VIP Treatment

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VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
If we know a VIP or they knows us they do get rather gentle and forgiving
treatment. They may email Jimbo and a quiet word may be passed to someone
to counsel them regarding how to deal with the community and any problems
in their article.

The thing is, VIPs generally get VIP treatment, personal and forgiving
attention. They may not be prepared, as a practical matter, to "work it
out with the janitor," so to speak. What could we do to improve our
interface with VIPs?

After all, as said, famous people we know, or who know us, do get plenty
of help. They don't get to veto the content of their article, but careful
consideration is given to any issues they may have.

As to who, let's just say that one or two have ended up here:

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board

Perhaps they might have some advice?

There are limits; we're not going to completely satisfy someone who is
thin-skinned and cranky or totally puffed up over themselves, but I'm
sure we could do better even with someone like that.

Fred


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Re: VIP Treatment

Thomas Morton
On 11 September 2012 15:00, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If we know a VIP or they knows us they do get rather gentle and forgiving
> treatment. They may email Jimbo and a quiet word may be passed to someone
> to counsel them regarding how to deal with the community and any problems
> in their article.
>
> The thing is, VIPs generally get VIP treatment, personal and forgiving
> attention. They may not be prepared, as a practical matter, to "work it
> out with the janitor," so to speak. What could we do to improve our
> interface with VIPs?
>
> After all, as said, famous people we know, or who know us, do get plenty
> of help. They don't get to veto the content of their article, but careful
> consideration is given to any issues they may have.
>
> As to who, let's just say that one or two have ended up here:
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board
>
> Perhaps they might have some advice?
>
> There are limits; we're not going to completely satisfy someone who is
> thin-skinned and cranky or totally puffed up over themselves, but I'm
> sure we could do better even with someone like that.
>
> Fred
>
>
>
Fred, it's very difficult to keep track of mailing list threads if you
change the subject each time you post - this makes several in the last
couple of days on the same topic.

Can you keep them all under the same topic please!

Tom
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Re: VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
It's a new topic. Addresses the general question rather than rehashing Roth.

Fred

>>
> Fred, it's very difficult to keep track of mailing list threads if you
change the subject each time you post - this makes several in the last
couple of days on the same topic.
>
> Can you keep them all under the same topic please!
>
> Tom
>





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Re: VIP Treatment

David Gerard-2
On 11 September 2012 17:05, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's a new topic. Addresses the general question rather than rehashing Roth.


Correct. When the topic changes substantially, the subject line should
change. (wikien-l has been very bad for this in the past.)


- d.

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Re: VIP Treatment

Thomas Morton
On 11 September 2012 17:06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11 September 2012 17:05, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > It's a new topic. Addresses the general question rather than rehashing
> Roth.
>
>
> Correct. When the topic changes substantially, the subject line should
> change. (wikien-l has been very bad for this in the past.)
>
>
> - d.


Fair enough.

They read like replies/explanations, relate almost explicitly to the Roth
situation, and pose no questions (i.e. not likely to lead to a discussion)
- so I assumed they were responding to various points in the previous
thread.

Tom
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Re: VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
It seems I have not posed this as a question. The question is how could
we better handle VIP subjects who give us feedback, attempt to edit
either themselves or through an agent, or contact OTRS?

For example, could we assign some diplomatic people to handle such
situations, I've noticed CBS does that. It's a skill.

Fred

> If we know a VIP or they knows us they do get rather gentle and forgiving
> treatment. They may email Jimbo and a quiet word may be passed to someone
> to counsel them regarding how to deal with the community and any problems
> in their article.
>
> The thing is, VIPs generally get VIP treatment, personal and forgiving
> attention. They may not be prepared, as a practical matter, to "work it
> out with the janitor," so to speak. What could we do to improve our
> interface with VIPs?
>
> After all, as said, famous people we know, or who know us, do get plenty
> of help. They don't get to veto the content of their article, but careful
> consideration is given to any issues they may have.
>
> As to who, let's just say that one or two have ended up here:
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Advisory_Board
>
> Perhaps they might have some advice?
>
> There are limits; we're not going to completely satisfy someone who is
> thin-skinned and cranky or totally puffed up over themselves, but I'm
> sure we could do better even with someone like that.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



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Re: VIP Treatment

Thomas Dalton
On 11 September 2012 17:29, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It seems I have not posed this as a question. The question is how could
> we better handle VIP subjects who give us feedback, attempt to edit
> either themselves or through an agent, or contact OTRS?
>
> For example, could we assign some diplomatic people to handle such
> situations, I've noticed CBS does that. It's a skill.

We have assigned diplomatic people to handle such situations - they're
the OTRS volunteers. The problem is how we make sure people get
directed to OTRS.

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Re: VIP Treatment

Matthew Jacobs
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
>
>
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:34:26 +0100
> From: Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
>  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment
>
> On 11 September 2012 17:29, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > It seems I have not posed this as a question. The question is how could
> > we better handle VIP subjects who give us feedback, attempt to edit
> > either themselves or through an agent, or contact OTRS?
> >
> > For example, could we assign some diplomatic people to handle such
> > situations, I've noticed CBS does that. It's a skill.
>
> We have assigned diplomatic people to handle such situations - they're
> the OTRS volunteers. The problem is how we make sure people get
> directed to OTRS.
>
>
One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as representative
of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as being
dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective at
changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
protecting territory than having accurate information.

Even more fundamentally, WP admins are not accountable for doing a good
job, only avoiding doing a bad one. Until that changes, most admins have
little incentive to be anything beyond mediocre. Sure, I believe they
generally mean well, but if they think they're right, why shouldn't they be
rude and drive off the annoying editor who says they're wrong, rather than
waste a bunch of time trying to be helpful and diplomatic. They can be as
rude and territorial as they want, provided they don't cross the line into
"abusing the tools", and no-one will punish them, so why should they bother
politely pointing someone to OTRS, much less spend time and effort trying
to be diplomatic themselves?

Sxeptomaniac
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Re: VIP Treatment

Charles Matthews
On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> >
> > Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:34:26 +0100
> > From: Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]>
> >  Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] VIP Treatment
> >
> > On 11 September 2012 17:29, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > It seems I have not posed this as a question. The question is how could
> > > we better handle VIP subjects who give us feedback, attempt to edit
> > > either themselves or through an agent, or contact OTRS?
> > >
> > > For example, could we assign some diplomatic people to handle such
> > > situations, I've noticed CBS does that. It's a skill.
> >
> > We have assigned diplomatic people to handle such situations - they're
> > the OTRS volunteers. The problem is how we make sure people get
> > directed to OTRS.
> >
> >
> One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as representative
> of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as being
> dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective at
> changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> protecting territory than having accurate information.
>

It's certainly easy to draw conclusions if you include them in the premises
of the argument.


> Even more fundamentally, WP admins are not accountable for doing a good
> job, only avoiding doing a bad one. Until that changes, most admins have
> little incentive to be anything beyond mediocre. Sure, I believe they
> generally mean well, but if they think they're right, why shouldn't they be
> rude and drive off the annoying editor who says they're wrong, rather than
> waste a bunch of time trying to be helpful and diplomatic. They can be as
> rude and territorial as they want, provided they don't cross the line into
> "abusing the tools", and no-one will punish them, so why should they bother
> politely pointing someone to OTRS, much less spend time and effort trying
> to be diplomatic themselves?
>
>
Ditto.

Charles
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Re: VIP Treatment

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Jacobs
On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as representative
> of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as being
> dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective at
> changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> protecting territory than having accurate information.


I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
specifically admin dickishness.

As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
approach, e.g. the email address.

(I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)


- d.

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Re: VIP Treatment

Thomas Morton
On 12 September 2012 17:08, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as representative
> > of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as
> being
> > dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> > portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective at
> > changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> > protecting territory than having accurate information.
>
>
> I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
> an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
> people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
> specifically admin dickishness.
>
> As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
> approach, e.g. the email address.
>
> (I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
> answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
> self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)
>
>
> - d.
>
>
I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
for  requesting unblocks.

We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.

(I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
handling them).

Tom
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Re: VIP Treatment

Martijn Hoekstra
UTRS was created because handling ip unblock requests on OTRS would violate
our privacy policy
On Sep 12, 2012 6:17 PM, "Thomas Morton" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On 12 September 2012 17:08, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as
> representative
> > > of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as
> > being
> > > dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> > > portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective
> at
> > > changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> > > protecting territory than having accurate information.
> >
> >
> > I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
> > an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
> > people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
> > specifically admin dickishness.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
> > approach, e.g. the email address.
> >
> > (I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
> > answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
> > self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> >
> I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
> a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
> for  requesting unblocks.
>
> We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
>
> (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
> are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
> handling them).
>
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: VIP Treatment

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
On 12 September 2012 17:16, Thomas Morton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
> a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
> for  requesting unblocks.
> We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
> (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
> are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
> handling them).


Roth's biographer emailed this UTRS? Aaargh.

(Just spoke to someone from the Sunday Times about the Roth issue. I
characterised it as a series of miscommunications and an instance of
the general problem of people not knowing how to approach Wikipedia
about problems in an article about them. I did note a couple of times
that we were discussing the problem intensely at length, trying to
work out how we could do better next time, and that we don't yet have
an elegant solution to the general problem. Hopefully some of that
will make it to print.)


-d.

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Re: VIP Treatment

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by Martijn Hoekstra
How exactly? On OTRS we handle much more sensitive private info :-)

Tom Morton

On 12 Sep 2012, at 17:26, Martijn Hoekstra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> UTRS was created because handling ip unblock requests on OTRS would violate
> our privacy policy
> On Sep 12, 2012 6:17 PM, "Thomas Morton" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12 September 2012 17:08, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as
>> representative
>>>> of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as
>>> being
>>>> dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
>>>> portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective
>> at
>>>> changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
>>>> protecting territory than having accurate information.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
>>> an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
>>> people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
>>> specifically admin dickishness.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
>>> approach, e.g. the email address.
>>>
>>> (I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
>>> answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
>>> self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>>
>> I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
>> a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
>> for  requesting unblocks.
>>
>> We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
>>
>> (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
>> are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
>> handling them).
>>
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l

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Re: VIP Treatment

Martijn Hoekstra
I have no idea, but legal was sure.
On Sep 12, 2012 6:28 PM, "Thomas Morton" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> How exactly? On OTRS we handle much more sensitive private info :-)
>
> Tom Morton
>
> On 12 Sep 2012, at 17:26, Martijn Hoekstra <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > UTRS was created because handling ip unblock requests on OTRS would
> violate
> > our privacy policy
> > On Sep 12, 2012 6:17 PM, "Thomas Morton" <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 12 September 2012 17:08, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as
> >> representative
> >>>> of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as
> >>> being
> >>>> dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> >>>> portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective
> >> at
> >>>> changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> >>>> protecting territory than having accurate information.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
> >>> an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
> >>> people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
> >>> specifically admin dickishness.
> >>>
> >>> As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
> >>> approach, e.g. the email address.
> >>>
> >>> (I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
> >>> answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
> >>> self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - d.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
> >> a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia
> admins)
> >> for  requesting unblocks.
> >>
> >> We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
> >>
> >> (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
> >> are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
> >> handling them).
> >>
> >> Tom
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Matthew Jacobs
> why should they
> bother
> politely pointing someone to OTRS, much less spend time and effort trying
> to be diplomatic themselves?
>
> Sxeptomaniac

Because they are decent capable people, take pride in doing a good job,
and are concerned about the accuracy and reputation of Wikipedia.

Fred



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Re: VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2

> As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
> approach, e.g. the email address.

> - d.

VIPs expect to deal with another VIP, with authority to get things fixed,
with a word, even if the rules have to be bent a bit. That is the way of
the world. We, particularly a random community member they are
interacting with, often do not have authority to do what has to be done.
They do not understand or appreciate discussions with the community about
their problem.

Fred


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Re: VIP Treatment

Fred Bauder-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
> How exactly? On OTRS we handle much more sensitive private info :-)
>
> Tom Morton

Checkuser may be employed in either instance if there is a good reason,
such as an apparent sock puppet or abuse of multiple accounts.

Fred



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Re: VIP Treatment

Jim Redmond
In reply to this post by Fred Bauder-2
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]>wrote:

> VIPs expect to deal with another VIP, with authority to get things fixed,
> with a word, even if the rules have to be bent a bit. That is the way of
> the world. We, particularly a random community member they are
> interacting with, often do not have authority to do what has to be done.
> They do not understand or appreciate discussions with the community about
> their problem.


For what it's worth, this is not just a VIP behavior. Most people assume
that Wikipedia has centralized control over content, and they want Someone
In Charge to fix things for them. (cf. all the people who e-mail Jimbo
asking him to make changes, or the people who volunteer for OTRS because
they want to fix errors on pages) It's difficult to correct these
assumptions, even after pointing out the big "edit" tab at the top of
nearly every page.

--
Jim Redmond
[[User:Jredmond]]
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Re: VIP Treatment

DeltaQuad Wikipedia
In reply to this post by Thomas Morton
(Disclaimer - I'm a UTRS Developer)

OTRS is not allowed to handle unblocks because of a statement from the WMF
legal team. It involves the issue of private data retention, and how OTRS
does not have the measures to handle removal of private data.

Your right in the fact that we haven't told administrators specifically to
pass anything not related to unblock to OTRS (not that there is an easy way
for doing this, the interface is not setup to reply except to anyone but
the appealing, plus administrators are not shown the appealing users email
address because it's toolserver which is subject to European laws and
private data + identification to the foundation.

Besides that though, do we really need to tell administrators to ONLY
handle the unblock part and forward ALL unrelated requests to OTRS? Seems
excessive, redundant, and more work on us programmers...something that I
might have been able to help with a few weeks ago, but it's hard now that
i'm in school.

------
DeltaQuad
English Wikipedia Administrator and Checkuser

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Thomas Morton <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12 September 2012 17:08, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 12 September 2012 16:50, Matthew Jacobs <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > One problem with that approach is that OTRS is not seen as
> representative
> > > of WP; the administrators are. If the admins are widely perceived as
> > being
> > > dicks (probably because way to many of them behave like dicks a large
> > > portion of the time), then OTRS is going to continue to be ineffective
> at
> > > changing the perception of WP as unfriendly and more concerned with
> > > protecting territory than having accurate information.
> >
> >
> > I think that's a bit of an inside view. The outside world can't tell
> > an admin from a non-admin, there aren't generally little tags on
> > people's sigs. So the problem is more general dickishness, not
> > specifically admin dickishness.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, outsiders like to have someone central to
> > approach, e.g. the email address.
> >
> > (I vaguely understand someone gave Roth/his biographer the wrong
> > answer, i.e. needing a secondary source rather than a referenceable
> > self-statement. That's a different problem, of course.)
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> >
> I figured out where; there is also UTRS (note the U) which is
> a separately maintained support tool (staffed by English Wikipedia admins)
> for  requesting unblocks.
>
> We probably need to look into how people are filtered to these things.
>
> (I also am not sure why we have UTRS over OTRS, and why the participants
> are not told to pass such issues onto OTRS who are more experienced in
> handling them).
>
> Tom
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