WMF for proprietary video format

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

WMF for proprietary video format

Ilario Valdelli
Dear all,
there is an ongoing discussion to support in Wikipedia also the proprietary video format:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video

Regards


--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli
Skype: Ilario Valdelli

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Emmanuel Engelhart-4
Le 16/01/2014 10:42, Ilario Valdelli a écrit :
> there is an ongoing discussion to support in Wikipedia also the
> proprietary video format:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video

This is IMO obvious, but maybe still essential to remember it:
"Without free format, there is no real free knowledge possible."

A simple example: introduction of full MPG4 support would be definitely
a problem for project like Kiwix ans so one for the "Offline
Dissemination Program".

Although, I really appreciate the strategy to improve video support in
Commons (we really need it), supporting MPG4 is certainly not the good
way. There are other things to improve/fix, which are more urgent and
don't hurt our mission.

Emmanuel
--
Volunteer
Technology, GLAM, Trainings
Zurich
+41 797 670 398

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Gabriel Thullen
Thank you, Emmanuel, for pointing out the obvious.
Instead of introducing full MPG4 support, we could support the development of a tool to transform a MPG4 file into an Open format which could be used on Commons.



On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Emmanuel Engelhart <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 16/01/2014 10:42, Ilario Valdelli a écrit :
> there is an ongoing discussion to support in Wikipedia also the
> proprietary video format:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video

This is IMO obvious, but maybe still essential to remember it:
"Without free format, there is no real free knowledge possible."

A simple example: introduction of full MPG4 support would be definitely
a problem for project like Kiwix ans so one for the "Offline
Dissemination Program".

Although, I really appreciate the strategy to improve video support in
Commons (we really need it), supporting MPG4 is certainly not the good
way. There are other things to improve/fix, which are more urgent and
don't hurt our mission.

Emmanuel
--
Volunteer
Technology, GLAM, Trainings
Zurich
<a href="tel:%2B41%20797%20670%20398" value="+41797670398">+41 797 670 398

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l


_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Emmanuel Engelhart-4
Many Wikimedians use Fireogg:
http://firefogg.org/

Le 16/01/2014 12:59, Gabriel Thullen a écrit :

> Thank you, Emmanuel, for pointing out the obvious.
> Instead of introducing full MPG4 support, we could support the
> development of a tool to transform a MPG4 file into an Open format which
> could be used on Commons.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Emmanuel Engelhart
> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Le 16/01/2014 10:42, Ilario Valdelli a écrit :
>     > there is an ongoing discussion to support in Wikipedia also the
>     > proprietary video format:
>     >
>     https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video
>
>     This is IMO obvious, but maybe still essential to remember it:
>     "Without free format, there is no real free knowledge possible."
>
>     A simple example: introduction of full MPG4 support would be definitely
>     a problem for project like Kiwix ans so one for the "Offline
>     Dissemination Program".
>
>     Although, I really appreciate the strategy to improve video support in
>     Commons (we really need it), supporting MPG4 is certainly not the good
>     way. There are other things to improve/fix, which are more urgent and
>     don't hurt our mission.
>
>     Emmanuel
>     --
>     Volunteer
>     Technology, GLAM, Trainings
>     Zurich
>     +41 797 670 398 <tel:%2B41%20797%20670%20398>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
>     Wikimediach-l mailing list
>     https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
> Wikimediach-l mailing list
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
>


--
Volunteer
Technology, GLAM, Trainings
Zurich
+41 797 670 398

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Manuel Schneider-3
In reply to this post by Gabriel Thullen
Am 16.01.2014 12:59, schrieb Gabriel Thullen:
> Instead of introducing full MPG4 support, we could support the
> development of a tool to transform a MPG4 file into an Open format which
> could be used on Commons.

This is what I am looking for since a longer time and even made a
proposal to the WMF, which got dismissed due to the patent problematics.

The point is that we don't just need a conversion service but also a way
allowing us to collaboratively work on videos and store our raw videos
(this is where MP4 / H.264 comes in).

So if the WMF can sort out the legal problem on accepting H.264, I would
vote to only use it as an input format (which is one of the options on
the RfC page). With that done, we could finally implement a video
solution allowing collaborative editing and storage of raw material.

The output always should be a free codec / format, fully agree with that.

Find a description on what I mean here:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-January/129671.html


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Yann Heurtaux
We should talk a bit more with the Mozilla Foundation about that.

I've seen how far you can push video editing for the (social) web with Popcorn at Mozilla Festival, last october in London; there's definitely an interest, a frustration and high expectations by a lot of Wikimedians AND news professionals in this field.

Same goes for sound in Commons: we have to be at least on par with Soundcloud, some day...


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 16.01.2014 12:59, schrieb Gabriel Thullen:
> Instead of introducing full MPG4 support, we could support the
> development of a tool to transform a MPG4 file into an Open format which
> could be used on Commons.

This is what I am looking for since a longer time and even made a
proposal to the WMF, which got dismissed due to the patent problematics.

The point is that we don't just need a conversion service but also a way
allowing us to collaboratively work on videos and store our raw videos
(this is where MP4 / H.264 comes in).

So if the WMF can sort out the legal problem on accepting H.264, I would
vote to only use it as an input format (which is one of the options on
the RfC page). With that done, we could finally implement a video
solution allowing collaborative editing and storage of raw material.

The output always should be a free codec / format, fully agree with that.

Find a description on what I mean here:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-January/129671.html


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l



--
- Yann Heurtaux
Freelance Conversationalist
@shalf - http://shalf.me
+41 78 845 9266

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Ilario Valdelli
Personally I am in contact with the School of Cinema of Lugano to investigate a partnership and as soon I said that Commons accepts only open format like ogg... there was a general unsatisfaction.

The proposal was to upload in another website in proprietary format and after convert in open format.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Yann Heurtaux <[hidden email]> wrote:
We should talk a bit more with the Mozilla Foundation about that.

I've seen how far you can push video editing for the (social) web with Popcorn at Mozilla Festival, last october in London; there's definitely an interest, a frustration and high expectations by a lot of Wikimedians AND news professionals in this field.

Same goes for sound in Commons: we have to be at least on par with Soundcloud, some day...


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 16.01.2014 12:59, schrieb Gabriel Thullen:
> Instead of introducing full MPG4 support, we could support the
> development of a tool to transform a MPG4 file into an Open format which
> could be used on Commons.

This is what I am looking for since a longer time and even made a
proposal to the WMF, which got dismissed due to the patent problematics.

The point is that we don't just need a conversion service but also a way
allowing us to collaboratively work on videos and store our raw videos
(this is where MP4 / H.264 comes in).

So if the WMF can sort out the legal problem on accepting H.264, I would
vote to only use it as an input format (which is one of the options on
the RfC page). With that done, we could finally implement a video
solution allowing collaborative editing and storage of raw material.

The output always should be a free codec / format, fully agree with that.

Find a description on what I mean here:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-January/129671.html


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2821%29%2034066-22" value="+41213406622" target="_blank">+41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l



--
- Yann Heurtaux
Freelance Conversationalist
@shalf - http://shalf.me
<a href="tel:%2B41%2078%20845%209266" value="+41788459266" target="_blank">+41 78 845 9266

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l




--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli
Skype: Ilario Valdelli

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Manuel Schneider-3
Am 16.01.2014 15:09, schrieb Ilario Valdelli:
> Personally I am in contact with the School of Cinema of Lugano to
> investigate a partnership and as soon I said that Commons accepts only
> open format like ogg... there was a general unsatisfaction.
>
> The proposal was to upload in another website in proprietary format and
> after convert in open format.

I have done a project together with Nando with Schweizer Fernsehen (SF).
It is quite simple to make a batch processing and upload - eg. a DVD
full of videos in the original file format plus an Excel sheet with the
meta-data of these file. I run a script which converts the files to
WebM, sets the metadata and uploads the files to Commons.


/Manuel

--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Ilario Valdelli
Yes... the problem is to explain what is ogg.

Doing transcoding with an unknown format may be a challenge.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 16.01.2014 15:09, schrieb Ilario Valdelli:
> Personally I am in contact with the School of Cinema of Lugano to
> investigate a partnership and as soon I said that Commons accepts only
> open format like ogg... there was a general unsatisfaction.
>
> The proposal was to upload in another website in proprietary format and
> after convert in open format.

I have done a project together with Nando with Schweizer Fernsehen (SF).
It is quite simple to make a batch processing and upload - eg. a DVD
full of videos in the original file format plus an Excel sheet with the
meta-data of these file. I run a script which converts the files to
WebM, sets the metadata and uploads the files to Commons.


/Manuel

--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2821%29%2034066-22" value="+41213406622">+41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli
Skype: Ilario Valdelli

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Manuel Schneider-3
Am 16.01.2014 15:28, schrieb Ilario Valdelli:
> Yes... the problem is to explain what is ogg.
>
> Doing transcoding with an unknown format may be a challenge.

there is no challenge, they simply don't have to deal with it at all.
They give the data in their format, we convert it. Once on Commons you
can view it in the browser without needing to know what the hell Ogg (or
WebM) is.

And by the way, I wouldn't use Ogg anyway but WebM, which is much
broader used. It's a format by Google, that should tell enough to those
who don't know what it is.
Firefox and several other browsers have WebM - some even Ogg - already
built-in.

/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Ilario Valdelli
Yes, exactly.

They produce a proprietary format uploaded in another website and someone will take in charge the conversion.

Regards


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 16.01.2014 15:28, schrieb Ilario Valdelli:
> Yes... the problem is to explain what is ogg.
>
> Doing transcoding with an unknown format may be a challenge.

there is no challenge, they simply don't have to deal with it at all.
They give the data in their format, we convert it. Once on Commons you
can view it in the browser without needing to know what the hell Ogg (or
WebM) is.

And by the way, I wouldn't use Ogg anyway but WebM, which is much
broader used. It's a format by Google, that should tell enough to those
who don't know what it is.
Firefox and several other browsers have WebM - some even Ogg - already
built-in.

/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2821%29%2034066-22" value="+41213406622">+41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli
Skype: Ilario Valdelli

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Hartwig Thomas
In reply to this post by Ilario Valdelli

MP4 is not proprietary as such – only some codecs are.

Hartwig

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ilario Valdelli
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:43 AM
To: Mailing list for Wikimedia CH
Subject: [Wikimediach-l] WMF for proprietary video format

 

Dear all,

there is an ongoing discussion to support in Wikipedia also the proprietary video format:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Requests_for_comment/MP4_Video

Regards



--

Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich

Wikipedia: Ilario

Facebook: Ilario Valdelli

Twitter: Ilario Valdelli

Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli

Skype: Ilario Valdelli

Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Manuel Schneider-3
Am 16.01.2014 16:10, schrieb Hartwig Thomas:
> MP4 is not proprietary as such – only some codecs are.

Right.

MP4 is a container format, such as AVI, MOV, OGG or WebM.

That's why I am talking in my explanation about MP4 / H.264 or just
H.264 - which is the problematic codec.

When we talk about Wikimedia Commons and video, Ogg means Ogg/Theora and
WebM means VP8, the two free (as in speech) video codecs we are
accepting at the moment.
H.264 is for individual users also free but as in beer, not speech. And
that is the core of the discussion.


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Gilbert Conus
Dear all,

Emmanuel's remarks are not so obvious. Is there a strong motivation to force holding free content on a free support ? And if the answer is "yes", what is it ? How to understand this section: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_scope#Must_be_an_allowable_free_file_format ? In my opinion it sounds very hypocrite as every photosensor back-end stage transforms the captured light in a proprietary format and only a software processing transforms this proprietary format into a free format (this software may be embedded in the light capture device, such a camera and this step appears to be transparent) (this is the same for sound).

Thus, content (from an abstract point of view) remains the same. Also my question is : what does it change to impute responsability to the user to transform the support format of its file into a free format or to perform this transformation directly on the host repository (in the present case Commons) ? In both case, input, output and processing are the same, only changes the place where it is performed.

Finally, has the possibility to store free content in a non-free format, allowing a wider sharing of knowledge, been considered ? And I don't understand why it may have a problem for kiwix. If it is not possible to integrate non-free formats, why not simply modify them during the acquisition process ?

Regards,
Gilbert


2014/1/16 Manuel Schneider <[hidden email]>
Am 16.01.2014 16:10, schrieb Hartwig Thomas:
> MP4 is not proprietary as such – only some codecs are.

Right.

MP4 is a container format, such as AVI, MOV, OGG or WebM.

That's why I am talking in my explanation about MP4 / H.264 or just
H.264 - which is the problematic codec.

When we talk about Wikimedia Commons and video, Ogg means Ogg/Theora and
WebM means VP8, the two free (as in speech) video codecs we are
accepting at the moment.
H.264 is for individual users also free but as in beer, not speech. And
that is the core of the discussion.


/Manuel
--
Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Lausanne, <a href="tel:%2B41%20%2821%29%2034066-22" value="+41213406622">+41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l



--
Gilbert Conus

Ch. de la Villaire 14b
CH-1040 Échallens

+4178 839 5973

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: WMF for proprietary video format

Emmanuel Engelhart-4
Salut Gilbert

Le 16/01/2014 18:22, Gilbert Conus a écrit :
> Emmanuel's remarks are not so obvious. Is there a strong motivation to
> force holding free content on a free support ? And if the answer is
> "yes", what is it ?

Non-free file formats, non-free codecs add barriers (legal, and pretty
often this generates technical ones) to the free re-use of content.
That's why there is a pretty fundamental contradiction using them with
free content.

> How to understand this
> section: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Project_scope#Must_be_an_allowable_free_file_format ?
> In my opinion it sounds very hypocrite as every photosensor back-end
> stage transforms the captured light in a proprietary format and only a
> software processing transforms this proprietary format into a free
> format (this software may be embedded in the light capture device, such
> a camera and this step appears to be transparent) (this is the same for
> sound).

Commons requires a trans-coding from the device proprietary format. This
seems to me to be clear enough to avoid any hypocrisy suspicions.
Camera manufacturer don't have exactly the same agenda like ours -
unfortunately.

> Thus, content (from an abstract point of view) remains the same. Also my
> question is : what does it change to impute responsability to the user
> to transform the support format of its file into a free format or to
> perform this transformation directly on the host repository (in the
> present case Commons) ? In both case, input, output and processing are
> the same, only changes the place where it is performed.

What you tell is only one of the two propositions (three with the MP4
rejection) of the survey (the second one).

Although I perfectly agree with your remark and this sounds, to me too,
to be a reasonable solution, I tend to prefer to reject completely the
MPEG4 stuff.

I believe that free format usage should be encouraged; like free
licenses, they are an essential stone to achieve a free knowledge
society. Wikimedia being big enough to change the game, this would be a
fault to not use this power to push in the right direction.

> Finally, has the possibility to store free content in a non-free format,
> allowing a wider sharing of knowledge, been considered ? And I don't
> understand why it may have a problem for kiwix. If it is not possible to
> integrate non-free formats, why not simply modify them during the
> acquisition process ?

I think I have already answered this before. Par of the misunderstanding
seems to come from the fact that I really oppose to the proposition (1)
and you seems to speak from the proposition (2) which is really less
dangerous.

Emmanuel
--
Volunteer
Technology, GLAM, Trainings
Zurich
+41 797 670 398

_______________________________________________
http://wikimedia.ch Wikimedia CH website
Wikimediach-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediach-l