Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Tim Starling
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 8/25/06, Tim Starling <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Two separate messages for one short edit might be a bit overkill.
>> If it's too much then don't type it. If you think the feature won't be used
>> at all, then I think you have another thing coming.
>
> ??? where did that come from???
>

I didn't mean to sound rude. Just a figure of speech.

-- Tim Starling

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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Ligulem
In reply to this post by Tim Starling
Tim Starling wrote:
> Enough chit chat, where's my Person 1? I want concrete features and I want
> them now. The feature is a simple one, if we can assemble the right skills,
> just a few hours' work each. But to get us started, someone needs to make
> that UI mockup.

Most edit conflicts happen on "discussion" (voting) pages. Stuff like
RfA's. This feature won't change that situation.

I can't think of any edit conflict in main space of my edits. Not even
among my thousands of AWB/MWB edits. But I'm not a featured article
artist (template wonk might fit better).

Major overhauls of articles are either done by a single chef de cuisine
or they are discussed before.

But I'll shut up now ;) (I'm not person 1)


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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 06:17:48PM +0200, Ligulem wrote:
> Most edit conflicts happen on "discussion" (voting) pages. Stuff like
> RfA's. This feature won't change that situation.

You didn't spend much time on "2004 US Presidential Election", did you?

Cheers,
-- jra
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Steve Bennett-4
On 8/25/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 06:17:48PM +0200, Ligulem wrote:
> > Most edit conflicts happen on "discussion" (voting) pages. Stuff like
> > RfA's. This feature won't change that situation.
>
> You didn't spend much time on "2004 US Presidential Election", did you?

What's the scenario that happens with a page like that that could be
resolved if you could see who was working on which section? I hardly
ever work on "busy" pages, myself.

Steve
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 06:47:52PM +0200, Steve Bennett wrote:

> On 8/25/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 06:17:48PM +0200, Ligulem wrote:
> > > Most edit conflicts happen on "discussion" (voting) pages. Stuff like
> > > RfA's. This feature won't change that situation.
> >
> > You didn't spend much time on "2004 US Presidential Election", did you?
>
> What's the scenario that happens with a page like that that could be
> resolved if you could see who was working on which section? I hardly
> ever work on "busy" pages, myself.

I wasn't suggesting that Tim's proposed feech would solve the [[Bushdot
syndrome]], merely clarifying for Ligulem that I disagreed with his
characterization.

Cheers,
-- jra
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Simetrical
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
As someone who always sets "invisible mode" off on forums, I can say
it can be slightly creepy to have someone say "Oh, you're sending a
private message, I wonder who it's to?" or "I wondered when you'd get
around to reading that thread" on IRC or wherever.  Given the number
of privacy-lovers you get in the open-source community, I suspect
you'll see fairly strong backlash if you make it opt-out rather than
opt-in, and don't at least make a checkbox or something to set the
preference right from the edit window.

Personally, I would put more stress on the message box and less on the
names.  Make the name-showing opt-in, not opt-out (with those who fail
to opt in being billed as "invisible users" or something); messages
should be sendable even without logging in or showing your name.

On 8/25/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Are we *ever* going to get a way to edit ledes without having to lock
> the whole page?

The edit-conflict resolver doesn't care whether you're editing the
page or a section.  If the two edits are to different lines, they're
merged; if they're to the same line, they conflict.  (There may be
some more details that I don't know of, but that's the gist of it.)
Edit conflicts occur most frequently on busy RFAs or talk pages
because everyone's editing the same line, namely the one below where
the last guy left his comment.
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 01:47:16PM -0400, Simetrical wrote:
> On 8/25/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Are we *ever* going to get a way to edit ledes without having to lock
> > the whole page?
>
> The edit-conflict resolver doesn't care whether you're editing the
> page or a section.  If the two edits are to different lines, they're
> merged; if they're to the same line, they conflict.  (There may be
> some more details that I don't know of, but that's the gist of it.)

Let me be the first to say that, psychologically, it doesn't feel that
way at *all*.  And based on other people's comments, I'm not the only
one who doesn't get that.

> Edit conflicts occur most frequently on busy RFAs or talk pages
> because everyone's editing the same line, namely the one below where
> the last guy left his comment.

Sure; but that wasn't the situation I was trying to fix.

Cheers,
-- jra
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Arne 'Timwi' Heizmann
In reply to this post by Jay Ashworth-2
Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
>
> Are we *ever* going to get a way to edit ledes without having to lock
> the whole page?

Edit any section, then change 'section=n' in the URL to 'section=0'.

Timwi

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Edit conflicts

Arne 'Timwi' Heizmann
In reply to this post by Simetrical
Simetrical wrote:
>
> The edit-conflict resolver doesn't care whether you're editing the
> page or a section.  If the two edits are to different lines, they're
> merged; if they're to the same line, they conflict.  (There may be
> some more details that I don't know of, but that's the gist of it.)
> Edit conflicts occur most frequently on busy RFAs or talk pages
> because everyone's editing the same line, namely the one below where
> the last guy left his comment.

I would probably mumble something about my long-ago proposal to do away
with the "Edit Conflict" screen altogether, if only it hadn't been
criticised and flamed so much at the time....

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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Nick Jenkins
In reply to this post by Tim Starling
> But to get us started, someone needs to make
> that UI mockup.

Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png
In the picture, the "Notify others of my edit" box should be ticked (since it is shown in the list).
Maybe "Notify others of my edit" should labelled "Notify others of my progress"?
Maybe the number of characters changed should be shown, maybe it shouldn't.
Maybe the name of the other user should be shown, and maybe it shouldn't.
Maybe the user's own changes should be shown in the list, maybe they shouldn't.

For the messages between client JavaScript and the PHP on the server, sounds like maybe there are 3 types of messages:
1) A status update when someone starts editing something, or a periodic update as they make changes.
2) A method for querying what the current status is of ongoing edits it.
3) A response from the server as to what the status of current edits is.

Format 1 probably needs the summary, section, revision, time since the user last changed anything in the textbox, and possibly the
number of characters changed. The server presumably already knows the username from the cookie.
E.g.: (Section, chars modified, revision, seconds since last change, edit summary):
["Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]

Format 2:
Can just be a get request, using the exact same URL format as per index.php :
e.g. GET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/edit-status.php?title=User:Nickj/Sandbox

Possible response format from PHP on server for number 3 (in response to GET request #2) is:

# No conflicts:
[]

# Only one conflict. Fields are: Username, section name, changed characters, timestamp of version editing, seconds since last
change, edit summary:
[["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]]

# Two conflicts (sorted by seconds since last change?) :
[["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"],["User:203.15.35.81","",1000,20041112231221,100,"I am a Vandal!"]]

You probably also need a timeout mechanism (e.g. if haven't received a status report from a client in 5 mins, then drop the user
from the list), and maybe also a message to inform the server if the user aborts the edit (although they can just click the "back"
button, rather than clicking "cancel", in which case you probably won't get the message).

All the best,
Nick.

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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Ligulem
Nick Jenkins wrote:
> Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
> http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png

Looks nice. Many thanks for doing the mockup.

While you guys are at it: could you make the edit summary field larger?
I mean extending it to right edge of the window. I always do have a
strong key hole viewing feeling when looking at this edit page.

Also could you please add a preview for the edit summary (when I hit
preview I want a preview for the page text *and* the edit summary as it
will appear in the history). Reason: I'm prone to typos but I see them
better when I can look at the text in original font and with links parsed.

And how bad would it be being able to edit my own edit summary *after*
save? Maybe with a time limit (after 6 hours or whatever time limit the
edit summary is fixed forever). We sometimes put some stuff in edit
summaries we regret later (example: Wikipedians have been opposed on
RfA's for edit summaries alone). Nobody is perfect ;-)
Of course, this feature would be limited to logged in users.

--Ligulem

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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Tim Starling
In reply to this post by Nick Jenkins
Nick Jenkins wrote:

>> But to get us started, someone needs to make
>> that UI mockup.
>
> Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
> http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png
> In the picture, the "Notify others of my edit" box should be ticked (since it is shown in the list).
> Maybe "Notify others of my edit" should labelled "Notify others of my progress"?
> Maybe the number of characters changed should be shown, maybe it shouldn't.
> Maybe the name of the other user should be shown, and maybe it shouldn't.
> Maybe the user's own changes should be shown in the list, maybe they shouldn't.

Thanks for that. Can we have the HTML source for it?

> For the messages between client JavaScript and the PHP on the server, sounds like maybe there are 3 types of messages:
> 1) A status update when someone starts editing something, or a periodic update as they make changes.
> 2) A method for querying what the current status is of ongoing edits it.
> 3) A response from the server as to what the status of current edits is.
>
> Format 1 probably needs the summary, section, revision, time since the user last changed anything in the textbox, and possibly the
> number of characters changed. The server presumably already knows the username from the cookie.
> E.g.: (Section, chars modified, revision, seconds since last change, edit summary):
> ["Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]
>
> Format 2:
> Can just be a get request, using the exact same URL format as per index.php :
> e.g. GET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/edit-status.php?title=User:Nickj/Sandbox
>
> Possible response format from PHP on server for number 3 (in response to GET request #2) is:
>
> # No conflicts:
> []
>
> # Only one conflict. Fields are: Username, section name, changed characters, timestamp of version editing, seconds since last
> change, edit summary:
> [["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"]]
>
> # Two conflicts (sorted by seconds since last change?) :
> [["User:Nickj","Background",235,20060823110052,34,"Typo fixes"],["User:203.15.35.81","",1000,20041112231221,100,"I am a Vandal!"]]
>
> You probably also need a timeout mechanism (e.g. if haven't received a status report from a client in 5 mins, then drop the user
> from the list), and maybe also a message to inform the server if the user aborts the edit (although they can just click the "back"
> button, rather than clicking "cancel", in which case you probably won't get the message).

I imagine we would have both a client-side timeout and a server-side
timeout. The client-side timeout would be a maximum idle period, it would
turn off the periodic updates to prevent excessive resource usage when the
user leaves the computer with an edit window open. The server-side timeout
would cancel the editing status when the client stops sending messages for
whatever reason. The server could also redundantly enforce the maximum idle
time. As for cancel buttons: is it possible to send a cancel message
asynchronously, without blocking the client from leaving the page?

-- Tim Starling

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Re: Edit conflicts

Rob Church
In reply to this post by Arne 'Timwi' Heizmann
On 25/08/06, Timwi <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would probably mumble something about my long-ago proposal to do away
> with the "Edit Conflict" screen altogether, if only it hadn't been
> criticised and flamed so much at the time....

I'd like to see it removed in more cases; more intelligent handling of
merges. And in the cases where it does come up, as mentioned above,
I'd like to see people presented with a fancier interface (where
possible), to make it all easier.

I'd suspect an edit conflict is up there with other horrendous quirks
when putting newbies off participating in discussions.


Rob Church
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Re: Edit conflicts

Steve Bennett-4
On 8/26/06, Rob Church <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd like to see it removed in more cases; more intelligent handling of
> merges. And in the cases where it does come up, as mentioned above,
> I'd like to see people presented with a fancier interface (where
> possible), to make it all easier.
>
> I'd suspect an edit conflict is up there with other horrendous quirks
> when putting newbies off participating in discussions.

It's obviously annoying enough that people frequently mention it in
their actual posts ("argh! 2 edit conflicts!") Hardly ever happens to
me. I must type too quickly :)

Steve
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Simetrical
In reply to this post by Ligulem
On 8/26/06, Ligulem <[hidden email]> wrote:
> While you guys are at it: could you make the edit summary field larger?
> I mean extending it to right edge of the window. I always do have a
> strong key hole viewing feeling when looking at this edit page.

One-line stylesheet change: input#wpSummary { width: 80%; }.  I've had
it in my personal CSS for a while now, and it's much better.
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Arne 'Timwi' Heizmann
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 08:06:17PM +0100, Timwi wrote:
> Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> > Are we *ever* going to get a way to edit ledes without having to lock
> > the whole page?
>
> Edit any section, then change 'section=n' in the URL to 'section=0'.

Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
pointing that out, Timwi.

Cheers,
-- jra
--
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Rob Church
On 27/08/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
> pointing that out, Timwi.

See also http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156.


Rob Church
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Nick Jenkins
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:38:57PM +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote:
> > But to get us started, someone needs to make
> > that UI mockup.
>
> Very draft mock-up of a possible UI, from what I think you're describing:
> http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/ui-draft-mockup.png

Not bad.

Given the functionality extension of the edit summary, I think perhaps
the entire box should be moved up above the textedit window...
(Specifically, the fact that what you put in the summary will now be
visible before you click any buttons (onblur?))

> In the picture, the "Notify others of my edit" box should be ticked (since it is shown in the list).
> Maybe "Notify others of my edit" should labelled "Notify others of my progress"?

"Hide that I'm editing", and default it to off.  The negative connotation
will change the default amongst people who don't care in a fashion that
will make the feature more useful, while not keeping people who care
from switching it.

> Maybe the name of the other user should be shown, and maybe it shouldn't.

I like the summary the way you have it.

> Maybe the user's own changes should be shown in the list, maybe they shouldn't.

Perhaps they should; to reinforce to people whether they're visible or
not...

> You probably also need a timeout mechanism (e.g. if haven't received
> a status report from a client in 5 mins, then drop the user from the
> list), and maybe also a message to inform the server if the user
> aborts the edit (although they can just click the "back" button,
> rather than clicking "cancel", in which case you probably won't get
> the message).

I think you can trap pageexit, though I'm not positive.

Cheers,
-- jra
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Jay Ashworth-2
In reply to this post by Rob Church
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 03:41:57AM +0100, Rob Church wrote:
> On 27/08/06, Jay R. Ashworth <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Which means the machinery is in place, just not the UI.  Thanks for
> > pointing that out, Timwi.
>
> See also http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156.

Noted, Rob.  Thanks.

Cheers,
-- jra
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Re: Want to collaborate on writing a feature?

Ligulem
In reply to this post by Simetrical
Simetrical wrote:
> On 8/26/06, Ligulem <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> While you guys are at it: could you make the edit summary field larger?
>> I mean extending it to right edge of the window. I always do have a
>> strong key hole viewing feeling when looking at this edit page.
>
> One-line stylesheet change: input#wpSummary { width: 80%; }.  I've had
> it in my personal CSS for a while now, and it's much better.

Cool. Exactly what I needed. Thanks a lot!

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