What to do with outdated translated pages?

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What to do with outdated translated pages?

Habj
I have just started to look into the translation requests. I wonder a
couple of things, and I bring it to the list since I am sure there
must be plenty other translators in similar situations.

The pages for the current fundraiser will only be used for a couple of
weeks, but many other pages remain for a long time. Those pages
generally get changed and updated as reality changes. In the current
translation requests, there is for example the page on the Board, and
on the current staff. In both cases, new people will come and others
will leave. If a page like this is translated and not updated, it
looks very bad. Old or wrong information is often worse than no
information at all, and in this case outdated translated info will
prevent people to instead visit the corresponding page in a language
where the info is correct.

If I translate a page, I can not promise to be here to update it
later. If my local community was bigger - and/or more generally
interested in stuff above the local community level - I could count on
other people replacing me, but as things are now I can that is
something I can hope for but not count on. If we don't implement some
kind of system to deal with outdated pages, I am a little afraid of
translating such pages. I feel that in the end I might have done more
bad than good.

How can we deal with outdated translations? One _could_ tag a
translated page saying which version of another page it is translated
from. Others who don't speak the language in question can then decide
whether the information is too outdated to be around, and somehow
remove the page - I suppose redirecting it to the English, or other
suitable, version is a working idea. Does anyone have a better
suggestion?

/habj
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

KIZU Naoko
Hello habj, thank you for bringing it up.
Outdated translations are one of our problems in coordinating request.
Tagging them {{outdated}} or expired or whatever appropriate, is one
of idea.

I would like to watch this issue more closely.
There are several cases we call it "outdated requests"
A. One time request which was submitted past and now it makes no sense
to make its translation
--> Past fundraising is exactly the case. Deleted pages of the
Foundation wiki would be too. Now no one request for translating those
materials. Even we can call it {{historical requests}} or just
{{close}}
B. Still meaningful or historical interest but not news at this moment.
--> For example: Registration of Wikimania 2006, Board Election Result
etc. It is not so much meaningful to make their translation right now,
specially some information is available on other document (like
[[Board of Trustees]]) and the latter is also listed on [[Translation
requests]]. It is something different from just "outdated". "Not in
urgent"? Or simply "historical" or "close".
C. The source updated somewhere but not on meta.
--> When "source" document on meta request page isn't properly
updated, it occurs. (sorry...) . They are however not to need to be
tagged "outdated", if someone update the source properly. Now I am
engaging in maintaining TR subpages. I will appreciate your
participation. Any meta admin can help this "updating" with importing
files from the Foundation wiki.
C1. The source was properly updated and request was flashed but
translation is not.
--> See [[Wikimedia:Board of Trustees]] and some language versions.
How we are better to treat meta working page? Just blanking? Eh, but
some materials seems to be reusable ......  Zocky's machine has an
"updated" tag. But no "need to update". "wait" tag can convey this
meaning? I am not sure. Thought?
C2. Similar case. The source was recently updated. It is not different
so much from the meta "source" but difference is difference. The
editor who updated the original may not be interested in updating meta
version too. It frequently happened. Board members are tend to be so,
(it is not a criticism but a fact - they may be busy too much) and
other editors so. Even I cannot avoid from this accusation. I am
trying to synchronize two versions, but I may be late. And translators
who are not aware of differences make a translation from "the outdated
(even slightly)" version. And inconsistency is slowly but surely
spreading from version to version ... It is a problem we need to
solve.

If you know another case, please point it out. To solve the issue,
first we need to beat things to dead.

On 12/23/06, habj <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have just started to look into the translation requests. I wonder a
> couple of things, and I bring it to the list since I am sure there
> must be plenty other translators in similar situations.
>
> The pages for the current fundraiser will only be used for a couple of
> weeks, but many other pages remain for a long time. Those pages
> generally get changed and updated as reality changes. In the current
> translation requests, there is for example the page on the Board, and
> on the current staff. In both cases, new people will come and others
> will leave. If a page like this is translated and not updated, it
> looks very bad. Old or wrong information is often worse than no
> information at all, and in this case outdated translated info will
> prevent people to instead visit the corresponding page in a language
> where the info is correct.
>
> If I translate a page, I can not promise to be here to update it
> later. If my local community was bigger - and/or more generally
> interested in stuff above the local community level - I could count on
> other people replacing me, but as things are now I can that is
> something I can hope for but not count on. If we don't implement some
> kind of system to deal with outdated pages, I am a little afraid of
> translating such pages. I feel that in the end I might have done more
> bad than good.
>
> How can we deal with outdated translations? One _could_ tag a
> translated page saying which version of another page it is translated
> from. Others who don't speak the language in question can then decide
> whether the information is too outdated to be around, and somehow
> remove the page - I suppose redirecting it to the English, or other
> suitable, version is a working idea. Does anyone have a better
> suggestion?
>
> /habj
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> Translators-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>


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  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

Bugzilla from kipmaster@gmail.com
Hello,

1/
I'm quite new to translation, so, first question (related to outdating):
do we have a template to indicate which version/revision was translated?
That would allow to have easily a diff between what was translated and the
current original article.

On fr.wp, for example, when an article becomes featured, there is a banner at the bottom
( e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_safavide , scroll at bottom )
where the link "comparer avec la version actuelle" allows to view the diff between
the version that was elected featured and the current revision.

2/
The template above could/should be hidden on published pages (on foundation?),
but available for translators (on meta?).
But I think it would be good to at least always have a disclaimer saying
"This page was last updated on 15 November 2005", so that people reading
it at least can know that it is one year old and may not be accurate.
Maybe we can add something like "the original English version may be
more uptodate"?

3/
I'm wondering if someone know of a better tool for translations and keeping things
uptodate. Is there some system which, for example, would automatically add an "outdated"
tag when the original is updated?
I'm sure the current mediawiki software is not the best for this (though, not that bad),
but I don't know what other tools are available.
Do professional translators have such concerns? (Sabine, are you here...? ;-) )

Thanks,
Kip.


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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

KIZU Naoko
On 12/24/06, Christophe Millet <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,

'lut, bienvenue a translators-l,
> 1/
> I'm quite new to translation, so, first question (related to outdating):
> do we have a template to indicate which version/revision was translated?

I think we have no template to indicate revisions. As Louis pointed
out sometimes, we don't have version management now. Or we haven't
assigned version number to our translation request. In my opinion,
such management will require technical support - like CVS. Unless we
have some neat extention, such support may be not available on
MediaWiki, as far as I know.

> That would allow to have easily a diff between what was translated and the
> current original article.

> On fr.wp, for example, when an article becomes featured, there is a banner
> at the bottom
> ( e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_safavide , scroll
> at bottom )
> where the link "comparer avec la version actuelle" allows to view the diff
> between
> the version that was elected featured and the current revision.

It is smart. Besides we solve the problem who put this template to
every translation page, it would be a solution.  Christophe, could you
please make its modified version to meta translation request page? We
could make a test on a series of requests ... say how about "Our
projects", the newest request now we have?

> 2/
> The template above could/should be hidden on published pages (on
> foundation?),
> but available for translators (on meta?).

Reasonable.

> But I think it would be good to at least always have a disclaimer saying
> "This page was last updated on 15 November 2005", so that people reading
> it at least can know that it is one year old and may not be accurate.

I agree such information is worthy to be reminded. MediaWiki
developers do. All MediaWiki page (except some special pages) contain
their latest update date. (See the footer). I don't know how we get it
automaticlly on each page.

So questions are A. we want to make it more visible? (But it may
annoyed other editors ...) B. if so, how?

> Maybe we can add something like "the original English version may be
> more uptodate"?

It is an idea. Do you mean where we add it? To meta version or to the
foundation site (and published) version or to both? To meta version,
it will be simple; we can add a notice on source page. "Note: The
source document may be updated after you began to work on your
translation. Please make it sure periodically, if any big change
happened on the source. blah blah blah".

If we care for the foundation website, we need to find a different way
of wording.

Thought?

> 3/
> I'm wondering if someone know of a better tool for translations and keeping
> things
> uptodate. Is there some system which, for example, would automatically add
> an "outdated"
> tag when the original is updated?
> I'm sure the current mediawiki software is not the best for this (though,
> not that bad),
> but I don't know what other tools are available.
> Do professional translators have such concerns? (Sabine, are you here...?
> ;-) )

/me pokes Sabine too
Btw, seasons greetings for all.
Cheers,
--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

Habj
2006/12/24, Aphaia <[hidden email]>:

> I think we have no template to indicate revisions. As Louis pointed
> out sometimes, we don't have version management now. Or we haven't
> assigned version number to our translation request. In my opinion,
> such management will require technical support - like CVS. Unless we
> have some neat extention, such support may be not available on
> MediaWiki, as far as I know.

There is an "ID number" for each version, though. One finds it through
the "permanent link" or "permalink" in the left hand menu. For
instance, http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sk%C3%A4nk_kunskap&oldid=499775
is the current Swedish version of "Give the gift of knowledge", but
the link will always lead to this version even when the page is
changed. I know too little of the tech stuff to know if the task is
best solved with template wizardry or a link to someplace else where
one can run a script, but it must absolutely be doable.

/habj
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

KIZU Naoko
On 12/25/06, habj <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2006/12/24, Aphaia <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I think we have no template to indicate revisions. As Louis pointed
> > out sometimes, we don't have version management now. Or we haven't
> > assigned version number to our translation request. In my opinion,
> > such management will require technical support - like CVS. Unless we
> > have some neat extention, such support may be not available on
> > MediaWiki, as far as I know.>
> There is an "ID number" for each version, though. One finds it through
> the "permanent link" or "permalink" in the left hand menu. For
> instance, http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sk%C3%A4nk_kunskap&oldid=499775

Thanks, and now I found we even needn't to click that. We can get it
from magic word ... {{REVISIONID}}.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words

If we can display visible the data below, it would be helpful for us...
*The revision ID of the ongoing translation itseif (A)(givin by {{REVISIONID}})
  + A's latest update (given by {{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}} - or
combinations of some maic word)
*The latest source (B) related date (how we got it? Using template?)
 + B's revision ID a/o date or updating   (same the above)
*The source of the ongoing translation (C; In the beginning, B=C. But
it can vary)
 + C's revision ID a/o date or updating + link to this division? (or
link to the diff of the source division and the current one)

If we autumatically get that series of data when we set up the
translation working page, management of division would be not so
difficult. Template could be a part of the current system (Zocky's) or
separate one (I am not sure).  Thought?

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  * Nessuna poesia prima di noi *
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

Habj
In reply to this post by KIZU Naoko
2006/12/23, Aphaia <[hidden email]>:

> There are several cases we call it "outdated requests"
> A. One time request which was submitted past and now it makes no sense
> to make its translation
(snip)
> B. Still meaningful or historical interest but not news at this moment.
(snip)
> C. The source updated somewhere but not on meta.
(snip)
> C1. The source was properly updated and request was flashed but
> translation is not.
(snip)
> C2. Similar case. The source was recently updated. It is not different
> so much from the meta "source" but difference is difference. The
> editor who updated the original may not be interested in updating meta
> version too.


Aphaia has divided the cases in categories according to what kind of
text the original version is, and what has happened to it. I'd like to
make another division: between languages that have enough translators,
and those that do not. In the first case, it will be a matter of
organising the work. In the latter, the problem is what to do with
severely outdated stuff that really needs to be updated or removed,
but also to help pointing new translators to the pages in biggest need
of an overhaul in a situation where there might be no "old" translator
left.

Personally I do not even know what pages in Swedish there are. When
pages for the election were translated, they were tagged with a
non-existant category "Category:SV" but at the time I chose to ignore
it. Probably I should create it and put all Swedish translations I
find in it, making it possible for someone else to find them. Since
categories are used on all the projects, it should be a something that
new translators can easily find.

Do other languages have any other kind of system?

/habj
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Re: What to do with outdated translated pages?

KIZU Naoko
Hello,

On 1/1/07, habj <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Personally I do not even know what pages in Swedish there are. When
> pages for the election were translated, they were tagged with a
> non-existant category "Category:SV" but at the time I chose to ignore
> it. Probably I should create it and put all Swedish translations I
> find in it, making it possible for someone else to find them. Since
> categories are used on all the projects, it should be a something that
> new translators can easily find.
>
> Do other languages have any other kind of system?

If I understand correctly,  some translation teams attempt
systematical approaches. See [[m:Translation teams/ar]] or
[[m:Translation teams/ja]]. They have a list of ongoing translations,
and assigns each translation priority, degree of accomplishment and
whatever they prefer to mention. It seems to be maintained manually,
so it would be fitting to a team consisted in some regulars rather a
few (so mostly unorganized) translators.

By the way, motivated this discussion, I tried to implement some ideas
on this thread. I think it ugly and redundant by myself, so template
gurus, your improvement will be heavily appreciated ;)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Translation_data  <-- Template
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Translation_requests/WMF/Board_of_Trustees/ja&oldid=491638
<-- one example of its application

Again I say, obviously it is redundant comparing with the
"translation" template*, and I expect we can merge it, though I don't
know how-to regretfully. I will very appreciate your help.

* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Translation

Since the translation template on the above is now used here and
there, it will be nice to make a new upper-compatible template as a
test and apply it to a test page. If it works well, we'll apply the
newer one to all ongoing translations.

Your ideas and proposals of improvement from a different direction
will be continously appreciated.

Cheers,
--
KIZU Naoko
  Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
  * habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *

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