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Unblock request

abu hamza
Hi,
my wiki name is saladin1970. I joined just 3 days but find myself banned.

i was banned by Jayjg . He cited the following reasons

1) 3RR rule
2) No useful edits
3) Copyright violoations
4) attacks on talk pages

They all seem very serious. yet when we look into each of the reasons, they
really have no substance.

1) I have two pc's one is shared at work - hence the same ip address and
editor
the othe is my home pc. I only reverted 3 times, as did my collegue at work.

2) I have made many contributions, including a section on moors in the
spanish inquisition, additions to the islam in china section, background
info on harold shipman and contributions to alan harts page and zionism
page, and turkic.

3) There have been NO copyright violations. Every post was referenced to a
website or to a book. All of whom allow references to as part of their  
copyright. So there was NO copy right violation

4) there were no personal attacks on talk pages. The worst that could be
said was that i called someone a 'zionist'.

Clearly there is something more to this than the above, as these at best are
minor violations that would carry warnings.

however I contend that this blocking falls under the "not advised to block
rule".

my posts in the zionism forum have illicited strong responses . Including
the person that banned me jayjg.  These posts included
a) a section on the talmudic three oaths - which is the reason behind
orthodox jews who oppose political zionism.  This was reverted many times by
jayjg amongst others

also i added a further reading section book entitled "zionism the enemy of
the jews by alan hart",
who was a itv corrospondent during the 80's. His book is well researched
'historical and political' of the lead up to the creation of israel.

Given that Jayjg was part of this debate, i can see no other reason for my
ban (as the reasons given are spurious) other than to eliminate a user who
has a different view of zionism.

for this reason i am asking a moderator to look at the material posted by
me, and make a fair decisions as to whether i should be banned indefinately
thanks saladin

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Re: Unblock request

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a block.
Edits like
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640#The_three_talmudic_Oathsare
clearly problematic. You remove sources and add a citation needed
template in its place or replace existing sources with links to a website
with obvious POV issues. And a whole section with a scholarly reference
turned into a disputed tag.

In
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767 you
also try to link to http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com

Multiple people have explained why you can't use this as a source and in
response you say they vandalise wikipedia when it's you who remove sources
to get it in.

Your contributions show the following edits:
 10:41, 18 May 2006
(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640>)
Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page. the
references provide all the information given)
10:06, 18 May 2006
(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53835919>)
Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page - the
three oaths are totally relevant -unless you can come up with a good reason
it stays)
06:41, 18 May 2006
(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53819450>)
Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (added three oaths section,)
19:26, 17 May 2006
(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767>)
Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (removed pov further reading
and added a factual reference)

That's 4 reverts in about 15 hours, clearly a 3RR violation. All on the same
username, your IP has nothing to do with that.
Mgm


On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
> my wiki name is saladin1970. I joined just 3 days but find myself banned.
>
> i was banned by Jayjg . He cited the following reasons
>
> 1) 3RR rule
> 2) No useful edits
> 3) Copyright violoations
> 4) attacks on talk pages
>
> They all seem very serious. yet when we look into each of the reasons,
> they
> really have no substance.
>
> 1) I have two pc's one is shared at work - hence the same ip address and
> editor
> the othe is my home pc. I only reverted 3 times, as did my collegue at
> work.
>
> 2) I have made many contributions, including a section on moors in the
> spanish inquisition, additions to the islam in china section, background
> info on harold shipman and contributions to alan harts page and zionism
> page, and turkic.
>
> 3) There have been NO copyright violations. Every post was referenced to a
> website or to a book. All of whom allow references to as part of their
> copyright. So there was NO copy right violation
>
> 4) there were no personal attacks on talk pages. The worst that could be
> said was that i called someone a 'zionist'.
>
> Clearly there is something more to this than the above, as these at best
> are
> minor violations that would carry warnings.
>
> however I contend that this blocking falls under the "not advised to block
> rule".
>
> my posts in the zionism forum have illicited strong responses . Including
> the person that banned me jayjg.  These posts included
> a) a section on the talmudic three oaths - which is the reason behind
> orthodox jews who oppose political zionism.  This was reverted many times
> by
> jayjg amongst others
>
> also i added a further reading section book entitled "zionism the enemy of
> the jews by alan hart",
> who was a itv corrospondent during the 80's. His book is well researched
> 'historical and political' of the lead up to the creation of israel.
>
> Given that Jayjg was part of this debate, i can see no other reason for my
> ban (as the reasons given are spurious) other than to eliminate a user who
> has a different view of zionism.
>
> for this reason i am asking a moderator to look at the material posted by
> me, and make a fair decisions as to whether i should be banned
> indefinately
> thanks saladin
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
> 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Unblock request

Ryan Delaney
On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a block.


Agreed that it justifies a block, but an indefinite block? For his second
block EVER?

Ryan
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Re: Unblock request

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
Perhaps a little too long, yes.
I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
made.

Mgm


On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a
> block.
>
>
> Agreed that it justifies a block, but an indefinite block? For his second
> block EVER?
>
> Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Unblock request

abu hamza
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
hi MacGyver. I wrote the section. Someone else added a request for
citations, and i provided them. I didn't delete any citiations,I deleted the
citations an put the references in their place

and for the jews against zionism - there was no reason given why it is not a
good source other than that it was  "propoganda", which is subjective.. The
talmudic oaths are part of the talmud and the jews against zionism page
referenced just quotes the talmud. Surely this cannot be classified as
'propoganda'.

And if i broke the 3R rule by reverting 3 times and adding something another
time, then fine. but surely this carries just a 24 hour ban, not indefinate.

I appreciate that zionism is a 'hot topic', but that surely should mean
being as fair as possible to the contributors, not imposing an extremely
harsh ban for reasons with little or no substance.

Also Jayjg suggested i had broken copy right rules and used this as one of
the reasons. I cannot find any examples, perhaps you can have a look.

thanks saladin1970




>From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Unblock request
>Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:08:41 +0200
>
>I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a block.
>Edits like
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640#The_three_talmudic_Oathsare
>clearly problematic. You remove sources and add a citation needed
>template in its place or replace existing sources with links to a website
>with obvious POV issues. And a whole section with a scholarly reference
>turned into a disputed tag.
>
>In
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767 
>you
>also try to link to http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com
>
>Multiple people have explained why you can't use this as a source and in
>response you say they vandalise wikipedia when it's you who remove sources
>to get it in.
>
>Your contributions show the following edits:
>  10:41, 18 May 2006
>(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
>(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640>)
>Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page. the
>references provide all the information given)
>10:06, 18 May 2006
>(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
>(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53835919>)
>Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page - the
>three oaths are totally relevant -unless you can come up with a good reason
>it stays)
>06:41, 18 May 2006
>(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
>(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53819450>)
>Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (added three oaths section,)
>19:26, 17 May 2006
>(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
>(diff<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767>)
>Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (removed pov further reading
>and added a factual reference)
>
>That's 4 reverts in about 15 hours, clearly a 3RR violation. All on the
>same
>username, your IP has nothing to do with that.
>Mgm
>
>
>On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > my wiki name is saladin1970. I joined just 3 days but find myself
>banned.
> >
> > i was banned by Jayjg . He cited the following reasons
> >
> > 1) 3RR rule
> > 2) No useful edits
> > 3) Copyright violoations
> > 4) attacks on talk pages
> >
> > They all seem very serious. yet when we look into each of the reasons,
> > they
> > really have no substance.
> >
> > 1) I have two pc's one is shared at work - hence the same ip address and
> > editor
> > the othe is my home pc. I only reverted 3 times, as did my collegue at
> > work.
> >
> > 2) I have made many contributions, including a section on moors in the
> > spanish inquisition, additions to the islam in china section, background
> > info on harold shipman and contributions to alan harts page and zionism
> > page, and turkic.
> >
> > 3) There have been NO copyright violations. Every post was referenced to
>a
> > website or to a book. All of whom allow references to as part of their
> > copyright. So there was NO copy right violation
> >
> > 4) there were no personal attacks on talk pages. The worst that could be
> > said was that i called someone a 'zionist'.
> >
> > Clearly there is something more to this than the above, as these at best
> > are
> > minor violations that would carry warnings.
> >
> > however I contend that this blocking falls under the "not advised to
>block
> > rule".
> >
> > my posts in the zionism forum have illicited strong responses .
>Including
> > the person that banned me jayjg.  These posts included
> > a) a section on the talmudic three oaths - which is the reason behind
> > orthodox jews who oppose political zionism.  This was reverted many
>times
> > by
> > jayjg amongst others
> >
> > also i added a further reading section book entitled "zionism the enemy
>of
> > the jews by alan hart",
> > who was a itv corrospondent during the 80's. His book is well researched
> > 'historical and political' of the lead up to the creation of israel.
> >
> > Given that Jayjg was part of this debate, i can see no other reason for
>my
> > ban (as the reasons given are spurious) other than to eliminate a user
>who
> > has a different view of zionism.
> >
> > for this reason i am asking a moderator to look at the material posted
>by
> > me, and make a fair decisions as to whether i should be banned
> > indefinately
> > thanks saladin
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN
>Messenger
> > 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

_________________________________________________________________
Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview

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Re: Unblock request

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> made.
>
> Mgm


 Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't simple
vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community banned.

Ryan
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Re: Unblock request

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
In reply to this post by abu hamza
You did delete citations, I linked the edits in which you did. And I also
linked the edit in which you replaced a perfectly fine source with your
link. The 3RR violation is because you keep adding the same link when
several people have asked you not to. In such cases, you should engage in
discussion, not revert back.

I've asked Jaiyg to comment on the copyvio thing.

Mgm


On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> hi MacGyver. I wrote the section. Someone else added a request for
> citations, and i provided them. I didn't delete any citiations,I deleted
> the
> citations an put the references in their place
>
> and for the jews against zionism - there was no reason given why it is not
> a
> good source other than that it was  "propoganda", which is subjective..
> The
> talmudic oaths are part of the talmud and the jews against zionism page
> referenced just quotes the talmud. Surely this cannot be classified as
> 'propoganda'.
>
> And if i broke the 3R rule by reverting 3 times and adding something
> another
> time, then fine. but surely this carries just a 24 hour ban, not
> indefinate.
>
> I appreciate that zionism is a 'hot topic', but that surely should mean
> being as fair as possible to the contributors, not imposing an extremely
> harsh ban for reasons with little or no substance.
>
> Also Jayjg suggested i had broken copy right rules and used this as one of
> the reasons. I cannot find any examples, perhaps you can have a look.
>
> thanks saladin1970
>
>
>
>
> >From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <[hidden email]>
> >Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> >To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Unblock request
> >Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:08:41 +0200
> >
> >I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a
> block.
> >Edits like
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640#The_three_talmudic_Oathsare
> >clearly problematic. You remove sources and add a citation needed
> >template in its place or replace existing sources with links to a website
> >with obvious POV issues. And a whole section with a scholarly reference
> >turned into a disputed tag.
> >
> >In
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767
> >you
> >also try to link to http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com
> >
> >Multiple people have explained why you can't use this as a source and in
> >response you say they vandalise wikipedia when it's you who remove
> sources
> >to get it in.
> >
> >Your contributions show the following edits:
> >  10:41, 18 May 2006
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> >(diff<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640
> >)
> >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page. the
> >references provide all the information given)
> >10:06, 18 May 2006
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> >(diff<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53835919
> >)
> >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page - the
> >three oaths are totally relevant -unless you can come up with a good
> reason
> >it stays)
> >06:41, 18 May 2006
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> >(diff<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53819450
> >)
> >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (added three oaths
> section,)
> >19:26, 17 May 2006
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> >(diff<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767
> >)
> >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (removed pov further
> reading
> >and added a factual reference)
> >
> >That's 4 reverts in about 15 hours, clearly a 3RR violation. All on the
> >same
> >username, your IP has nothing to do with that.
> >Mgm
> >
> >
> >On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > my wiki name is saladin1970. I joined just 3 days but find myself
> >banned.
> > >
> > > i was banned by Jayjg . He cited the following reasons
> > >
> > > 1) 3RR rule
> > > 2) No useful edits
> > > 3) Copyright violoations
> > > 4) attacks on talk pages
> > >
> > > They all seem very serious. yet when we look into each of the reasons,
> > > they
> > > really have no substance.
> > >
> > > 1) I have two pc's one is shared at work - hence the same ip address
> and
> > > editor
> > > the othe is my home pc. I only reverted 3 times, as did my collegue at
> > > work.
> > >
> > > 2) I have made many contributions, including a section on moors in the
> > > spanish inquisition, additions to the islam in china section,
> background
> > > info on harold shipman and contributions to alan harts page and
> zionism
> > > page, and turkic.
> > >
> > > 3) There have been NO copyright violations. Every post was referenced
> to
> >a
> > > website or to a book. All of whom allow references to as part of their
> > > copyright. So there was NO copy right violation
> > >
> > > 4) there were no personal attacks on talk pages. The worst that could
> be
> > > said was that i called someone a 'zionist'.
> > >
> > > Clearly there is something more to this than the above, as these at
> best
> > > are
> > > minor violations that would carry warnings.
> > >
> > > however I contend that this blocking falls under the "not advised to
> >block
> > > rule".
> > >
> > > my posts in the zionism forum have illicited strong responses .
> >Including
> > > the person that banned me jayjg.  These posts included
> > > a) a section on the talmudic three oaths - which is the reason behind
> > > orthodox jews who oppose political zionism.  This was reverted many
> >times
> > > by
> > > jayjg amongst others
> > >
> > > also i added a further reading section book entitled "zionism the
> enemy
> >of
> > > the jews by alan hart",
> > > who was a itv corrospondent during the 80's. His book is well
> researched
> > > 'historical and political' of the lead up to the creation of israel.
> > >
> > > Given that Jayjg was part of this debate, i can see no other reason
> for
> >my
> > > ban (as the reasons given are spurious) other than to eliminate a user
> >who
> > > has a different view of zionism.
> > >
> > > for this reason i am asking a moderator to look at the material posted
> >by
> > > me, and make a fair decisions as to whether i should be banned
> > > indefinately
> > > thanks saladin
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN
> >Messenger
> > > 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >_______________________________________________
> >WikiEN-l mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger
> 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Unblock request

gamaliel8
In reply to this post by abu hamza
On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:

> and for the jews against zionism - there was no reason given why it is not a
> good source other than that it was  "propoganda", which is subjective.. The
> talmudic oaths are part of the talmud and the jews against zionism page
> referenced just quotes the talmud. Surely this cannot be classified as
> 'propoganda'.

If you wish to quote the Talmud, surely you can find a better web page
to use than http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com.
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Re: Unblock request

abu hamza
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
ok, i have looked at the links properly. If you could read the whole post
before reply , it would be gratefully appreciated

yes, in my reversion to the previous page , a citation was removed . Given
the notes stated it was just a reversion from the one before mine, i was
unaware that extra information had been added. One has to ask the question,
what about my citation that was delted.

To the second point about the applicability of using the website "z-ionism
the real enemy of the jews". I am a little confused. A forum member says it
is anti - zionism. I say that it is a historical and factual account of the
run up to the creation of israel , not the historical and factual account of
the movement of anti - zionism (whatever that is). Another user then says it
is a POV.
Yet this was a book written by the itv middle east corrospondence of ten
years, who spent 5 years documenting and researching this book using
factual, referencable material. Someone who had a working relationship with
the presidents and gola meir
Now if someone says it is pov and i say it is a factual account, how comes
my assertion gets used as evidence of banning me indefinately. Shouldn't the
question be why is this reference to this book being continuously deleted

Anyhow, the above is  really only relevant, in that it highlioghts the
subjectiveness of this case.

the real crux of the matter is that i have been banned indefinately (in my
first ban -as the ban by thomas harrison was for the same 3rr).

Jaygy has said i broke copy right rules -  yet after 10 hours or so he still
hasn't produced any evidence of this. It would be extremely unfair for me to
have been banned for something a moderator made up . One would have thought
that if this was one of the reasons he would have the evidence at hand.

Jaygy also said i did not post any useful posts  - this is highly subjective
and one has to wonder about the fairness of being banned because of an
administrators subjective view my posts were 'useless'.

Jaygy also said i conducted 'attacks' in the talk pages. My statement that
some one is a zionist can hardly be in the hall of fame of attacks,
especially to merit banning indefinately

Unless Jaygy has been able to produce this evidence of my copy right
violations or show you evidence of my profound attacks on others, then it
would be extremely unfair and against wikipedia policies to ban me
indefinatly.

Thanks once again for taking the time to read my points, your sincerely
Saladin






>From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Unblock request
>Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:33:36 +0200
>
>You did delete citations, I linked the edits in which you did. And I also
>linked the edit in which you replaced a perfectly fine source with your
>link. The 3RR violation is because you keep adding the same link when
>several people have asked you not to. In such cases, you should engage in
>discussion, not revert back.
>
>I've asked Jaiyg to comment on the copyvio thing.
>
>Mgm
>
>
>On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > hi MacGyver. I wrote the section. Someone else added a request for
> > citations, and i provided them. I didn't delete any citiations,I deleted
> > the
> > citations an put the references in their place
> >
> > and for the jews against zionism - there was no reason given why it is
>not
> > a
> > good source other than that it was  "propoganda", which is subjective..
> > The
> > talmudic oaths are part of the talmud and the jews against zionism page
> > referenced just quotes the talmud. Surely this cannot be classified as
> > 'propoganda'.
> >
> > And if i broke the 3R rule by reverting 3 times and adding something
> > another
> > time, then fine. but surely this carries just a 24 hour ban, not
> > indefinate.
> >
> > I appreciate that zionism is a 'hot topic', but that surely should mean
> > being as fair as possible to the contributors, not imposing an extremely
> > harsh ban for reasons with little or no substance.
> >
> > Also Jayjg suggested i had broken copy right rules and used this as one
>of
> > the reasons. I cannot find any examples, perhaps you can have a look.
> >
> > thanks saladin1970
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "MacGyverMagic/Mgm" <[hidden email]>
> > >Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> > >To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
> > >Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Unblock request
> > >Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:08:41 +0200
> > >
> > >I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a
> > block.
> > >Edits like
> > >
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640#The_three_talmudic_Oathsare
> > >clearly problematic. You remove sources and add a citation needed
> > >template in its place or replace existing sources with links to a
>website
> > >with obvious POV issues. And a whole section with a scholarly reference
> > >turned into a disputed tag.
> > >
> > >In
> > >
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767
> > >you
> > >also try to link to http://zionism-realenemyofthejews.com
> > >
> > >Multiple people have explained why you can't use this as a source and
>in
> > >response you say they vandalise wikipedia when it's you who remove
> > sources
> > >to get it in.
> > >
> > >Your contributions show the following edits:
> > >  10:41, 18 May 2006
> >
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> > >(diff<
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53838640
> > >)
> > >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page.
>the
> > >references provide all the information given)
> > >10:06, 18 May 2006
> >
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> > >(diff<
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53835919
> > >)
> > >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (rv to previous page -
>the
> > >three oaths are totally relevant -unless you can come up with a good
> > reason
> > >it stays)
> > >06:41, 18 May 2006
> >
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> > >(diff<
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53819450
> > >)
> > >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (added three oaths
> > section,)
> > >19:26, 17 May 2006
> >
> >(hist<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&action=history>)
> > >(diff<
> >
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=prev&oldid=53731767
> > >)
> > >Zionism <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism> (removed pov further
> > reading
> > >and added a factual reference)
> > >
> > >That's 4 reverts in about 15 hours, clearly a 3RR violation. All on the
> > >same
> > >username, your IP has nothing to do with that.
> > >Mgm
> > >
> > >
> > >On 5/19/06, abu hamza <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > my wiki name is saladin1970. I joined just 3 days but find myself
> > >banned.
> > > >
> > > > i was banned by Jayjg . He cited the following reasons
> > > >
> > > > 1) 3RR rule
> > > > 2) No useful edits
> > > > 3) Copyright violoations
> > > > 4) attacks on talk pages
> > > >
> > > > They all seem very serious. yet when we look into each of the
>reasons,
> > > > they
> > > > really have no substance.
> > > >
> > > > 1) I have two pc's one is shared at work - hence the same ip address
> > and
> > > > editor
> > > > the othe is my home pc. I only reverted 3 times, as did my collegue
>at
> > > > work.
> > > >
> > > > 2) I have made many contributions, including a section on moors in
>the
> > > > spanish inquisition, additions to the islam in china section,
> > background
> > > > info on harold shipman and contributions to alan harts page and
> > zionism
> > > > page, and turkic.
> > > >
> > > > 3) There have been NO copyright violations. Every post was
>referenced
> > to
> > >a
> > > > website or to a book. All of whom allow references to as part of
>their
> > > > copyright. So there was NO copy right violation
> > > >
> > > > 4) there were no personal attacks on talk pages. The worst that
>could
> > be
> > > > said was that i called someone a 'zionist'.
> > > >
> > > > Clearly there is something more to this than the above, as these at
> > best
> > > > are
> > > > minor violations that would carry warnings.
> > > >
> > > > however I contend that this blocking falls under the "not advised to
> > >block
> > > > rule".
> > > >
> > > > my posts in the zionism forum have illicited strong responses .
> > >Including
> > > > the person that banned me jayjg.  These posts included
> > > > a) a section on the talmudic three oaths - which is the reason
>behind
> > > > orthodox jews who oppose political zionism.  This was reverted many
> > >times
> > > > by
> > > > jayjg amongst others
> > > >
> > > > also i added a further reading section book entitled "zionism the
> > enemy
> > >of
> > > > the jews by alan hart",
> > > > who was a itv corrospondent during the 80's. His book is well
> > researched
> > > > 'historical and political' of the lead up to the creation of israel.
> > > >
> > > > Given that Jayjg was part of this debate, i can see no other reason
> > for
> > >my
> > > > ban (as the reasons given are spurious) other than to eliminate a
>user
> > >who
> > > > has a different view of zionism.
> > > >
> > > > for this reason i am asking a moderator to look at the material
>posted
> > >by
> > > > me, and make a fair decisions as to whether i should be banned
> > > > indefinately
> > > > thanks saladin
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN
> > >Messenger
> > > > 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >WikiEN-l mailing list
> > >[hidden email]
> > >To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > >http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN
>Messenger
> > 7.5 today! http://join.msn.com/messenger/overview
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
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Re: Unblock request

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by Ryan Delaney
On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> > I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> > made.
> >
> > Mgm
>
>
>  Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't
> simple vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community
> banned.
>

Anyway, I'm unblocking and reblocking for 1 week.  He can get community
approval for a ban in that time.

Ryan
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Re: Unblock request

abu hamza
hi ryan, why am i being blocked for a week?
on what grounds? there has to be grounds. Otherwise it is entirely unfair.
and why do i have to have the threat of the community banning me permanently
over my head. Again there has to be grounds for this. I can't see any.

I have only been a wikipedia member for 3 days, and  i have been banned
permanently, recommended to be banned for a week pending community
judgement, and yet there is no evidence that i violated any rules to call
for such justification.
There has to be fairness in wikipedia, otherwise it doesn't work


>From: "Ryan Delaney" <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
>To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Unblock request
>Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:30:59 -0400
>
>On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> > > I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed
>saladin
> > > made.
> > >
> > > Mgm
> >
> >
> >  Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't
> > simple vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community
> > banned.
> >
>
>Anyway, I'm unblocking and reblocking for 1 week.  He can get community
>approval for a ban in that time.
>
>Ryan
>_______________________________________________
>WikiEN-l mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Re: Unblock request

Mark Wagner-2
In reply to this post by Ryan Delaney
On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> > I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> > made.
>
>  Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't simple
> vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community banned.

Repeated, persistent copyright violations *is* grounds for an indefinite block.

--
Mark
[[User:Carnildo]]
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Re: Unblock request

jayjg
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
Saladin1970 added a whole bunch of text to the Alan Hart article which
was copied directly from a website about his book:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alan_Hart&diff=53330262&oldid=30102511]

He then reverted it in twice.  I consider that copyvio and advertising.

He has also insisted on labelling Harold Shipman, "the most prolific
known serial killer in the history of Britain (and possibly the
world)" as a "Jew", insisting he be described as a "Jewish British
general practitioner" in the introduction
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_Shipman&diff=52931256&oldid=52768697]
 [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Harold_Shipman&diff=53056969&oldid=53017343]
, and reverted it in 7 more times.

His talk comments contain personal attacks on various editors,
insisting that they, among other things "stop pushing their Zionist
agenda" and stop "vandalising", and stating "never mind, this is to be
expected from zionists".  He offers to edit-war on behalf of other
editors [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Amibidhrohi&diff=prev&oldid=53821548]
and edit wars himself, violating 3RR on more than one occasion.  Oh
wait, I forgot, after three reverts he actually stopped editing, and
"someone else" from his work just happened to spontaneously revert as
an IP editor on his behalf.  And when someone was also reverting from
Saladin1970's home IP, that must have been when that "someone else"
was visiting him at home.

Saladin1970's actual article "contributions" have all been POV,
usually not relevant to the article, extremely poorly written,
generally unsourced, and, when sourced, taken from non-reliable
sources; that's when they haven't been POV copyvios.  Moreover, they
have been reverted by 9 different editors.  He has managed all of this
in under 50 edits.  I'm having difficulty understanding what value he
could possibly bring to the project.

Jay.


On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> made.
>
> Mgm
>
>
> On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I only did a cursory glance, but what I've seen totally justifies a
> > block.
> >
> >
> > Agreed that it justifies a block, but an indefinite block? For his second
> > block EVER?
> >
> > Ryan
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: Unblock request

jayjg
In reply to this post by Ryan Delaney
On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> > > I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> > > made.
> > >
> > > Mgm
> >
> >
> >  Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't
> > simple vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community
> > banned.
> >
>
> Anyway, I'm unblocking and reblocking for 1 week.  He can get community
> approval for a ban in that time.

I announced the indefinite block on WP:AN/3RR when I made it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:Saladin1970_also_editing_as_User:62.129.121.63
and so far there have been no objections.  If you agree that should be
blocked for a week at least, then why do you feel the need to
wheel-war and undo my action right now?  Why not at least wait until I
have a chance to login, read the e-mails, and respond?  And why don't
you spend that week trying to get consensus for reducing the block?

Jay.
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Re: Unblock request

Sarah-128
> On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Anyway, I'm unblocking and reblocking for 1 week.  He can get community
> > approval for a ban in that time.

Ryan, please don't undo other admins' blocks. Discuss it with the
blocking admin and ask him or her to reconsider. See the blocking
policy.

Sarah
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Re: Unblock request

Sarah-128
In reply to this post by Mark Wagner-2
On 5/19/06, Mark Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 5/19/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Perhaps a little too long, yes.
> > > I'll see if Jaiyg can tell me more about the copyvio he claimed saladin
> > > made.
> >
> >  Even a copyvio doesn't justify an indefinite block here. This isn't simple
> > vandalism and there's no way we can consider this guy community banned.
>
> Repeated, persistent copyright violations *is* grounds for an indefinite block.
>
This is a single-issue editor who has arrived with a very strong POV
and is determined to push it, has very poor research and writing
skills, deletes legitimate material, inserts original research,
misuses primary sources, uses dodgy websites as secondary sources,
uses an anon IP to violate 3RR, violates copyright, and makes (so far
as I can tell) no useful edits. So why is his indefinite block being
reversed. Is Ryan prepared to mentor him?

Sarah
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Re: Unblock request

geni
In reply to this post by Sarah-128
On 5/19/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Anyway, I'm unblocking and reblocking for 1 week.  He can get community
> > > approval for a ban in that time.
>
> Ryan, please don't undo other admins' blocks.

You know if we had had this attitude about a year back I would
probably have had the you have new messages thing perminatly stuck at
the top of my screen.

--
geni
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Re: Unblock request

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by jayjg
On 5/19/06, jayjg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Saladin1970's actual article "contributions" have all been POV,
> usually not relevant to the article, extremely poorly written,
> generally unsourced, and, when sourced, taken from non-reliable
> sources; that's when they haven't been POV copyvios.  Moreover, they
> have been reverted by 9 different editors.  He has managed all of this
> in under 50 edits.  I'm having difficulty understanding what value he
> could possibly bring to the project.
>
> Jay.


He's a newbie. He doesn't understand our rules or procedures or have any
sense of institutional memory like those of us who have been around for a
long time. Revert him, zap him with the cluebat a few times, and give him a
chance to reform. This is a wiki and the article histories are preserved
indefinitely. If short blocks have no effect on him, then I'd be willing to
consent to a community ban. But we have to try them first.

Ryan
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Re: Unblock request

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by Sarah-128
On 5/19/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So why is his indefinite block being
> reversed.


Because he's a newbie and no one bothered to give him short blocks. This
isn't simple vandalism and he's not willy on wheels.  Someone
misunderstanding our policies doesn't give anyone precedent to railroad him
rather than giving him a chance. We tell people to be bold, and then
indefinite block them for doing it?

Is Ryan prepared to mentor him?


No, I'm not prepared to mentor everyone I unblock.

Ryan
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Re: Unblock request

Humus Sapiens
I support Jayjg's decision. This user violated enough rules to deserve
a ban. Such extremists radicalize or drive away good contributors.
--
Thank you,
 Humus sapiens




On 5/19/06, Ryan Delaney <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 5/19/06, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > So why is his indefinite block being
> > reversed.
>
>
> Because he's a newbie and no one bothered to give him short blocks. This
> isn't simple vandalism and he's not willy on wheels.  Someone
> misunderstanding our policies doesn't give anyone precedent to railroad him
> rather than giving him a chance. We tell people to be bold, and then
> indefinite block them for doing it?
>
> Is Ryan prepared to mentor him?
>
>
> No, I'm not prepared to mentor everyone I unblock.
>
> Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
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Thank you,
 Humus sapiens
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