.
>
> SJ
Hoi,
Most languages do not have two-letter codes, most are what is called in
the Standard world "alpha three". They are of the ISO-639-2 and
ISO-639-3. All these codes are in lower case. Examples can be found in
some applications that deal with multiple languages.
Thanks,
    GerardM
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Rory Stolzenberg
Hoi,
If a tool is used to support the Wikimedia Foundation that does not
support the languages that MediaWiki supports, the question would be to
what extend is the tool useful when it is severely lacking in the
language support. By the looks of it Drupal supports only a fraction of
the languages that MediaWiki supports.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that we should take the current Drupal
functionality immediately.. that would be expensive :) I am saying that
we need to have a strategy for the other stuff that needs localising.
When we cannot translate into the languages where we have people willing
to help like for Cherokee, the use of Drupal becomes problematic. Do not
suggest that these people are welcome to translate all of Drupal that is
not realistic.

Thanks,
    GerardM


Rory Stolzenberg schreef:

> On 12/19/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> Aphaia wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> On 12/20/06, SJ Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>> It could be neat to have small icons with two-letter codes in them to
>>>> represent each language; they could have color to make them easy to pick
>>>> out of a list.  I feel I've seen a good example of this before, but
>>>>        
>> can't
>>    
>>>> recall where.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> Much better, and in which script? Such letter-codes most of its
>>> speakers are simply unfamiliar might make no sense ...
>> Aphaia,
>>
>> Can someone plug in the Cherokee translation I finished. I would like to
>> read the fundraising results on my native language.
>>
>> please?
>>
>> Jeff
>
> As I understand it, we can't. The Fundraising CORE is based on [[Drupal]],
> which has language packs included (see
> http://drupal.org/project/Translations ). The language packs translate about
> 85% of the site already, and the things translated at [[m:Fundraising
> C.O.R.E.]] are just what David Strauss added. If we just instituted that,
> most of the site still wouldn't be translated.
> _______________________________________________

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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Habj
In reply to this post by Lars Aronsson
2006/12/19, Lars Aronsson <[hidden email]>:

> The existing Swedish translation, made by two anonymous editors,
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fundraising_C.O.R.E./sv
> has at least two obvious spelling errors (that any spellchecker
> would reveal) and several phrases that just sound stupid.  But
> worse than that, since no context is provided I cannot determine
> if "Count" is supposed to be the verb or the noun, and if "Total"
> is supposed to be the adjective (and what gender) or the noun
> (total sum, grand total), so I cannot tell if the current
> translations are OK or plain wrong.  I have to flip between the
> website and the phrase list, in a very frustrating hunt.

Agreed, this is a very bad environment to translate in.

I have not tried to translate that very page (and actually haven't
done that much on these fundraiser translations), but generally one
needs more context than the English originals in themselves give. My
best solution so far is to spend time in the IRC channels and ask
people who, for various reasons, are somewhat informed about what
various things are and how they are supposed to work.

/habj
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Habj
In reply to this post by Brad Patrick
2006/12/18, Brad Patrick <[hidden email]>:
> Most of it
> should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.

I must warn against this attitude. Hardly anything can be translated
with merely a dictionary, lacking context. If one tries, one ends up
with a certain percentage of errors which sometimes just look a little
funny and sometimes look very bad.

/habj
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

jmerkey-3
habj wrote:

>2006/12/18, Brad Patrick <[hidden email]>:
>  
>
>>Most of it
>>should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.
>>    
>>
>
>I must warn against this attitude. Hardly anything can be translated
>with merely a dictionary, lacking context. If one tries, one ends up
>with a certain percentage of errors which sometimes just look a little
>funny and sometimes look very bad.
>
>/habj
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>
>  
>
Very true with Cherokee and native languages, which use particles to
denote complex tensing.

o-s-ti (me and everyone)
tsi (me)
o (everyone)
s-gv (its permanent)
s-di (sustained verb related condition)

Find those in a dictionary.

J
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Re: Translations fundraising.wikimedia.org

Gerard Meijssen-3
In reply to this post by Habj
habj schreef:

> 2006/12/18, Brad Patrick <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> Most of it
>> should be possible to translate with merely a dictionary.
>>    
>
> I must warn against this attitude. Hardly anything can be translated
> with merely a dictionary, lacking context. If one tries, one ends up
> with a certain percentage of errors which sometimes just look a little
> funny and sometimes look very bad.
>
> /habj
Hoi,
Translation with the knowledge of only a dictionary gets you a
translation that is probably not as good as a machine translation. For
material that needs to be just so and this is true for the whole of
marketing / advertisement it PAYS to have proper translations. It even
PAYS to have it done by a professional translator because it is pennies
to the pound. When you have the connections with translators you can
even get these translations for a very reduced rate. It needs however a
proper understanding and approach. I am sure you do not want to have a
translation into English for a message like this on the English language
projects !!

I have been told that a quality translation improves the reach of your
communication by at least 15%.

Thanks,
    GerardM
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