Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

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Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Tony Sidaway
Shortly after I thought we'd finally killed off the habit of excessive
polling, an apologetic, humorous and evidently quite common meme
appeared on Wikipedia: the "!vote".

Unlike the "vote", the "!vote" seems to afford the author the latitude
to falsely claim that he is opposed to polls and is not in fact
engaged in a polling exercise.

In short, a "!vote" is simply a way of recasting polls so as to avoid
calling them polls.  "!Polls?"

The reason we avoid polls?  Because they lead to vote-counting
(counting "!votes" is the same thing even if we're supposed to pretend
that a "!vote! is not the same as a vote).  Because they lead to
taking sides.  Because they destroy efforts at compromise.  Because in
the worst case they encourage people to create a separate section for
people who agree with one another to congregate their comments, where
there is no danger of their comments being mistaken for attempts to
reach consensus by discussion.

I'm seeing ban discussions on [[WP:AN]] being turned into polls, and
attempts to undo this are resisted by people who apparently believe
they're following Wikipedia policy.

It's 2009. Why is this happening?

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Emily Monroe
> I'm seeing ban discussions on [[WP:AN]] being turned into polls, and  
> attempts to undo this are resisted by people who apparently believe  
> they're following Wikipedia policy.

I tend to avoid [[WP:AN]]--I don't need moar dramah--but if this is  
true, then it shouldn't be happening.

Emily
On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> Shortly after I thought we'd finally killed off the habit of excessive
> polling, an apologetic, humorous and evidently quite common meme
> appeared on Wikipedia: the "!vote".
>
> Unlike the "vote", the "!vote" seems to afford the author the latitude
> to falsely claim that he is opposed to polls and is not in fact
> engaged in a polling exercise.
>
> In short, a "!vote" is simply a way of recasting polls so as to avoid
> calling them polls.  "!Polls?"
>
> The reason we avoid polls?  Because they lead to vote-counting
> (counting "!votes" is the same thing even if we're supposed to pretend
> that a "!vote! is not the same as a vote).  Because they lead to
> taking sides.  Because they destroy efforts at compromise.  Because in
> the worst case they encourage people to create a separate section for
> people who agree with one another to congregate their comments, where
> there is no danger of their comments being mistaken for attempts to
> reach consensus by discussion.
>
> I'm seeing ban discussions on [[WP:AN]] being turned into polls, and
> attempts to undo this are resisted by people who apparently believe
> they're following Wikipedia policy.
>
> It's 2009. Why is this happening?
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway
2009/8/28 Tony Sidaway <[hidden email]>:
> It's 2009. Why is this happening?

Because voting is the only practical way of a large number of people
making a decision. The policies date back to when we were a small
project and could actually discuss things and reach a consensus, that
just isn't the case any more for anything but the smallest of issues
(like content disputes on individual articles, they still work by
consensus sometimes). In order to make reality fit policy we add a
"!". It's a kind of legal fiction, I suppose.

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway
Tony Sidaway<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Shortly after I thought we'd finally killed off the habit of excessive
> polling, an apologetic, humorous and evidently quite common meme
> appeared on Wikipedia: the "!vote".
>
> Unlike the "vote", the "!vote" seems to afford the author the latitude
> to falsely claim that he is opposed to polls and is not in fact
> engaged in a polling exercise.

Seems to me the !vote is a way of recognising the fact that the
process is very much like a poll, without actually submitting to it.
If you vote and lose, you have to accept the outcome. If you !vote and
lose, you are entitled to demand a determination of consensus.

Part of me thinks the !vote thing is retarded, but part of me sees
some sense in it. It's not a real vote, but it's not genuine consensus
building either.

Steve

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Al Tally
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:39 AM, Tony Sidaway <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Shortly after I thought we'd finally killed off the habit of excessive
> polling, an apologetic, humorous and evidently quite common meme
> appeared on Wikipedia: the "!vote".
>
> Unlike the "vote", the "!vote" seems to afford the author the latitude
> to falsely claim that he is opposed to polls and is not in fact
> engaged in a polling exercise.
>
> In short, a "!vote" is simply a way of recasting polls so as to avoid
> calling them polls.  "!Polls?"
>
> The reason we avoid polls?  Because they lead to vote-counting
> (counting "!votes" is the same thing even if we're supposed to pretend
> that a "!vote! is not the same as a vote).  Because they lead to
> taking sides.  Because they destroy efforts at compromise.  Because in
> the worst case they encourage people to create a separate section for
> people who agree with one another to congregate their comments, where
> there is no danger of their comments being mistaken for attempts to
> reach consensus by discussion.
>
> I'm seeing ban discussions on [[WP:AN]] being turned into polls, and
> attempts to undo this are resisted by people who apparently believe
> they're following Wikipedia policy.
>
> It's 2009. Why is this happening?
>

Polling and voting is a good way to see what people think without having to
wade through a mass of comments.

--
Alex
(User:Majorly)
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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Tony Sidaway
On 8/28/09, Al Tally <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Polling and voting is a good way to see what people think without having to
> wade through a mass of comments.

If you can't be bothered to engage in discussion, I agree that voting
or "!voting" is the way to go.

You can't build consensus by polling or "!polling".  You can't make a
decision based on consensus if you can't be bothered to read.

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Emily Monroe
> You can't build consensus by polling or "!polling".  You can't make  
> a decision based on consensus if you can't be bothered to read.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Emily
On Aug 27, 2009, at 7:50 PM, Tony Sidaway wrote:

> On 8/28/09, Al Tally <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Polling and voting is a good way to see what people think without  
>> having to
>> wade through a mass of comments.
>
> If you can't be bothered to engage in discussion, I agree that voting
> or "!voting" is the way to go.
>
> You can't build consensus by polling or "!polling".  You can't make a
> decision based on consensus if you can't be bothered to read.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Tony Sidaway
2009/8/28 Tony Sidaway <[hidden email]>:

> On 8/28/09, Al Tally <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Polling and voting is a good way to see what people think without having to
>> wade through a mass of comments.
>
> If you can't be bothered to engage in discussion, I agree that voting
> or "!voting" is the way to go.
>
> You can't build consensus by polling or "!polling".  You can't make a
> decision based on consensus if you can't be bothered to read.

You can't make a decision based on consensus when there are dozens of
interested parties, full stop. A true consensus requires everyone to
agree (or, at least, not object). That just isn't going to happen for
even vaguely controversial issues if there are dozens of people. That
is why things like RFA work on "rough consensus", which actually just
means a vote.

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Emily Monroe
> A true consensus requires everyone to agree (or, at least, not  
> object).

You're right.

> That is why things like RFA work on "rough consensus", which  
> actually just means a vote.

See, my vision of "rough consensus" is something like "If you  
eliminate people who !vote without leaving any comment to debate upon,  
and who hasn't participate in the debate elsewhere, or who do  
something like WP:WHYNOT, WP:NOTNOW, or WP:I[DON'T]LIKEIT what do you  
get?" I guess this would be a vote in a sense, albeit a very skewed one.

Emily

On Aug 27, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Tony Sidaway <[hidden email]>:
>> On 8/28/09, Al Tally <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Polling and voting is a good way to see what people think without  
>>> having to
>>> wade through a mass of comments.
>>
>> If you can't be bothered to engage in discussion, I agree that voting
>> or "!voting" is the way to go.
>>
>> You can't build consensus by polling or "!polling".  You can't make a
>> decision based on consensus if you can't be bothered to read.
>
> You can't make a decision based on consensus when there are dozens of
> interested parties, full stop. A true consensus requires everyone to
> agree (or, at least, not object). That just isn't going to happen for
> even vaguely controversial issues if there are dozens of people. That
> is why things like RFA work on "rough consensus", which actually just
> means a vote.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Thomas Dalton
2009/8/28 Emily Monroe <[hidden email]>:

>> A true consensus requires everyone to agree (or, at least, not
>> object).
>
> You're right.
>
>> That is why things like RFA work on "rough consensus", which
>> actually just means a vote.
>
> See, my vision of "rough consensus" is something like "If you
> eliminate people who !vote without leaving any comment to debate upon,
> and who hasn't participate in the debate elsewhere, or who do
> something like WP:WHYNOT, WP:NOTNOW, or WP:I[DON'T]LIKEIT what do you
> get?" I guess this would be a vote in a sense, albeit a very skewed one.

Sure, but that's not what the phrase is actually used to mean.

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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Emily Monroe
> Sure, but that's not what the phrase is actually used to mean.

What does it mean then?

Emily
On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:08 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/8/28 Emily Monroe <[hidden email]>:
>>> A true consensus requires everyone to agree (or, at least, not
>>> object).
>>
>> You're right.
>>
>>> That is why things like RFA work on "rough consensus", which
>>> actually just means a vote.
>>
>> See, my vision of "rough consensus" is something like "If you
>> eliminate people who !vote without leaving any comment to debate  
>> upon,
>> and who hasn't participate in the debate elsewhere, or who do
>> something like WP:WHYNOT, WP:NOTNOW, or WP:I[DON'T]LIKEIT what do you
>> get?" I guess this would be a vote in a sense, albeit a very skewed  
>> one.
>
> Sure, but that's not what the phrase is actually used to mean.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Voting and "!voting", what's the difference?

Thomas Dalton
2009/8/28 Emily Monroe <[hidden email]>:
>> Sure, but that's not what the phrase is actually used to mean.
>
> What does it mean then?

In the context of RFA? It means a vote with a required supermajority
of 75% with some obviously invalid votes discounted and on very rare
occasions (getting rarer each year) exceptional circumstances are
factored in.

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