WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

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WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Jay Walsh
Hi folks - apologies for starting a new thread on this topic...

We've just posted a short blog post on the topic of the unfolding issues
around Italian Wikipedia

http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/04/regarding-recent-events-on-italian-wikipedia/

We've had a few calls to WMF - not many, and we've responded with the basic
messages in this post.

Thanks,
jay

--
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WikimediaFoundation.org
blog.wikimedia.org
+1 (415) 839 6885 x 6609, @jansonw
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
"The Wikimedia Foundation supports the rights of all people to access our
free knowledge content everywhere in the world"

The Wikimedia Foundation supports a damn.

Now, all Wikipedias know that it is allowed to blank the entire site when
community doesn't like things. For example, the image filter.

2011/10/5 Jay Walsh <[hidden email]>

> Hi folks - apologies for starting a new thread on this topic...
>
> We've just posted a short blog post on the topic of the unfolding issues
> around Italian Wikipedia
>
>
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/04/regarding-recent-events-on-italian-wikipedia/
>
> We've had a few calls to WMF - not many, and we've responded with the basic
> messages in this post.
>
> Thanks,
> jay
>
> --
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> blog.wikimedia.org
> +1 (415) 839 6885 x 6609, @jansonw
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Lodewijk
If you even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly don't
understand at all what this law is all about.

Lodewijk

No dia 5 de Outubro de 2011 09:39, emijrp <[hidden email]> escreveu:

> "The Wikimedia Foundation supports the rights of all people to access our
> free knowledge content everywhere in the world"
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation supports a damn.
>
> Now, all Wikipedias know that it is allowed to blank the entire site when
> community doesn't like things. For example, the image filter.
>
> 2011/10/5 Jay Walsh <[hidden email]>
>
> > Hi folks - apologies for starting a new thread on this topic...
> >
> > We've just posted a short blog post on the topic of the unfolding issues
> > around Italian Wikipedia
> >
> >
> >
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/04/regarding-recent-events-on-italian-wikipedia/
> >
> > We've had a few calls to WMF - not many, and we've responded with the
> basic
> > messages in this post.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > jay
> >
> > --
> > Jay Walsh
> > Head of Communications
> > WikimediaFoundation.org
> > blog.wikimedia.org
> > +1 (415) 839 6885 x 6609, @jansonw
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

M. Williamson
If you don't even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly
don't understand at all what some people think the image filter is all
about.

2011/10/5 Lodewijk <[hidden email]>

> If you even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly don't
> understand at all what this law is all about.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> No dia 5 de Outubro de 2011 09:39, emijrp <[hidden email]> escreveu:
>
> > "The Wikimedia Foundation supports the rights of all people to access our
> > free knowledge content everywhere in the world"
> >
> > The Wikimedia Foundation supports a damn.
> >
> > Now, all Wikipedias know that it is allowed to blank the entire site when
> > community doesn't like things. For example, the image filter.
> >
> > 2011/10/5 Jay Walsh <[hidden email]>
> >
> > > Hi folks - apologies for starting a new thread on this topic...
> > >
> > > We've just posted a short blog post on the topic of the unfolding
> issues
> > > around Italian Wikipedia
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/04/regarding-recent-events-on-italian-wikipedia/
> > >
> > > We've had a few calls to WMF - not many, and we've responded with the
> > basic
> > > messages in this post.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > jay
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jay Walsh
> > > Head of Communications
> > > WikimediaFoundation.org
> > > blog.wikimedia.org
> > > +1 (415) 839 6885 x 6609, @jansonw
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Thomas Morton
On 5 October 2011 09:03, M. Williamson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you don't even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly
> don't understand at all what some people think the image filter is all
> about.


Indeed. As a supporter (to some extent) of an image filter; I can entirely
see how it could quite legitimately be seen in the same light by people
opposed to it.

Dismissing that view as "incomparable" is amusingly short sighted.

If anything; such a protest has more legitimacy than this political action -
because it would be a protest against the foundation, hijacking foundation
resources and attempting to inform their readers of the issue they perceive.

I don't approve; but I wish de.wiki good luck if that is the option they
take.

Tom
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Jalo
In reply to this post by M. Williamson
>
> If you don't even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly
> don't understand at all what some people think the image filter is all
> about.
>

You're comparing a wiki without images with a world (the italian world)
without wiki. <mumble> To me, it seems to be "slightly" different
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

M. Williamson
Jalo, it's all about perception: perceived effects and perceived
consequences. People's reactions are based on their perceptions and
judgements, since we're not robots. So if a group of people perceives it to
be equally bad, they may take an equal action, regardless of whether or not
you agree with their action. Acehnese Wikipedians decided to leave Wikimedia
altogether over an issue they clearly felt to be comparable, regardless of
what you or I may think of it.


2011/10/5 Jalo <[hidden email]>

> >
> > If you don't even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly
> > don't understand at all what some people think the image filter is all
> > about.
> >
>
> You're comparing a wiki without images with a world (the italian world)
> without wiki. <mumble> To me, it seems to be "slightly" different
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Thomas Morton
In reply to this post by Jalo
On 5 October 2011 09:26, Jalo <[hidden email]> wrote:

> >
> > If you don't even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly
> > don't understand at all what some people think the image filter is all
> > about.
> >
>
> You're comparing a wiki without images with a world (the italian world)
> without wiki. <mumble> To me, it seems to be "slightly" different


it.wiki are specifically saying that they feel this new law would impact
their ability to provide free and open content.

de.wiki are saying much the same about the image filter...

Tom
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Thomas Goldammer
In reply to this post by Lodewijk
It is comparable, but only partially. That Italian law has an effect
on the content itself, the image filter only on the availability of
the content. But still, both issues are worth a community strike in
the way the Italian community chose, anyway.

Th.

2011/10/5 Lodewijk <[hidden email]>:
> If you even think that is a comparable situation, then you clearly don't
> understand at all what this law is all about.
>
> Lodewijk
>

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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
In reply to this post by Jay Walsh
A good moment to remember this.

*Permit mirror sites.*

When information is available on the web only at one site, its availability
is vulnerable. A local problem—a computer crash, an earthquake or flood, a
budget cut, a change in policy of the school administration—could cut off
access for everyone forever. To guard against loss of the encyclopedia's
material, we should make sure that every piece of the encyclopedia is
available from many sites on the Internet, and that new copies can be put up
if some disappear.

There is no need to set up an organization or a bureaucracy to do this,
because Internet users like to set up “mirror sites” which hold duplicate
copies of interesting web pages. What we must do in advance is ensure that
this is legally permitted.

Therefore, each encyclopedia article and each course should explicitly grant
irrevocable permission for anyone to make verbatim copies available on
mirror sites. This permission should be one of the basic stated principles
of the free encyclopedia.

Some day there may be systematic efforts to ensure that each article and
course is replicated in many copies—perhaps at least once on each of the six
inhabited continents. This would be a natural extension of the mission of
archiving that libraries undertake today. But it would be premature to make
formal plans for this now. It is sufficient for now to resolve to make sure
people have permission to do this mirroring when they get around to it.
 —Richard M. Stallman <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_M._Stallman>, The
Free Universal Encyclopedia and Learning
Resource<http://www.gnu.org/encyclopedia/free-encyclopedia.html>



2011/10/5 Jay Walsh <[hidden email]>

> Hi folks - apologies for starting a new thread on this topic...
>
> We've just posted a short blog post on the topic of the unfolding issues
> around Italian Wikipedia
>
>
> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/04/regarding-recent-events-on-italian-wikipedia/
>
> We've had a few calls to WMF - not many, and we've responded with the basic
> messages in this post.
>
> Thanks,
> jay
>
> --
> Jay Walsh
> Head of Communications
> WikimediaFoundation.org
> blog.wikimedia.org
> +1 (415) 839 6885 x 6609, @jansonw
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Huib Laurens
<snip>
Therefore, each encyclopedia article and each course should explicitly grant
irrevocable permission for anyone to make verbatim copies available on
mirror sites. This permission should be one of the basic stated principles
of the free encyclopedia.

<snip>

That is already done with our free licensing...
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
Of course. I'm not speaking about the right to mirror, but the need of
mirrors.

By the way, our free licenses also need to show the text authors. Thousand
people re-use the contents and link to the Wikipedia page. As far as I know,
no history is available now at Italian Wikipedia to look up. CC-BY-SA/GFDL
violation?

2011/10/5 Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>

> <snip>
> Therefore, each encyclopedia article and each course should explicitly
> grant
> irrevocable permission for anyone to make verbatim copies available on
> mirror sites. This permission should be one of the basic stated principles
> of the free encyclopedia.
>
> <snip>
>
> That is already done with our free licensing...
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Nathan Awrich
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:48 AM, emijrp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Of course. I'm not speaking about the right to mirror, but the need of
> mirrors.
>
> By the way, our free licenses also need to show the text authors. Thousand
> people re-use the contents and link to the Wikipedia page. As far as I know,
> no history is available now at Italian Wikipedia to look up. CC-BY-SA/GFDL
> violation?
>

There's no content either.

And, the e-mail Huib replied to appeared to focus on permission for
mirrors. As he said, there are many and it is already permitted,
although many do not properly comply with the license terms. Enforcing
the content licenses (as distinct from trademarks or content
copyrighted by the WMF) is not the remit of the WMF, nor is promoting
mirrors.

Nathan

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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Huib Laurens
In reply to this post by Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
There is no content now, so there is no violation... You need to show the
content before you can violate anything.

I was responding on your part about giving the right to mirror, there is no
need for that cuz its already there. We even provide dumps for mirrors so
they can easy import a wikipedia version.

Best,

Huib
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

onthebrinkandfalling
In reply to this post by Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada

-----Original Message-----
From: emijrp <[hidden email]>


>By the way, our free licenses also need to show the text authors. Thousand
>people re-use the contents and link to the Wikipedia page. As far as I know,
>no history is available now at Italian Wikipedia to look up. CC-BY-SA/GFDL
>violation?


If that were really an issue, Articles would never be allowed to be deleted. An example:
http://unicornbacon.com/blog/2007/05/06/weird-wiki-markovian-parallax-denigrate/ has content from Wikipedia,
with a link to the article on EnWp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markovian_parallax_denigrate The article
has since been deleted via AfD - so all re-use of that article that existed prior to deletion now has broken attribution.


Of course, I'm not sure if WMF has really looked in-depth at this, from a legal angle.


-Brink
 
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Thomas Morton
On 5 October 2011 16:07, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: emijrp <[hidden email]>
>
>
> >By the way, our free licenses also need to show the text authors. Thousand
> >people re-use the contents and link to the Wikipedia page. As far as I
> know,
> >no history is available now at Italian Wikipedia to look up. CC-BY-SA/GFDL
> >violation?
>
>
> If that were really an issue, Articles would never be allowed to be
> deleted. An example:
>
> http://unicornbacon.com/blog/2007/05/06/weird-wiki-markovian-parallax-denigrate/has content from Wikipedia,
> with a link to the article on EnWp:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markovian_parallax_denigrate The article
> has since been deleted via AfD - so all re-use of that article that existed
> prior to deletion now has broken attribution.
>
>
> Of course, I'm not sure if WMF has really looked in-depth at this, from a
> legal angle.
>

This actually came up recently on English Wikipedia relating to someone
mirroring deleted articles. I think the conclusion was that they did need to
list the contributors somehow to comply with the license.

Tom
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

theo10011
Possibly relevant update:

http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/news.php?newsid=157111  (might need
translation)

Theo

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Thomas Morton
<[hidden email]>wrote:

> On 5 October 2011 16:07, <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: emijrp <[hidden email]>
> >
> >
> > >By the way, our free licenses also need to show the text authors.
> Thousand
> > >people re-use the contents and link to the Wikipedia page. As far as I
> > know,
> > >no history is available now at Italian Wikipedia to look up.
> CC-BY-SA/GFDL
> > >violation?
> >
> >
> > If that were really an issue, Articles would never be allowed to be
> > deleted. An example:
> >
> >
> http://unicornbacon.com/blog/2007/05/06/weird-wiki-markovian-parallax-denigrate/hascontent from Wikipedia,
> > with a link to the article on EnWp:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markovian_parallax_denigrate The article
> > has since been deleted via AfD - so all re-use of that article that
> existed
> > prior to deletion now has broken attribution.
> >
> >
> > Of course, I'm not sure if WMF has really looked in-depth at this, from a
> > legal angle.
> >
>
> This actually came up recently on English Wikipedia relating to someone
> mirroring deleted articles. I think the conclusion was that they did need
> to
> list the contributors somehow to comply with the license.
>
> Tom
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
In reply to this post by Huib Laurens
When people reuse content in other websites/blogs/etc, they have to copy the
article text and link to Italian Wikipedia where you can check the entire
history and authors. That is how attribution is given. It is explained here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content

Now, most of all the attributions to Italian Wikipedia contents on the
Internet are broken.

2011/10/5 Huib Laurens <[hidden email]>

> There is no content now, so there is no violation... You need to show the
> content before you can violate anything.
>
> I was responding on your part about giving the right to mirror, there is no
> need for that cuz its already there. We even provide dumps for mirrors so
> they can easy import a wikipedia version.
>
> Best,
>
> Huib
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Jalo
In reply to this post by theo10011
>
> Possibly relevant update:
>
> http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/news.php?newsid=157111  (might need
> translation)
>
> Theo
>

The comma has been discussed into the "Comitato dei Nove", that is a simply
discussion committee. They have proposed (it seems) to apply the law only to
internet newspapers, magazines, etc., and not to blog and other amatorial
sites (like wiki).

It's just a proposal, not so much. A little step that doesn't bind the
parliament
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Re: WMF blog post on Italian Wikipedia

Teofilo
In reply to this post by Emilio J. Rodríguez-Posada
Le 5 octobre 2011 17:23, emijrp <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> When people reuse content in other websites/blogs/etc, they have to copy the
> article text and link to Italian Wikipedia where you can check the entire
> history and authors. That is how attribution is given. It is explained here
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reusing_Wikipedia_content
>
> Now, most of all the attributions to Italian Wikipedia contents on the
> Internet are broken.

This guideline is wrong. The 2009 licencing update
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Licensing_update was wrong. And the
"You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution" byline
on edit box is an infringement of author's moral right. Instead of the
bad Creative Commons license, the good GFDL license should apply to
Wikipedia and be stricltly enforced with its requirement to "Preserve
the section Entitled "History" : http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

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