[[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

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[[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

David Gerard-2
Interesting. Have a look. So far 52 people have signed up to watch it
closely. Only objection I can think of is that it still doesn't
involve notifying the article creator. But it strikes me as a damn
good idea for getting the obvious off AFD and helping alleviate
AFD-fatigue.


- d.
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Sydney Poore aka FloNight
I used PROD this week to help a new user. Their very  first article was
speedy del. I switched the tag to PROD. Less WP:BITE. Before I could
leave a message on both editor's pages someone had fixed the article.
Found references, re-named it, and took the PROD tag off. The editor
that nom for speedy was nice about it. Seems like a good process. Better
way of communicating about borderline articles that need some investigation.

Sydney aka FloNight

David Gerard wrote:

>Interesting. Have a look. So far 52 people have signed up to watch it
>closely. Only objection I can think of is that it still doesn't
>involve notifying the article creator. But it strikes me as a damn
>good idea for getting the obvious off AFD and helping alleviate
>AFD-fatigue.
>
>
>- d.
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>
>  
>

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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Justin Cormack
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2

On 10 Feb 2006, at 20:01, David Gerard wrote:

> Interesting. Have a look. So far 52 people have signed up to watch it
> closely. Only objection I can think of is that it still doesn't
> involve notifying the article creator. But it strikes me as a damn
> good idea for getting the obvious off AFD and helping alleviate
> AFD-fatigue.

I looked through the articles and it all seemed reasonable. Will
have another scan soon.

Lets see how it affects AfD.

Notify author would be nice - I hope people do it even if its optional.

Justinc

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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 2/10/06, Justin Cormack <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 10 Feb 2006, at 20:01, David Gerard wrote:
>
> > Interesting. Have a look. So far 52 people have signed up to watch it
> > closely. Only objection I can think of is that it still doesn't
> > involve notifying the article creator. But it strikes me as a damn
> > good idea for getting the obvious off AFD and helping alleviate
> > AFD-fatigue.
>
> I looked through the articles and it all seemed reasonable. Will
> have another scan soon.
>
> Lets see how it affects AfD.
>
> Notify author would be nice - I hope people do it even if its optional.
>
> Justinc


Not  a bad idea. It gives people time to work on an article and doesn't get
the immediate hit your article is being AFDed, but is there some safeguard
in place against people removing the tag?

If someone removes an AFD tag, you still have the central listing. What
happens if they remove a prod tag? Do I have to watchlist it and hope it is
the last edit on the article if I check it?

Mgm
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Stephen Bain
On 2/11/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not  a bad idea. It gives people time to work on an article and doesn't get
> the immediate hit your article is being AFDed, but is there some safeguard
> in place against people removing the tag?
>
> If someone removes an AFD tag, you still have the central listing. What
> happens if they remove a prod tag? Do I have to watchlist it and hope it is
> the last edit on the article if I check it?

>From the proposal page, it seems that removing the tag is the method
for contesting deletion. The remover is advised to improve the
article, to tag it for cleanup or similar, or to send it to AfD, but
these are all suggestions.

Much of it would seem to depend on the person who first addresses the
tag, and on which of these courses of action they choose. Hopefully
people will choose wisely!

--
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 2/11/06, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/11/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Not  a bad idea. It gives people time to work on an article and doesn't
> get
> > the immediate hit your article is being AFDed, but is there some
> safeguard
> > in place against people removing the tag?
> >
> > If someone removes an AFD tag, you still have the central listing. What
> > happens if they remove a prod tag? Do I have to watchlist it and hope it
> is
> > the last edit on the article if I check it?
>
> >From the proposal page, it seems that removing the tag is the method
> for contesting deletion. The remover is advised to improve the
> article, to tag it for cleanup or similar, or to send it to AfD, but
> these are all suggestions.
>
> Much of it would seem to depend on the person who first addresses the
> tag, and on which of these courses of action they choose. Hopefully
> people will choose wisely!


But suppose for a moment this is someone with no intention of improving the
article or taking it to AFD because they think they own the article. How
would one notice?

Mgm
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Guy Chapman aka JzG
>But suppose for a moment this is someone with no intention of improving the
>article or taking it to AFD because they think they own the article. How
>would one notice?

Watchlist of the nominator?

Guy


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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
I like it. I still prefer pure wiki deletion, but this is pretty similar in
a lot of important respects. I'd endorse it as a complete replacement of
AFD.

Ryan

On 2/10/06, David Gerard <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Interesting. Have a look. So far 52 people have signed up to watch it
> closely. Only objection I can think of is that it still doesn't
> involve notifying the article creator. But it strikes me as a damn
> good idea for getting the obvious off AFD and helping alleviate
> AFD-fatigue.
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

geni
No one appears to be screaming about it yet so it appears so far to be a sucess.

--
geni
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Philip Welch
In reply to this post by Ryan Delaney
> I like it. I still prefer pure wiki deletion, but this is pretty  
> similar in
> a lot of important respects. I'd endorse it as a complete  
> replacement of
> AFD.

That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only  
uncontested.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Ryan Delaney
On 2/10/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only
> uncontested.


Any particular reason why?
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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Philip Welch
>> That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only
>> uncontested.
>
> Any particular reason why?

All you need to stop PROD is one person to remove the tag. In a  
dispute, people would edit war over the PROD tag until finally  
settling down and having a consensus-finding discussion—i.e.,  
engaging in the AfD process.

This is why PROD is only a partial replacement. That said, we can  
reform AfD so that we don't launch headfirst into the voting (yes.  
VOTING)  process and actually discuss our concerns first, with the  
help of an impartial admin-facilitator whose job is to carry out the  
ultimate decision. This sounds laborious but if PROD can handle most  
of the load we can spare the resources.

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Sydney Poore aka FloNight
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
Watchlist. That's how I knew that someone was working on the article I
listed.
Sydney aka FloNight

MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

>On 2/11/06, Stephen Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>On 2/11/06, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Not  a bad idea. It gives people time to work on an article and doesn't
>>>      
>>>
>>get
>>    
>>
>>>the immediate hit your article is being AFDed, but is there some
>>>      
>>>
>>safeguard
>>    
>>
>>>in place against people removing the tag?
>>>
>>>If someone removes an AFD tag, you still have the central listing. What
>>>happens if they remove a prod tag? Do I have to watchlist it and hope it
>>>      
>>>
>>is
>>    
>>
>>>the last edit on the article if I check it?
>>>      
>>>
>>>From the proposal page, it seems that removing the tag is the method
>>for contesting deletion. The remover is advised to improve the
>>article, to tag it for cleanup or similar, or to send it to AfD, but
>>these are all suggestions.
>>
>>Much of it would seem to depend on the person who first addresses the
>>tag, and on which of these courses of action they choose. Hopefully
>>people will choose wisely!
>>    
>>
>
>
>But suppose for a moment this is someone with no intention of improving the
>article or taking it to AFD because they think they own the article. How
>would one notice?
>
>Mgm
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>
>  
>

--
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Go Bengals!


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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Ryan Delaney
In reply to this post by Philip Welch
On 2/10/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> >> That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only
> >> uncontested.
> >
> > Any particular reason why?
>
> All you need to stop PROD is one person to remove the tag. In a
> dispute, people would edit war over the PROD tag until finally
> settling down and having a consensus-finding discussion—i.e.,
> engaging in the AfD process.


You are aware that bald reversion is not allowed and that rules like
[[WP:3RR]] -- or any admin with sense -- will stop it, right? Do you know
that this is exactly the same kind of canned non-objection that an
uninitiated person makes against the very idea of an encyclopedia that
anyone can edit?

This is why PROD is only a partial replacement. That said, we can
> reform AfD so that we don't launch headfirst into the voting (yes.
> VOTING)  process and actually discuss our concerns first, with the
> help of an impartial admin-facilitator whose job is to carry out the
> ultimate decision. This sounds laborious but if PROD can handle most
> of the load we can spare the resources.


I'm willing to listen to any ideas about reforming AFD, but I tend to think
that the whole idea of AFD is like putting a round peg in a square hole, and
that it is probably a better idea to just scrap the whole thing rather than
waste time fixing something that is fundamentally broken.

Ryan

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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Philip Welch
>>>> That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only
>>>> uncontested.
>>>
>>> Any particular reason why?
>>
>> All you need to stop PROD is one person to remove the tag. In a
>> dispute, people would edit war over the PROD tag until finally
>> settling down and having a consensus-finding discussion—i.e.,
>> engaging in the AfD process.
>
> You are aware that bald reversion is not allowed and that rules like
> [[WP:3RR]] -- or any admin with sense -- will stop it, right? Do  
> you know
> that this is exactly the same kind of canned non-objection that an
> uninitiated person makes against the very idea of an encyclopedia that
> anyone can edit?

Right—and the reason we're disallowed from edit warring is because we  
make those decisions from consensus-finding discussions, which is the  
entire part of what I said that you just completely ignored in favor  
of making a personal attack. Charming.

--
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Ryan Delaney
On 2/10/06, Philip Welch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > You are aware that bald reversion is not allowed and that rules like
> > [[WP:3RR]] -- or any admin with sense -- will stop it, right? Do
> > you know
> > that this is exactly the same kind of canned non-objection that an
> > uninitiated person makes against the very idea of an encyclopedia that
> > anyone can edit?
>
> Right—and the reason we're disallowed from edit warring is because we
> make those decisions from consensus-finding discussions, which is the
> entire part of what I said that you just completely ignored in favor
> of making a personal attack. Charming.

I didn't make a personal attack. I attacked your objection.

Ryan

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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Philip Welch
>>> You are aware that bald reversion is not allowed and that rules like
>>> [[WP:3RR]] -- or any admin with sense -- will stop it, right? Do
>>> you know
>>> that this is exactly the same kind of canned non-objection that an
>>> uninitiated person makes against the very idea of an encyclopedia  
>>> that
>>> anyone can edit?
>>
>> Right—and the reason we're disallowed from edit warring is because we
>> make those decisions from consensus-finding discussions, which is the
>> entire part of what I said that you just completely ignored in favor
>> of making a personal attack. Charming.
>
> I didn't make a personal attack. I attacked your objection.

Fine, but you still ignored the main point of my argument which was,  
and I quote, "until finally settling down and having a consensus-
finding discussion—i.e., engaging in the AfD process."

To repeat myself, any dispute over placement of a PROD tag would  
ultimately result in "finally settling down and having a consensus-
finding discussion—i.e., engaging in the AfD process."

In other words, just as normal edit wars are discouraged in favor of  
"settling down and having a consensus-finding discussion", edit wars  
over PROD tags would *ideally* be replaced with "settling down and  
having a consensus-finding discussion" would, in the case of a PROD  
dispute, constitute, in effect, "engaging in the AfD process".

In summary, any dispute over the placement of a PROD tag would, at  
best, result in "having a consensus-finding discussion—i.e., engaging  
in the AfD process".

(I hope that was clear.)

--
Philip L. Welch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Philwelch



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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Bugzilla from jessw@netwood.net
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On Feb 10, 2006, at 3:37 PM, MacGyverMagic/Mgm wrote:

> Not  a bad idea. It gives people time to work on an article and  
> doesn't get
> the immediate hit your article is being AFDed, but is there some  
> safeguard
> in place against people removing the tag?
>
> If someone removes an AFD tag, you still have the central listing. What
> happens if they remove a prod tag? Do I have to watchlist it and hope  
> it is
> the last edit on the article if I check it?
There is a log of the current status of any article which has had the  
PROD tag added to it at any time; i.e. if someone removes the tag, it  
shows up in this log - with the username, edit summary, and the current  
status of the article(AfD'd, deleted, copyvio, etc) visible in the log.  
  That log is here:  
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/queries/en_prod_history

Also, there is the currently tagged log (  
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/queries/ 
en_proposed_deletion ), which lists the time the article was tagged,  
the article name, the reason provided, and the number of hours  
remaining before the article can be deleted.  Overall, there is *more*  
information available about a PROD'ed article than is available about a  
AfD'ed article, although we could of course fix this with proper  
coding.

Jesse Weinstein

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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Philip Welch
Philip Welch wrote:

>>> That's impossible--PROD can't handle contested deletions, only
>>> uncontested.
>>
>>
>> Any particular reason why?
>
>
> All you need to stop PROD is one person to remove the tag. In a
> dispute, people would edit war over the PROD tag until finally  settling
> down and having a consensus-finding discussion—i.e.,  engaging in the
> AfD process.
>
> This is why PROD is only a partial replacement. That said, we can
> reform AfD so that we don't launch headfirst into the voting (yes.
> VOTING)  process and actually discuss our concerns first, with the  help
> of an impartial admin-facilitator whose job is to carry out the
> ultimate decision. This sounds laborious but if PROD can handle most  of
> the load we can spare the resources.
>
A few thoughts on the matter:

- Complementary to the {{prod}} tag is {{prod-2}}, which says "I agree
with this nomination".

- For articles that have been tagged with {{prod}}, but the deletion is
disputed for reasons which cannot immediately be expressed in the
article, {{hangon}} (currently used to contest CSDs)

- Inspired by DFA, AfD should be changed from 7 days of voting to 5 days
of *discussion* followed by 2 days of /straw polling/; remember,
[[m:Voting is evil|]].

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP


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Re: [[WP:PROD]] - a lightweight deletion process

Bugzilla from jessw@netwood.net
On Feb 10, 2006, at 10:33 PM, Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
> A few thoughts on the matter:
>
> - Complementary to the {{prod}} tag is {{prod-2}}, which says "I agree
> with this nomination".
{{prod-2}} is depreciated by many users/supporters of PROD.  Either the
person adding it thinks it is controversial(i.e. someone will want to
keep it), in which case it should be listed on AfD, or they don't think
anyone will disagree with their view on it(i.e. that it should be
deleted) in which case tagging it with {{prod-2}} is redundant and a
waste of time.  (All this is my opinion only of course)

> - For articles that have been tagged with {{prod}}, but the deletion is
> disputed for reasons which cannot immediately be expressed in the
> article, {{hangon}} (currently used to contest CSDs)
No.  This is really seriously wrong.  (pardon the caps, but this is
important) *If The Deletion Is Disputed For Any Reason, The PROD Tag
Should Be Removed*.  That's fundamental to the process - there is no
such thing as different classes of disputes with the deletion - anyone
who thinks the article should not be deleted(for any reason or no
reason) should remove the tag.  PROD is for uncontroversial deletions,
AfD(or some other process) is for controversial ones.  It is really
important to keep these separate.

Jesse Weinstein

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