Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

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Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

Pharos-3
My fellow Wiki-Americans,

Since many more Wikimaniacs have joined us since the first officialish
meeting, I propose that we hold an informal WALRUS II get-together
this evening (Saturday) for dinner-ish and pub-ish stuff at 5:30PM
right after the big Wikimanioa Group Photo.

We'll leave directly from the Group Photo location.

Bring your fellow Wiki-Americans and friends, all nationalities are
certainly welcome!

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)

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Re: Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

metasj
Nice!  S.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Pharos <[hidden email]> wrote:
My fellow Wiki-Americans,

Since many more Wikimaniacs have joined us since the first officialish
meeting, I propose that we hold an informal WALRUS II get-together
this evening (Saturday) for dinner-ish and pub-ish stuff at 5:30PM
right after the big Wikimanioa Group Photo.

We'll leave directly from the Group Photo location.

Bring your fellow Wiki-Americans and friends, all nationalities are
certainly welcome!

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)

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Re: Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

Guerillero Wikipedia
Will be there.

--Guerillero

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nice!  S.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Pharos <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> My fellow Wiki-Americans,
>>
>> Since many more Wikimaniacs have joined us since the first officialish
>> meeting, I propose that we hold an informal WALRUS II get-together
>> this evening (Saturday) for dinner-ish and pub-ish stuff at 5:30PM
>> right after the big Wikimanioa Group Photo.
>>
>> We'll leave directly from the Group Photo location.
>>
>> Bring your fellow Wiki-Americans and friends, all nationalities are
>> certainly welcome!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Richard
>> (User:Pharos)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          identi.ca:sj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>

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Re: Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

Sydney Poore

Planning to come.

Sydney Poore
User FloNight

On Jul 14, 2012 2:43 PM, "Guerillero Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Will be there.

--Guerillero

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Nice!  S.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Pharos <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> My fellow Wiki-Americans,
>>
>> Since many more Wikimaniacs have joined us since the first officialish
>> meeting, I propose that we hold an informal WALRUS II get-together
>> this evening (Saturday) for dinner-ish and pub-ish stuff at 5:30PM
>> right after the big Wikimanioa Group Photo.
>>
>> We'll leave directly from the Group Photo location.
>>
>> Bring your fellow Wiki-Americans and friends, all nationalities are
>> certainly welcome!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Richard
>> (User:Pharos)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          identi.ca:sj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>

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Re: Wiki-Americans WALRUS II tonight

metasj
Have you picked a place? I have to clean up a few papers before leaving the venue.  SJ
617 529 4266

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Sydney Poore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Planning to come.

Sydney Poore
User FloNight

On Jul 14, 2012 2:43 PM, "Guerillero Wikipedia" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Will be there.

--Guerillero

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Samuel Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Nice!  S.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Pharos <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> My fellow Wiki-Americans,
>>
>> Since many more Wikimaniacs have joined us since the first officialish
>> meeting, I propose that we hold an informal WALRUS II get-together
>> this evening (Saturday) for dinner-ish and pub-ish stuff at 5:30PM
>> right after the big Wikimanioa Group Photo.
>>
>> We'll leave directly from the Group Photo location.
>>
>> Bring your fellow Wiki-Americans and friends, all nationalities are
>> certainly welcome!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Richard
>> (User:Pharos)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>
>
>
>
> --
> Samuel Klein          identi.ca:sj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimediaus-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaus-l
>

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Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kevin Rutherford
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Gregory Varnum-2
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Gregory Varnum-2
I've heard this repeatedly from other chapters and from ChapCom members - I'm not sure tiny minority is a fair assessment.

Also, I'm at a loss for why the US should be permitted multiple votes when other nations with multiple chapters, such as Swedan, only have one vote. Please explain why we deserve more than what our fellow nations are receiving.

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Damian Finol
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin-3
There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian

On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Gregory Varnum-2
I think Damian makes a fair point - and he is not the only member of ChapCom I've heard this from.

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Damian Finol <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian

On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kevin Rutherford
In reply to this post by Damian Finol
There is a legitimate fear amongst Wikimedians overseas whom I have spoken to that we will create many chapters, and become a huge voting bloc. I really see no reason why we are any more important than other nations, in this regard. Besides, I know many overseas Wikimedians who have encouraged this idea when I explained this to them.

Kevin

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:01 AM, "Damian Finol" <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian

On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
Sweden doesn't have multiple chapters -- there's only Wikimedia Sverige.  The only other country that *does* have multiple chapters is China, which has Wikimedia Hong Kong and Wikimedia Macau -- and both of those chapters have independent votes.

As far as whether we "deserve" more votes, that's a subjective question.  I will point out that, once every country gets a chapter, Europe (with a population of ~700 million) will have 50 votes -- while, under your proposal, the United States (with a population of ~300 million) will have 1.  Personally, I don't think that's particularly fair either.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've heard this repeatedly from other chapters and from ChapCom members - I'm not sure tiny minority is a fair assessment.

Also, I'm at a loss for why the US should be permitted multiple votes when other nations with multiple chapters, such as Swedan, only have one vote. Please explain why we deserve more than what our fellow nations are receiving.


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Damian Finol
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
Disclaimer mode:

All my statements are my own opinions, not officially as a member of ChapCom/AffCom

On Sunday, July 15, 2012, Mr. Gregory Varnum wrote:
I think Damian makes a fair point - and he is not the only member of ChapCom I've heard this from.

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Damian Finol <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian

On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
In reply to this post by Damian Finol
Granted; and, to be honest, were we really going to have 50 chapters, I'd agree with you.

However, it's important to note that the idea of state-level chapters is completely theoretical at this point.  At least for the foreseeable future, we will only have a handful of regional chapters -- perhaps 4 or 5 by 2014.  It doesn't strike me as unreasonable to allow these to hold the same rights that other chapters have -- particularly as they'll be held to all the same obligations in any case.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:01 AM, Damian Finol <[hidden email]> wrote:
There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian


On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Gregory Varnum-2
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin-3
I'm not sure comparing Europe as a whole to the US is a fair comparison. :/ There are numerous differences between countries and continents.

By the logic of population comparisons, India and China should each have 100 votes.

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:05 AM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sweden doesn't have multiple chapters -- there's only Wikimedia Sverige.  The only other country that *does* have multiple chapters is China, which has Wikimedia Hong Kong and Wikimedia Macau -- and both of those chapters have independent votes.

As far as whether we "deserve" more votes, that's a subjective question.  I will point out that, once every country gets a chapter, Europe (with a population of ~700 million) will have 50 votes -- while, under your proposal, the United States (with a population of ~300 million) will have 1.  Personally, I don't think that's particularly fair either.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've heard this repeatedly from other chapters and from ChapCom members - I'm not sure tiny minority is a fair assessment.

Also, I'm at a loss for why the US should be permitted multiple votes when other nations with multiple chapters, such as Swedan, only have one vote. Please explain why we deserve more than what our fellow nations are receiving.


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Gregory Varnum-2
In reply to this post by Kirill Lokshin-3
When we go past 4-5, how do we fairly determine which US chapters get to keep their votes and which don't get one? Also, what reason do other nation's chapters have to trust we'll simply give up votes down the road when we have more chapters? Providing a solution now seems a good way to ease concerns and decrease resistance to future US chapters. 

Plus, are we really worried that the US is going to lose our clout in WM or WMF?

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:08 AM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Granted; and, to be honest, were we really going to have 50 chapters, I'd agree with you.

However, it's important to note that the idea of state-level chapters is completely theoretical at this point.  At least for the foreseeable future, we will only have a handful of regional chapters -- perhaps 4 or 5 by 2014.  It doesn't strike me as unreasonable to allow these to hold the same rights that other chapters have -- particularly as they'll be held to all the same obligations in any case.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:01 AM, Damian Finol <[hidden email]> wrote:
There's a difference between voice and votes. US Chapters can participate in meetings, committees, etc. However, when it comes to chapters voting on for example Chapter selected board seats the possibility that the US could potentially have 50 votes is very unfair/scary/overwhelming

Damian


On Saturday, July 14, 2012, Kirill Lokshin wrote:
The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
There's no real logic to comparisons based on national boundaries either -- there's no fundamental reason why, for example, a Serbian Wikipedian and a Macedonian Wikipedian "deserve" two votes, while a Californian Wikipedian and a Floridan Wikipedian only "deserve" one.  Wikipedia activity has little, if anything, to do with particular countries, beyond the fact that those countries serve as convenient geographical delineators.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm not sure comparing Europe as a whole to the US is a fair comparison. :/ There are numerous differences between countries and continents.

By the logic of population comparisons, India and China should each have 100 votes.

-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:05 AM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sweden doesn't have multiple chapters -- there's only Wikimedia Sverige.  The only other country that *does* have multiple chapters is China, which has Wikimedia Hong Kong and Wikimedia Macau -- and both of those chapters have independent votes.

As far as whether we "deserve" more votes, that's a subjective question.  I will point out that, once every country gets a chapter, Europe (with a population of ~700 million) will have 50 votes -- while, under your proposal, the United States (with a population of ~300 million) will have 1.  Personally, I don't think that's particularly fair either.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:00 AM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've heard this repeatedly from other chapters and from ChapCom members - I'm not sure tiny minority is a fair assessment.

Also, I'm at a loss for why the US should be permitted multiple votes when other nations with multiple chapters, such as Swedan, only have one vote. Please explain why we deserve more than what our fellow nations are receiving.


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:54 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

The idea that all US chapters would have only a single voice in movement-wide discussions.  This hasn't been demanded except by tiny minority among other chapters -- and certainly not by anyone who will actually be involved in recognizing future US chapters.

As far as I'm concerned, that element makes this proposal a total non-starter.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which political concessions are you referring to?


-Greg

____________
Sent from my iPhone. Apologies for any typos. A more detailed response may be sent later.

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:49 PM, Kirill Lokshin <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's entirely unclear to me why we're proposing to make such dramatic political concessions, particularly given the lack of any meaningful external pressure to do so.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
Kirill Lokshin
Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Kevin Rutherford <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I hope that you have all been doing well and those who attended Wikimania have not been partying too hard after the awesome experiences of the last few days. I wanted to let you all know, that per a WALRUS meet-up discussion tonight, myself and two other users have drafted up a plan on the evolution and governance of future Wikimedia chapters: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_evolution_of_Wikimedia_chapters_in_the_United_States 
 
We look forward to your opinion on it, and I hope that those who are in the D.C. region have safe trips back, over the next few days.

Sincerely,
 
Kevin Rutherford
Ktr101

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Re: Proposal for evolution of future Wikimedia chapters

Kirill Lokshin-3
In reply to this post by Gregory Varnum-2
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Mr. Gregory Varnum <[hidden email]> wrote:
When we go past 4-5, how do we fairly determine which US chapters get to keep their votes and which don't get one? Also, what reason do other nation's chapters have to trust we'll simply give up votes down the road when we have more chapters? Providing a solution now seems a good way to ease concerns and decrease resistance to future US chapters. 

I don't disagree that there exist potential scenarios where we would be forced to agree to such a system as the price of recognition for a future US-based chapter.  What I do disagree with, however, is simply acceding to this arrangement without any indication that it will actually be necessary, and without any guarantees that it will be applied to other countries as well.
 
Plus, are we really worried that the US is going to lose our clout in WM or WMF?

It depends on what you mean.  There are really only two scenarios where chapters "vote" as entities:

(1) WMF board elections
(2) WCA council votes

The first of these is a non-issue in practice; the successful candidates wind up being determined by something closer to a rough consensus than a true vote.  The second, however, is potentially a very significant issue, particularly given that nobody really knows what authority the WCA will eventually come to wield.

Cheers,
Kirill

--
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Secretary | Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org | @wikimediadc 

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