UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

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UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Itzik Edri
Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

James Hare
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Morton
The problem is, that it takes someone to step forward and DO something.

Ed is not a Wikipedian per se, but he has donated a lot of time so far and the question is - do we want a half-assed volunteer attempt plagued by volunteers flaking out etc. Or do we want Wikimania.

If someone objects so strongly to paying people to organise a Wikimania bid then cool; but I'd suggest they have to commit to driving the bid instead :)

With that said; the budget is rather large and I am sure it will be discussed at the meeting tomorrow.

Tom

On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Michael Peel-4
In reply to this post by James Hare
Please note that we're talking about a proposal here, not anything that has been set in stone at this point. WMUK is open to the UK bid team requesting reasonable funds to support a bid, but we have not yet agreed to provide any such funding.

Thanks,
Mike

On 25 Aug 2012, at 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:

Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Itzik Edri
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
This is one thing to "invest" 5,000$ or so for planning process, legal or expert advises - that is reasonable (and others did it without - Haifa, Argentina, DC, Poland..) 64,000$ is not. 

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want. Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic. That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and more focus on location, venue and accomodation. If we can bring the budget down, we also need to focus less on sponsorships etc, which should make the bidding easier and more open to more groups of dedicated volunteers. 

I know other people have a different opinion about it, and would rather make the conference more professional, less risky, more fancy etc. I prefer it to be a lower key community event. 

Lodewijk

2012/8/25 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox

I don't think this is a suitable topic for such a public mailing list at this time, regardless. Hong Kong comes before a bid that hasn't actually been finalised.

Joe

On 25 August 2012 20:46, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want. Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic. That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and more focus on location, venue and accomodation. If we can bring the budget down, we also need to focus less on sponsorships etc, which should make the bidding easier and more open to more groups of dedicated volunteers. 

I know other people have a different opinion about it, and would rather make the conference more professional, less risky, more fancy etc. I prefer it to be a lower key community event. 

Lodewijk

2012/8/25 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Nkansah Rexford
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
About 62, 000$ on Wikimania that last just about 1 week?

That's really huge, I think.

Upcoming chapters around the world will love to enjoy grants and funding from the WMF. Can the WMUK channel some of these lovely dollars into supporting upcoming chapters and WM groups?

If the WMUK hasn't yet finalized that amount for the bid, they I'm sure they're gonna reconsider.

I hope i'm not being nosy in this discussion. :-)

Rexford

On 8/25/2012 7:42 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri [hidden email] wrote:
Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).
To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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About Me

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
Eek, I didn't notice this was the Wikimania list..

Agreed! This is a totally inappropriate venue.

Tom

On 25 August 2012 20:48, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't think this is a suitable topic for such a public mailing list at this time, regardless. Hong Kong comes before a bid that hasn't actually been finalised.

Joe

On 25 August 2012 20:46, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want. Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic. That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and more focus on location, venue and accomodation. If we can bring the budget down, we also need to focus less on sponsorships etc, which should make the bidding easier and more open to more groups of dedicated volunteers. 

I know other people have a different opinion about it, and would rather make the conference more professional, less risky, more fancy etc. I prefer it to be a lower key community event. 

Lodewijk

2012/8/25 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Lodewijk
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
We're talking about bid selection here. I think this is the most suitable list and moment to discuss that - before anyone starts investing time and money in the 2014 bids. For 2013 we already made the choice for the Hong Kong bid, and they should continue organizing it as they presented in their bid. That doesn't discharge us from thinking about the future. 

Lodewijk

2012/8/25 Joseph Fox <[hidden email]>

I don't think this is a suitable topic for such a public mailing list at this time, regardless. Hong Kong comes before a bid that hasn't actually been finalised.

Joe

On 25 August 2012 20:46, Lodewijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want. Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic. That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and more focus on location, venue and accomodation. If we can bring the budget down, we also need to focus less on sponsorships etc, which should make the bidding easier and more open to more groups of dedicated volunteers. 

I know other people have a different opinion about it, and would rather make the conference more professional, less risky, more fancy etc. I prefer it to be a lower key community event. 

Lodewijk

2012/8/25 Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
On 25 August 2012 20:48, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't think this is a suitable topic for such a public mailing list at
> this time, regardless. Hong Kong comes before a bid that hasn't actually
> been finalised.

The 2014 host will be chosen before we all go to Hong Kong, so now
seems like a good time for discussing the 2014 bids...

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Manuel Schneider-3
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
Am 25.08.2012 21:46, schrieb Lodewijk:
> Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want.
> Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a
> bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it be
> more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic. That also
> means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and more focus
> on location, venue and accomodation. If we can bring the budget down, we
> also need to focus less on sponsorships etc, which should make the bidding
> easier and more open to more groups of dedicated volunteers.

this is exactly the point I wanted to make.

Wikimania is not a place to professionalise. Well, a bit, but not too
overly.

The unique thing at Wikimania is the atmosphere. And sorry to say so but
I don't see non-Wikimedians (or "not Wikimedians per se") making a great
Wikimania. That just doesn't work.
That does not mean you are not allowed to hire a production company to
make your life easier but it means that the core team and the project
manager are true full-hearted Wikimedians.
There are plenty of them out there. We don't need six bids for Wikimania
each year. We don't need chapters bidding for Wikimania because having
done a Wikimania puts them in a certain level. As was said before,
Wikimania is not the Olympic Games or the Soccer World Championship.

/Manuel
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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
On 25 August 2012 20:51, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Eek, I didn't notice this was the Wikimania list..
>
> Agreed! This is a totally inappropriate venue.

This is a general discussion about what kind of money it is reasonable
to spend on the Wikimania bid. That discussion is relevant to far more
than just WMUK, so why should the discussion to restricted to UK fora?

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
...On this list? I don't think so. Unless we also want to poke our noses into Bukittinggi and Sydney's potential finances as well?

Joe

On 25 August 2012 20:51, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:48, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't think this is a suitable topic for such a public mailing list at
> this time, regardless. Hong Kong comes before a bid that hasn't actually
> been finalised.

The 2014 host will be chosen before we all go to Hong Kong, so now
seems like a good time for discussing the 2014 bids...

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Nathan Awrich
I hope the committee that evaluates bids looks for communities of Wikimedians who are prepared to host Wikimania. A big check does not a community make, and no amount of spending of donors money will replace actual Wikimedians with the interest and desire in hosting Wikimania. 
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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:08, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I hope the committee that evaluates bids looks for communities of Wikimedians who are prepared to host Wikimania. A big check does not a community make, and no amount of spending of donors money will replace actual Wikimedians with the interest and desire in hosting Wikimania. 
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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

theo10011
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
I am surprised at the reaction here. Is it so necessary for UK to have a bid or a winning bid at that, that you are willing to break convention, and spend this huge amount on a paid bid.

This is unfair. I don't know the history about the bidding process, but bids that I saw were written by volunteers, some with or without a chapters support, or even knowledge in some cases. What about competing bids, since they can't afford to hire a team to just make a bid that won't be on equal footing, should they just not bother? or ask for the same grant?

What if the UK still loses the bid? that would be donor money down the drain. If WMUK members personally finance this, it is one thing, but using this much money raised in the name of Wikipedia, to finance a bid for a single chapter to host the annual volunteer-run conference, seems very irresponsible, and antithetical to the entire spirit of a volunteer-run event.

Regards
Theo

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
Would would money even buy at the bidding stage? Absolutely nothing, unless you count the venue?

When did the DC team book their venue? How much was it? (Guessing they got it for nothing, but probably wrong)

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:10, Theo10011 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am surprised at the reaction here. Is it so necessary for UK to have a bid or a winning bid at that, that you are willing to break convention, and spend this huge amount on a paid bid.

This is unfair. I don't know the history about the bidding process, but bids that I saw were written by volunteers, some with or without a chapters support, or even knowledge in some cases. What about competing bids, since they can't afford to hire a team to just make a bid that won't be on equal footing, should they just not bother? or ask for the same grant?

What if the UK still loses the bid? that would be donor money down the drain. If WMUK members personally finance this, it is one thing, but using this much money raised in the name of Wikipedia, to finance a bid for a single chapter to host the annual volunteer-run conference, seems very irresponsible, and antithetical to the entire spirit of a volunteer-run event.

Regards
Theo

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Nathan Awrich
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

Joe


Who said it should be written off? I just think that if the bid is developed by a professional with a big budget, rather than by actual Wikimedians, that's an indication that (as Tom Morton suggested) there isn't an active group of Wikimedians who support it. The bid evaluation team should take that into account. It's perfectly possible, of course, that the UK will mount a normal bid and be quite successful.

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