UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Manuel Schneider-3
Am 25.08.2012 22:10, schrieb Joseph Fox:
> To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while
> it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city
> in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

from my experience on the Wikimania Jury I can assure you that it is
pretty much taken into account how much Wikimania experience the bidding
team has and how much the understand to make a Wikimania as Wikimania is.

/Manuel
--
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Manuel Schneider

Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge
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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
A lot of the WMUK board members were at Wikimania in DC. They're all passionate Wikimedians, I can assure you.

Joe


On 25 August 2012 21:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

Joe


Who said it should be written off? I just think that if the bid is developed by a professional with a big budget, rather than by actual Wikimedians, that's an indication that (as Tom Morton suggested) there isn't an active group of Wikimedians who support it. The bid evaluation team should take that into account. It's perfectly possible, of course, that the UK will mount a normal bid and be quite successful.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

James Hare
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
We had booked GWU by early November 2011.

The cost of the space was far from free, let me tell you. (That said, it was still heavily discounted.)

On Aug 25, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Joseph Fox wrote:

Would would money even buy at the bidding stage? Absolutely nothing, unless you count the venue?

When did the DC team book their venue? How much was it? (Guessing they got it for nothing, but probably wrong)

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:10, Theo10011 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am surprised at the reaction here. Is it so necessary for UK to have a bid or a winning bid at that, that you are willing to break convention, and spend this huge amount on a paid bid.

This is unfair. I don't know the history about the bidding process, but bids that I saw were written by volunteers, some with or without a chapters support, or even knowledge in some cases. What about competing bids, since they can't afford to hire a team to just make a bid that won't be on equal footing, should they just not bother? or ask for the same grant?

What if the UK still loses the bid? that would be donor money down the drain. If WMUK members personally finance this, it is one thing, but using this much money raised in the name of Wikipedia, to finance a bid for a single chapter to host the annual volunteer-run conference, seems very irresponsible, and antithetical to the entire spirit of a volunteer-run event.

Regards
Theo

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
In reply to this post by Manuel Schneider-3
I understand this. But people here seem to have seen that they'll be making up a financial plan for the event, then announcing that there is no raw passion underneath the money. I'm just telling you that there are a lot of very active and very passionate Wikimedians in the UK looking to make the best possible event.

Also remembering that Brits are all tightfisted, of course, so they'll not be silly with their money ;)

(Also, James, my apologies for the assumption. I wonder if WMUK will be able to negotiate such a discount...)

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:15, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am <a href="tel:25.08.2012%2022" value="+12508201222">25.08.2012 22:10, schrieb Joseph Fox:
> To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while
> it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city
> in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

from my experience on the Wikimania Jury I can assure you that it is
pretty much taken into account how much Wikimania experience the bidding
team has and how much the understand to make a Wikimania as Wikimania is.

/Manuel
--
Regards
Manuel Schneider

Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge
www.wikimedia.ch

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

theo10011
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:43 AM, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would would money even buy at the bidding stage? Absolutely nothing, unless you count the venue?

When did the DC team book their venue? How much was it? (Guessing they got it for nothing, but probably wrong)


I'm not sure I follow, but, your assumption here is that the amount would pay for the venue, even before it is decided which city would host the conference? Again, wouldn't every bidding city needed to be afforded the same privilege? or is there actually a reason why the UK bid would be special?

Do I really need to point to Meta and every past wikimania budget, which hardly ever required an upfront amount for the venue, even before a venue was decided, or a bid was considered.

Regards
Theo

 
Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:10, Theo10011 <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am surprised at the reaction here. Is it so necessary for UK to have a bid or a winning bid at that, that you are willing to break convention, and spend this huge amount on a paid bid.

This is unfair. I don't know the history about the bidding process, but bids that I saw were written by volunteers, some with or without a chapters support, or even knowledge in some cases. What about competing bids, since they can't afford to hire a team to just make a bid that won't be on equal footing, should they just not bother? or ask for the same grant?

What if the UK still loses the bid? that would be donor money down the drain. If WMUK members personally finance this, it is one thing, but using this much money raised in the name of Wikipedia, to finance a bid for a single chapter to host the annual volunteer-run conference, seems very irresponsible, and antithetical to the entire spirit of a volunteer-run event.

Regards
Theo

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 20:28, Itzik Edri <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just
> can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will
> follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).

To be clear, that plan is still in draft, and that particular item has
received plenty of opposition.

I am in favour of spending money on bids - it is necessary if we want
to get professional quality bids. I am not in favour of spending that
kind of money on bids, though.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by Nathan Awrich
On 25 August 2012 21:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

Joe


Who said it should be written off? I just think that if the bid is developed by a professional with a big budget,

That's not a good way to describe the situation. I was unaware which list we were talking on - assuming that it was the UK discussion list where people are aware of the setup we have.

rather than by actual Wikimedians, that's an indication that (as Tom Morton suggested) there isn't an active group of Wikimedians who support it.

Far from it; there are a lot of active Wikimedians deeply involved in the process. But, as noted, volunteers tend to flit around and miss deadlines :)

Ed, who is the guy involved, has put a lot of his own (volunteer) time in so far - he is reallyu into the process, and brings experience and contacts.

But this is really a little too specific for a public list. I'd welcome a discussion about bid budgets etc. but without reference to one (of several) entirely undecided budget idea.

Tom

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
I'm sorry, guys, I think I'm guilty of not reading up properly on this - apparently the £40,000 is just for the bid? Clarification from someone at WMUK please?

I think surely that's an estimate on total cost that's been misquoted...

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:25, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 August 2012 21:13, Nathan <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
To be honest I'm rather offended that the UK bid is being written off while it's still 2014. I agree with you, but London is far from the cheapest city in the world, as I'm sure you're aware - money will be required.

Joe


Who said it should be written off? I just think that if the bid is developed by a professional with a big budget,

That's not a good way to describe the situation. I was unaware which list we were talking on - assuming that it was the UK discussion list where people are aware of the setup we have.

rather than by actual Wikimedians, that's an indication that (as Tom Morton suggested) there isn't an active group of Wikimedians who support it.

Far from it; there are a lot of active Wikimedians deeply involved in the process. But, as noted, volunteers tend to flit around and miss deadlines :)

Ed, who is the guy involved, has put a lot of his own (volunteer) time in so far - he is reallyu into the process, and brings experience and contacts.

But this is really a little too specific for a public list. I'd welcome a discussion about bid budgets etc. but without reference to one (of several) entirely undecided budget idea.

Tom

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Morton


On 25 August 2012 21:31, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sorry, guys, I think I'm guilty of not reading up properly on this - apparently the £40,000 is just for the bid? Clarification from someone at WMUK please?

I think surely that's an estimate on total cost that's been misquoted...

Joe

It's one of several very early suggestions (in this case - as part of a much broader discussion of next years budget).

Nothing has been decided - or even discussed - at this stage.

Tom

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Joseph Fox
Gotcha. Thanks for that, Tom.

Joe

On 25 August 2012 21:33, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 25 August 2012 21:31, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sorry, guys, I think I'm guilty of not reading up properly on this - apparently the £40,000 is just for the bid? Clarification from someone at WMUK please?

I think surely that's an estimate on total cost that's been misquoted...

Joe

It's one of several very early suggestions (in this case - as part of a much broader discussion of next years budget).

Nothing has been decided - or even discussed - at this stage.

Tom

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Joseph Fox
On 25 August 2012 21:31, Joseph Fox <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm sorry, guys, I think I'm guilty of not reading up properly on this -
> apparently the £40,000 is just for the bid? Clarification from someone at
> WMUK please?
>
> I think surely that's an estimate on total cost that's been misquoted...

No misquote. The proposal is to spend that on the bid. In fact, the
original proposal was to spend that on the last three months of the
bid (since the WMUK financial year starts in February and the decision
will be made in April), although it has been suggested that the timing
could be adjusted so the money would come out of this year's budget.

You can see the bid committee's proposed budget here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqB4pGmDm24SdEZCS0xIdVk2dC0wTllmVVA4b1BZR2c#gid=0

As you can see, it actually adds up to £62.5k ($98.8k) and most of
that is going on paying the bid committee themselves.

I'm confident the board will not approve that proposal, although I am
disappointed that they didn't reject it as soon as it was proposed but
have let discussions about it continue until their board meeting.

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Nicholas Michael Bashour
Wikimania is not cheap, I quite agree, and there is tremendous value to the community and future partners in having a professional and exciting event. I did not read this thread as people concerned about the cost of Wikimania, but rather the costs of the bid itself. Washington, DC, is quite an expensive city, and the total amount of money spent on the bid was exactly $0. Spending money on a conference is investing. Spending money on a bid is gambling. 

If an organization has to spend money to convince a committee of volunteers that Wikimania should take place under its care, then it already started off on the wrong foot. I think London is a fantastic place for a conference, with lots of museums, libraries, and potential partners. It could very well win the bid without any money spent on putting it together, especially since it's pretty much a retool of last year's bid. I hope that the board decides to hold the money allocated for the bid to use towards Wikimania, like for scholarships, as opposed to just on the bid itself. 

--

Nicholas Michael Bashour

President | Wikimedia District of Columbia

PO Box 9822  Washington, DC  20016

+1 (313) 377 - 4589|@NMichaelBashour|[hidden email]

 

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Sven Manguard
This has tainted my opinion of WMUK as an organization. Opposed or not, that this even made it into a draft is appalling. Quite simply put, if we get into the habit of expensive, aggressive, Olympics/World Cup style bidding wars, we're going to shut poorer counties and countries without strong fundraising chapters out of the process, and Wikimania and the movement will suffer for it. 

Sven



On Aug 25, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Nicholas Michael Bashour <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wikimania is not cheap, I quite agree, and there is tremendous value to the community and future partners in having a professional and exciting event. I did not read this thread as people concerned about the cost of Wikimania, but rather the costs of the bid itself. Washington, DC, is quite an expensive city, and the total amount of money spent on the bid was exactly $0. Spending money on a conference is investing. Spending money on a bid is gambling. 

If an organization has to spend money to convince a committee of volunteers that Wikimania should take place under its care, then it already started off on the wrong foot. I think London is a fantastic place for a conference, with lots of museums, libraries, and potential partners. It could very well win the bid without any money spent on putting it together, especially since it's pretty much a retool of last year's bid. I hope that the board decides to hold the money allocated for the bid to use towards Wikimania, like for scholarships, as opposed to just on the bid itself. 

--

Nicholas Michael Bashour

President | Wikimedia District of Columbia

PO Box 9822  Washington, DC  20016

+1 (313) 377 - 4589|@NMichaelBashour|[hidden email]

 
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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Katie Chan
On 26/08/2012 05:28, Sven wrote:
> This has tainted my opinion of WMUK as an organization. Opposed or not,
> that this even made it into a draft is appalling. Quite simply put, if
> we get into the habit of expensive, aggressive, Olympics/World Cup style
> bidding wars, we're going to shut poorer counties and countries without
> strong fundraising chapters out of the process, and Wikimania and the
> movement will suffer for it.
>

Tinted your opinion because we do things in a open transparent way where
everyone in the world can see, that different people involved have
different ideas of what's right and we don't outright reject every idea
because it's different? If that's the Wikimedia movement that exist,
I'll rather not be part of it.

KTC

--
Experience is a good school but the fees are high.
     - Heinrich Heine

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Deror Avi
In reply to this post by Itzik Edri
I agree with what was said by Manuel.
I am in favour of larger events (we do not stop people from writing in Wikipedia, and all who can afford it should come to wikimania).
I am in favour of professional events - where schedule is kept, and Wifi is working, and food is tasty and sufficient.
All a good bid needs in the first stage is to describe a good venue (which is well located near cheep dorms and reasonable hotels). No money is required for that. At the second stage the bid should include a reasonable budget – for that all that is required is a list of quotes form companies – again – no cost is needed.
I am against wasting donors money.
In my personal opinion, the best bid is done by legwork (going to see the venue and places around it), writing letters and having meeting. This can be done by volunteers.
So my personal opinion is that the bid should cost 0$.
At most - have the chapter pay for public transportation for going to the meetings.
But what do I know.
Deror
 

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by James Hare
I agree that it would be wrong for chapter money to go into Wikimania bids, especially as some bid teams have access to resources that others don't. However London lost the last bid against  Hong Kong partly because it was deemed not to have "solid support from the chapter". Considering how much support there was from the chapter it would be difficult to see how the UK chapter could give more solid support without supplying paid staff time. So the logical response to the jury's decision http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2012-May/003491.html is to budget for more solid support from the chapter.

If the Jury had said that both bids were very good , but for 2013 it was really time for another Wikimania in the Far East then we'd be in a different situation. 

WSC 



On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

HJ Mitchell
Right, let me be quite blunt. This thread is not "undiplomatic", it's an attempt to meddle in the affairs of other chapters, which do not concern you. how would you have liked it if I was trashing the Haifa or DC bids before they were even anything as formal as bids?

As to "my opinion of WMUK has been tainted", let me again be very blunt. You have clearly not read the documents linked, or not understood what you were looking at. You are looking at suggestions. We are exploring a variety of options, none of which have been discussed or approved. Now, as WSC says, last year's bid failed partly because of insufficient support from  the chapter, so this year, there is a *suggestion* in a *draft* budget to *earmark* *up to* £40k for the bid. That doesn't mean that £40k *will* be allocated, nor that, if it is allocated, the whole £40k will be spent. In fact, I think it's very unlikely we will find anything to spend that kind of money on in just the bidding stage, but that's why it's called a *draft*. You can't criticise the chapter for offering financial support when it was criticised last year for not providing financial support.

Now kindly keep your noses out of other people's business.

(I should probably point out that I'm not speaking on behalf of WMUK)

Thank you,

Harry Mitchell
Phone: 024 7698 0977
Skype: harry_j_mitchell


From: WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2012, 12:34
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

I agree that it would be wrong for chapter money to go into Wikimania bids, especially as some bid teams have access to resources that others don't. However London lost the last bid against  Hong Kong partly because it was deemed not to have "solid support from the chapter". Considering how much support there was from the chapter it would be difficult to see how the UK chapter could give more solid support without supplying paid staff time. So the logical response to the jury's decision http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2012-May/003491.html is to budget for more solid support from the chapter.

If the Jury had said that both bids were very good , but for 2013 it was really time for another Wikimania in the Far East then we'd be in a different situation. 

WSC 



On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
On 26 August 2012 13:37, HJ Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Right, let me be quite blunt. This thread is not "undiplomatic", it's an
> attempt to meddle in the affairs of other chapters, which do not concern
> you. how would you have liked it if I was trashing the Haifa or DC bids
> before they were even anything as formal as bids?

How is it not of concern to the rest of the movement how £40k of
movement funds is spent?

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Itzik Edri
In reply to this post by HJ Mitchell
Harry,

That's exactly our problem in the movement - that it seem like everyone can do whatever he want. But it's no.

The money, even if only part of him coming from the fundraising - is movement money. And if Wikimedia Israel is spending money for nothing, this is not only my concern - but something that everyone in the movement need to care, if we want future for our movement.

This is not the place, and this is not the right place - and I'm not meaning that WMUK are spending money unwittingly or not in modestly, like we need to do - but this is happen in the movement, but unfortunately there is also a trend of uncontrolled swelling budget, within the chapters, and also within the WMF.

But this is not the issue, the issue is the future and the kind of Wikimania as a community project, and the balance of power between the third Chapter in his budget size and other volunteer groups that are supposed to compete in the bid. It's one thing (and ok) if the Chapter staff invest there time on a bid, but it's something else to spend that amount of resources. Even if at the end it will be half of it, or a quarter of it. Even five thousand pounds, this huge amount compared to what others have invested so far.

Itzik

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:37 PM, HJ Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:
Right, let me be quite blunt. This thread is not "undiplomatic", it's an attempt to meddle in the affairs of other chapters, which do not concern you. how would you have liked it if I was trashing the Haifa or DC bids before they were even anything as formal as bids?

As to "my opinion of WMUK has been tainted", let me again be very blunt. You have clearly not read the documents linked, or not understood what you were looking at. You are looking at suggestions. We are exploring a variety of options, none of which have been discussed or approved. Now, as WSC says, last year's bid failed partly because of insufficient support from  the chapter, so this year, there is a *suggestion* in a *draft* budget to *earmark* *up to* £40k for the bid. That doesn't mean that £40k *will* be allocated, nor that, if it is allocated, the whole £40k will be spent. In fact, I think it's very unlikely we will find anything to spend that kind of money on in just the bidding stage, but that's why it's called a *draft*. You can't criticise the chapter for offering financial support when it was criticised last year for not providing financial support.

Now kindly keep your noses out of other people's business.

(I should probably point out that I'm not speaking on behalf of WMUK)

Thank you,

Harry Mitchell
Phone: 024 7698 0977
Skype: harry_j_mitchell


From: WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2012, 12:34
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

I agree that it would be wrong for chapter money to go into Wikimania bids, especially as some bid teams have access to resources that others don't. However London lost the last bid against  Hong Kong partly because it was deemed not to have "solid support from the chapter". Considering how much support there was from the chapter it would be difficult to see how the UK chapter could give more solid support without supplying paid staff time. So the logical response to the jury's decision http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2012-May/003491.html is to budget for more solid support from the chapter.

If the Jury had said that both bids were very good , but for 2013 it was really time for another Wikimania in the Far East then we'd be in a different situation. 

WSC 



On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Osmar Valdebenito
Of course, this IS something the whole community can and should discuss. It is about the future of Wikimania as a volunteer-driven event.
WM-UK spending £40,000 is unfair for other future bids (did you know that most of the chapters have less than £40,000 for the whole annual budget?) and a terrible way of wasting money. WSC said that Hong Kong defeated London for 2013 because they had a more "solid support by the local Wikimedia Chapter", but Hong Kong spent 'zero'. Spending more money is futile and, in fact, gives me the opposite idea -- that the chapter is so uncommitted to the project that they need to hire people to do what others do on their free time.

I hope WM-UK will reject the idea after all these opinions (and probably also those in their internal channels)... and now I'll try to keep my nose in my own business, I suppose.

2012/8/26 Itzik Edri <[hidden email]>
Harry,

That's exactly our problem in the movement - that it seem like everyone can do whatever he want. But it's no.

The money, even if only part of him coming from the fundraising - is movement money. And if Wikimedia Israel is spending money for nothing, this is not only my concern - but something that everyone in the movement need to care, if we want future for our movement.

This is not the place, and this is not the right place - and I'm not meaning that WMUK are spending money unwittingly or not in modestly, like we need to do - but this is happen in the movement, but unfortunately there is also a trend of uncontrolled swelling budget, within the chapters, and also within the WMF.

But this is not the issue, the issue is the future and the kind of Wikimania as a community project, and the balance of power between the third Chapter in his budget size and other volunteer groups that are supposed to compete in the bid. It's one thing (and ok) if the Chapter staff invest there time on a bid, but it's something else to spend that amount of resources. Even if at the end it will be half of it, or a quarter of it. Even five thousand pounds, this huge amount compared to what others have invested so far.

Itzik


On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:37 PM, HJ Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:
Right, let me be quite blunt. This thread is not "undiplomatic", it's an attempt to meddle in the affairs of other chapters, which do not concern you. how would you have liked it if I was trashing the Haifa or DC bids before they were even anything as formal as bids?

As to "my opinion of WMUK has been tainted", let me again be very blunt. You have clearly not read the documents linked, or not understood what you were looking at. You are looking at suggestions. We are exploring a variety of options, none of which have been discussed or approved. Now, as WSC says, last year's bid failed partly because of insufficient support from  the chapter, so this year, there is a *suggestion* in a *draft* budget to *earmark* *up to* £40k for the bid. That doesn't mean that £40k *will* be allocated, nor that, if it is allocated, the whole £40k will be spent. In fact, I think it's very unlikely we will find anything to spend that kind of money on in just the bidding stage, but that's why it's called a *draft*. You can't criticise the chapter for offering financial support when it was criticised last year for not providing financial support.

Now kindly keep your noses out of other people's business.

(I should probably point out that I'm not speaking on behalf of WMUK)

Thank you,

Harry Mitchell
Phone: 024 7698 0977
Skype: harry_j_mitchell


From: WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2012, 12:34
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

I agree that it would be wrong for chapter money to go into Wikimania bids, especially as some bid teams have access to resources that others don't. However London lost the last bid against  Hong Kong partly because it was deemed not to have "solid support from the chapter". Considering how much support there was from the chapter it would be difficult to see how the UK chapter could give more solid support without supplying paid staff time. So the logical response to the jury's decision http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2012-May/003491.html is to budget for more solid support from the chapter.

If the Jury had said that both bids were very good , but for 2013 it was really time for another Wikimania in the Far East then we'd be in a different situation. 

WSC 



On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Sven Manguard
In reply to this post by HJ Mitchell
All of those qualifiers are nice, but the fact that it made it onto a draft at all is the issue. This was something that never should have made it that far. Lots of things get killed off in committee and never make it on paper. I'd be one thing if this was a transcript of the minutes, and it mentioned that it was brought up and promptly shelved. It's another thing entirely to have it get as far as a working document.

Wikipedia discussion boards regularly shoot down dangerous and stupid ideas before they make it very far. That's a good thing, it means that the project's defensive filters are working. 

The idea of spending 40K or even 10K on a bid is a dangerous and stupid idea, and my respect for WMUK took a hit because you all let it get way too far. Kill it now.

Oh, and if you're pissed that people from other chapters are tearing WMUK a new one over this (i.e. meddling in your chapter's affairs), that should a) be an indication of how awful the idea being discussed is, and b) has a lot to do with that this discussion is taking place on Wikimania-l, a list subscribed to by large swaths of the movement, including those outside the UK. Don't want criticism? Keep it internal.

Sven 

On Aug 26, 2012, at 8:37 AM, HJ Mitchell <[hidden email]> wrote:

Right, let me be quite blunt. This thread is not "undiplomatic", it's an attempt to meddle in the affairs of other chapters, which do not concern you. how would you have liked it if I was trashing the Haifa or DC bids before they were even anything as formal as bids?

As to "my opinion of WMUK has been tainted", let me again be very blunt. You have clearly not read the documents linked, or not understood what you were looking at. You are looking at suggestions. We are exploring a variety of options, none of which have been discussed or approved. Now, as WSC says, last year's bid failed partly because of insufficient support from  the chapter, so this year, there is a *suggestion* in a *draft* budget to *earmark* *up to* £40k for the bid. That doesn't mean that £40k *will* be allocated, nor that, if it is allocated, the whole £40k will be spent. In fact, I think it's very unlikely we will find anything to spend that kind of money on in just the bidding stage, but that's why it's called a *draft*. You can't criticise the chapter for offering financial support when it was criticised last year for not providing financial support.

Now kindly keep your noses out of other people's business.

(I should probably point out that I'm not speaking on behalf of WMUK)

Thank you,

Harry Mitchell
Phone: 024 7698 0977
Skype: harry_j_mitchell


From: WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]>
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2012, 12:34
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

I agree that it would be wrong for chapter money to go into Wikimania bids, especially as some bid teams have access to resources that others don't. However London lost the last bid against  Hong Kong partly because it was deemed not to have "solid support from the chapter". Considering how much support there was from the chapter it would be difficult to see how the UK chapter could give more solid support without supplying paid staff time. So the logical response to the jury's decision http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimania-l/2012-May/003491.html is to budget for more solid support from the chapter.

If the Jury had said that both bids were very good , but for 2013 it was really time for another Wikimania in the Far East then we'd be in a different situation. 

WSC 



On 25 August 2012 20:32, James Hare <[hidden email]> wrote:
Staffing is a very good thing to spend money on—while executing the conference. Spending $62,000 on staff for a bid would be worth the investment if bidding for Wikimania were anything like bidding for the Olympics, but it is not. The spirit of Wikimania is ultimately from its volunteer leadership, and if the Wikimedia UK volunteers cannot muster that spirit to run their own bid, they have no hope and no soul.


James


On Aug 25, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Itzik Edri wrote:

Sorry, it's undiplomatic to interfere with others budget plans - but I just can't ignore how the future of Wikimania will look like if others will follow UK plans to invest £40,000 only for the bid process (about 62,000$).


"Hire a production company for half of this cost. It's really waste of donors money, for what we expect to be done by volunteers, or for a minimum costs. If every one who going to bid for Wikimania will spent this amount of money (and why them not? if UK can, why others not?), it's mean that for 4 places every year we are "spending" more than 260,000$ only for the bid!!!. --217.132.1.140 19:22, 25 August 2012 (UTC)"

I really think the "Wikimania" groups need to speak about that. It's the first time a group/chapter spending such amount of money for bid, and it's open a door for next cities to do the same - with money which can uses to invest in Wikimania itself.


Itzik

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