UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
67 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

WereSpielChequers-2
There is a risk of people adding too much into Wikimanias. I've been to three Wikimania events and the most lost people I met were not those editors who were at their first event - they fitted in well. The most lost people I met were those who hadn't started editing yet. I'm very happy to make time for such people, and in London we are holding events to introduce potential editors to Wikimedia. But I don't think that such events are  a natural fit with wikimania, and I would suggest that we not promote Wikimania to non-editors. Nor do I think that we should aim for Wikimania to be an event for the press. Yes if there are journalists who are interested and want to come by all means let them. Though I've yet to meet a journalist who doesn't feel that they have some sort of professional duty to out any Wikimedian they report on. But we shouldn't let Wikimania become some sort of media event, though it will be difficult to avoid producing any press releases from a Wikimania. An inwardly focussed event that doesn't try to "raise its media profile" would be better than one that considers press coverage to be a measure of its success.

As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues. We just need to make sure that the facilities and budget accommodation are as cheap as London (or elsewhere near Heathrow) is capable of. But with the greying of the pedia we need to cater both for those whose idea of basic accommodation is  a room with a bed and for those who are looking for somewhere they can stretch out a sleeping bag.

One economy we can make based on last years Indian conference is that we don't need WiFi everywhere. A designated WiFi free zone with coffee is a useful part of a large meetup and it should save money if you can tell the WiFi provider to designate the hardest coffee area to provide WiFi for as a   WiFi free zone.

What I'd like to see in a Wikimania bid is a commitment for e-involvement and making things as multilingual as practical. We could do this by working with chapters and other local groups so that for topics that people want to get involved in we repeat the session online and in requested languages with a translator working with the presenter.

WSC 

On 27 August 2012 08:55, Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 08/25/2012 09:46 PM, Lodewijk wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want.
Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a
bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it
be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic.

I concur and I'm glad you brought this topic up.

Wikimedians are not professionals, they are volunteers. Our community /is/ chaotic and a bit unorganized. It's fine if Wikimania reflects that.


That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and
more focus on location, venue and accomodation.

We should also focus on making Wikimania more affordable. If that means choosing cheaper locations that might be a bit less spectacular, that's fine with me. I've always thought the charm of Wikimania stems from its participants and not a particular venue.

Manuel (among others) is organizing WikiCon 2012, which will start in a few days in Austria. The fee is only 10 Euro for the full conference (three days), and that even includes meals and a place to sleep in a gym.
Last year's WikiCon was fantastic even though there was not an exotic venue, a beach party, a wonderful port or a disco night in the center of a large city. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy such events, nor that they aren't parts of the positive memory I have of past Wikimanias, but expensive and exotic events and locations should not be considered a "must" for future Wikimanias.

Regards,
Tobias

Ps.: The WikiCon conference for german-speaking countries is a great example of an event between the magnitude of million-dollar-events like Wikimania and zero-dollar local community meetups. They work great, help to get to know each other in real life (and to sort out differences) as well as exchanging ideas and bringing the movement forward. You should have a WikiCon in your country, too!


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Béria Lima
Just one small detail:

As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues

Lets remember that London isn't alone in that. If the Wikimania is Europe - does not mind if is in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy Germany, Poland or the european part of Russia - the travel cost will be as cheap for other European residents.
_____
Béria Lima

Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho.<span onmouseout="cancel = false; window.setTimeout(WRCHideContent, 1000); clearTimeout(showTimer);" onmouseover=" var self = this; showTimer = window.setTimeout(function(){WRCShowContent({&#39;rating&#39;:{&#39;value&#39;:-1,&#39;weight&#39;:-1},&#39;flags&#39;:{},&#39;single&#39;:true,&#39;ttl&#39;:7200,&#39;expireTime&#39;:&#39;20120826185203&#39;}, self.className)},600);" class="wrc0" style="padding-right:16px;width:16px;height:16px">


On 27 August 2012 06:01, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a risk of people adding too much into Wikimanias. I've been to three Wikimania events and the most lost people I met were not those editors who were at their first event - they fitted in well. The most lost people I met were those who hadn't started editing yet. I'm very happy to make time for such people, and in London we are holding events to introduce potential editors to Wikimedia. But I don't think that such events are  a natural fit with wikimania, and I would suggest that we not promote Wikimania to non-editors. Nor do I think that we should aim for Wikimania to be an event for the press. Yes if there are journalists who are interested and want to come by all means let them. Though I've yet to meet a journalist who doesn't feel that they have some sort of professional duty to out any Wikimedian they report on. But we shouldn't let Wikimania become some sort of media event, though it will be difficult to avoid producing any press releases from a Wikimania. An inwardly focussed event that doesn't try to "raise its media profile" would be better than one that considers press coverage to be a measure of its success.

As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues. We just need to make sure that the facilities and budget accommodation are as cheap as London (or elsewhere near Heathrow) is capable of. But with the greying of the pedia we need to cater both for those whose idea of basic accommodation is  a room with a bed and for those who are looking for somewhere they can stretch out a sleeping bag.

One economy we can make based on last years Indian conference is that we don't need WiFi everywhere. A designated WiFi free zone with coffee is a useful part of a large meetup and it should save money if you can tell the WiFi provider to designate the hardest coffee area to provide WiFi for as a   WiFi free zone.

What I'd like to see in a Wikimania bid is a commitment for e-involvement and making things as multilingual as practical. We could do this by working with chapters and other local groups so that for topics that people want to get involved in we repeat the session online and in requested languages with a translator working with the presenter.

WSC 


On 27 August 2012 08:55, Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 08/25/2012 09:46 PM, Lodewijk wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want.
Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a
bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it
be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic.

I concur and I'm glad you brought this topic up.

Wikimedians are not professionals, they are volunteers. Our community /is/ chaotic and a bit unorganized. It's fine if Wikimania reflects that.


That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and
more focus on location, venue and accomodation.

We should also focus on making Wikimania more affordable. If that means choosing cheaper locations that might be a bit less spectacular, that's fine with me. I've always thought the charm of Wikimania stems from its participants and not a particular venue.

Manuel (among others) is organizing WikiCon 2012, which will start in a few days in Austria. The fee is only 10 Euro for the full conference (three days), and that even includes meals and a place to sleep in a gym.
Last year's WikiCon was fantastic even though there was not an exotic venue, a beach party, a wonderful port or a disco night in the center of a large city. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy such events, nor that they aren't parts of the positive memory I have of past Wikimanias, but expensive and exotic events and locations should not be considered a "must" for future Wikimanias.

Regards,
Tobias

Ps.: The WikiCon conference for german-speaking countries is a great example of an event between the magnitude of million-dollar-events like Wikimania and zero-dollar local community meetups. They work great, help to get to know each other in real life (and to sort out differences) as well as exchanging ideas and bringing the movement forward. You should have a WikiCon in your country, too!


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l<span onmouseout="cancel = false; window.setTimeout(WRCHideContent, 1000); clearTimeout(showTimer);" onmouseover=" var self = this; showTimer = window.setTimeout(function(){WRCShowContent({&#39;rating&#39;:{&#39;value&#39;:-1,&#39;weight&#39;:0},&#39;flags&#39;:{},&#39;single&#39;:true,&#39;ttl&#39;:7200,&#39;expireTime&#39;:&#39;20120826152532&#39;}, self.className)},600);" class="wrc0" style="padding-right:16px;width:16px;height:16px">


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l<span onmouseout="cancel = false; window.setTimeout(WRCHideContent, 1000); clearTimeout(showTimer);" onmouseover=" var self = this; showTimer = window.setTimeout(function(){WRCShowContent({&#39;rating&#39;:{&#39;value&#39;:-1,&#39;weight&#39;:0},&#39;flags&#39;:{},&#39;single&#39;:true,&#39;ttl&#39;:7200,&#39;expireTime&#39;:&#39;20120826152532&#39;}, self.className)},600);" class="wrc0" style="padding-right:16px;width:16px;height:16px">



_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Dalton
On 28 August 2012 00:41, Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be
>> the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there
>> London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues
>
> Lets remember that London isn't alone in that. If the Wikimania is Europe -
> does not mind if is in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy Germany, Poland or the
> european part of Russia - the travel cost will be as cheap for other
> European residents.

However, for people attending from outside Europe, London is a lot
cheaper than most places to get to due to being a major hub. To get to
a lot of places in Europe from outside Europe, your cheapest route is
often to go via London. (Paris and Frankfurt are also major hubs, but
the other countries you mention would generally be more expensive to
get to.)

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Béria Lima
Actually from South America, all flights I see (and believe me, I took that route several times, being the last one in January this year) goes by Madrid, Lisbon or Roma, and the cheapest one to / from Brasil, goes to Barcelona.
_____
Béria Lima

Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho.<span onmouseout="cancel = false; window.setTimeout(WRCHideContent, 1000); clearTimeout(showTimer);" onmouseover=" var self = this; showTimer = window.setTimeout(function(){WRCShowContent({&#39;rating&#39;:{&#39;value&#39;:-1,&#39;weight&#39;:-1},&#39;flags&#39;:{},&#39;single&#39;:true,&#39;ttl&#39;:7200,&#39;expireTime&#39;:&#39;20120826185203&#39;}, self.className)},600);" class="wrc0" style="padding-right:16px;width:16px;height:16px">


On 27 August 2012 20:57, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 28 August 2012 00:41, Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be
>> the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there
>> London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues
>
> Lets remember that London isn't alone in that. If the Wikimania is Europe -
> does not mind if is in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy Germany, Poland or the
> european part of Russia - the travel cost will be as cheap for other
> European residents.

However, for people attending from outside Europe, London is a lot
cheaper than most places to get to due to being a major hub. To get to
a lot of places in Europe from outside Europe, your cheapest route is
often to go via London. (Paris and Frankfurt are also major hubs, but
the other countries you mention would generally be more expensive to
get to.)

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l<span onmouseout="cancel = false; window.setTimeout(WRCHideContent, 1000); clearTimeout(showTimer);" onmouseover=" var self = this; showTimer = window.setTimeout(function(){WRCShowContent({&#39;rating&#39;:{&#39;value&#39;:-1,&#39;weight&#39;:0},&#39;flags&#39;:{},&#39;single&#39;:true,&#39;ttl&#39;:7200,&#39;expireTime&#39;:&#39;20120826152532&#39;}, self.className)},600);" class="wrc0" style="padding-right:16px;width:16px;height:16px">


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

WereSpielChequers-2
In reply to this post by Béria Lima
No, travel costs are not a purely geographic thing. London is an unusually central location for the world's airlines, and also has a number of budget airlines with many routes. If everyone was driving across Europe to Wikimania then it would be logical to hold it somewhere near Crackow or Bratislava. But if most people are flying and many are doing so from cities that don't have major international airports then London is unusually, perhaps uniquely well connected.

Flying costs vary somewhat with distance, but more with competition, number of connections needed and standard of airline. There are disadvantages to budget airlines that don't allocate a specific seat and charge extra for baggage in the hold and even food, but they are usually cheaper. I know a family that have decided never to fly RyanAir again after not being able to get a block of four seats for two adults and two small children. But it is very cheap for one adult flying alone with just a weekend bag and no preference as to where they sit, and I suspect that describes the typical Wikimanian. 

WSC
On 28 August 2012 00:41, Béria Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just one small detail:

As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues

Lets remember that London isn't alone in that. If the Wikimania is Europe - does not mind if is in Portugal, Spain, France, Italy Germany, Poland or the european part of Russia - the travel cost will be as cheap for other European residents.
_____
Béria Lima

Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a construir esse sonho.



On 27 August 2012 06:01, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is a risk of people adding too much into Wikimanias. I've been to three Wikimania events and the most lost people I met were not those editors who were at their first event - they fitted in well. The most lost people I met were those who hadn't started editing yet. I'm very happy to make time for such people, and in London we are holding events to introduce potential editors to Wikimedia. But I don't think that such events are  a natural fit with wikimania, and I would suggest that we not promote Wikimania to non-editors. Nor do I think that we should aim for Wikimania to be an event for the press. Yes if there are journalists who are interested and want to come by all means let them. Though I've yet to meet a journalist who doesn't feel that they have some sort of professional duty to out any Wikimedian they report on. But we shouldn't let Wikimania become some sort of media event, though it will be difficult to avoid producing any press releases from a Wikimania. An inwardly focussed event that doesn't try to "raise its media profile" would be better than one that considers press coverage to be a measure of its success.

As for costs we need to remember that for many if not most travel will be the largest part of the bill, and when you include the cost of getting there London becomes one of our cheapest potential venues. We just need to make sure that the facilities and budget accommodation are as cheap as London (or elsewhere near Heathrow) is capable of. But with the greying of the pedia we need to cater both for those whose idea of basic accommodation is  a room with a bed and for those who are looking for somewhere they can stretch out a sleeping bag.

One economy we can make based on last years Indian conference is that we don't need WiFi everywhere. A designated WiFi free zone with coffee is a useful part of a large meetup and it should save money if you can tell the WiFi provider to designate the hardest coffee area to provide WiFi for as a   WiFi free zone.

What I'd like to see in a Wikimania bid is a commitment for e-involvement and making things as multilingual as practical. We could do this by working with chapters and other local groups so that for topics that people want to get involved in we repeat the session online and in requested languages with a translator working with the presenter.

WSC 


On 27 August 2012 08:55, Tobias <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 08/25/2012 09:46 PM, Lodewijk wrote:
Maybe the question should first be: what kind of Wikimania do we want.
Personally, I would be totally happy with down scaling the conference a
bit. Less visitors (500-600), less events and less professional. Let it
be more volunteer focused, and yes, perhaps also a bit more chaotic.

I concur and I'm glad you brought this topic up.

Wikimedians are not professionals, they are volunteers. Our community /is/ chaotic and a bit unorganized. It's fine if Wikimania reflects that.


That also means we can change the nature of bids: more back to basic and
more focus on location, venue and accomodation.

We should also focus on making Wikimania more affordable. If that means choosing cheaper locations that might be a bit less spectacular, that's fine with me. I've always thought the charm of Wikimania stems from its participants and not a particular venue.

Manuel (among others) is organizing WikiCon 2012, which will start in a few days in Austria. The fee is only 10 Euro for the full conference (three days), and that even includes meals and a place to sleep in a gym.
Last year's WikiCon was fantastic even though there was not an exotic venue, a beach party, a wonderful port or a disco night in the center of a large city. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy such events, nor that they aren't parts of the positive memory I have of past Wikimanias, but expensive and exotic events and locations should not be considered a "must" for future Wikimanias.

Regards,
Tobias

Ps.: The WikiCon conference for german-speaking countries is a great example of an event between the magnitude of million-dollar-events like Wikimania and zero-dollar local community meetups. They work great, help to get to know each other in real life (and to sort out differences) as well as exchanging ideas and bringing the movement forward. You should have a WikiCon in your country, too!


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l



_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l



_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Gordon Joly
On 28/08/12 06:29, WereSpielChequers wrote:
> No, travel costs are not a purely geographic thing.
And other costs too. The Pound versus the Euro versus the US dollar is a
big factor. And since this two years away, who knows what the
relationship might be. I believe that the Euro is 12% cheaper against
the GB Pound compared to a year ago (a downwards trend through that period).

Hence, costs travelling from X to Y could cheaper (or more expensive)
depending on the exchange rates in 2014.

Gordo





_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: UK budget plan for 2014 Wikimania bid

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by WereSpielChequers-2


On 28 August 2012 06:29, WereSpielChequers <[hidden email]> wrote:
No, travel costs are not a purely geographic thing. London is an unusually central location for the world's airlines, and also has a number of budget airlines with many routes. If everyone was driving across Europe to Wikimania then it would be logical to hold it somewhere near Crackow or Bratislava. But if most people are flying and many are doing so from cities that don't have major international airports then London is unusually, perhaps uniquely well connected.

Flying costs vary somewhat with distance, but more with competition, number of connections needed and standard of airline. There are disadvantages to budget airlines that don't allocate a specific seat and charge extra for baggage in the hold and even food, but they are usually cheaper. I know a family that have decided never to fly RyanAir again after not being able to get a block of four seats for two adults and two small children. But it is very cheap for one adult flying alone with just a weekend bag and no preference as to where they sit, and I suspect that describes the typical Wikimanian. 


It all depends on where you are coming from, really.

Coming from the USA, Lisbon is no worse (and usually cheaper) than London.

South America; Spain is easiest.

Russia, Northern & Eastern Europe are often better served through Germany.

Africa generally runs through Paris,

Middle East/Asia/Eurasia often go via Dubai (a massive hub) which has strong connections to London - so from those areas London is usually the best choice.

In my experience of air travel; London is cheaper if you are on a long haul flight into the capital. If you fly to another EU hub and short haul from there it can get very expensive (if flying to the EU then onto the UK it is usually cheaper to go to another UK airport).

But at the end of the day - most places will have these costs. Getting to Washington probably cost a LOT for those travelling from Asia for example.

Tom


_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
1234