[WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

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[WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

White Cat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_2#Category:Jews

I proposed a rename as per wikipedias categorization scheme, we add "people"
to any ethnicity. There appears to be a number of panic "oppose" votes. What
do you think?

    - Cool Cat
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Thomas Dalton
> I proposed a rename as per wikipedias categorization scheme, we add "people"
> to any ethnicity. There appears to be a number of panic "oppose" votes. What
> do you think?

I don't see any panicking going on. People are just opposing,
generally with valid reasons. I understand why you proposed it, but by
the look of that discussion, it would seem the preferred consistency
would be achieved by removing "people" from all the categories where
it isn't necessary (so [[Category:Christian people]] becomes
[[Category:Christians]]), rather than adding "people" to the other
categories.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

White Cat
That would require renaming all nationality/ethnicity categories and not
following the manual of style.
   - Cool Cat

On 2/4/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > I proposed a rename as per wikipedias categorization scheme, we add
> "people"
> > to any ethnicity. There appears to be a number of panic "oppose" votes.
> What
> > do you think?
>
> I don't see any panicking going on. People are just opposing,
> generally with valid reasons. I understand why you proposed it, but by
> the look of that discussion, it would seem the preferred consistency
> would be achieved by removing "people" from all the categories where
> it isn't necessary (so [[Category:Christian people]] becomes
> [[Category:Christians]]), rather than adding "people" to the other
> categories.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Thomas Dalton
> That would require renaming all nationality/ethnicity categories and not
> following the manual of style.

Well, no, it would require changing the manual of style...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Mark
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
Thomas Dalton wrote:

>>I proposed a rename as per wikipedias categorization scheme, we add "people"
>>to any ethnicity. There appears to be a number of panic "oppose" votes. What
>>do you think?
>>    
>>
>
>I don't see any panicking going on. People are just opposing,
>generally with valid reasons.
>
Did you read the comments?

"...Also without assuming bad faith I have to ask why people would be so
concerned with moving this category..- Moshe Constantine Hassan
Al-Silverburg"
"Strong Oppose per IZAK, frankly I'm shocked that this is even up for
discussion. ... -- Chabuk"
"Oppose. ... Share Chabuk's outrage that we're even voting on this. JFW"

Frankly I'm shocked that these kinds of personal attacks towards a
good-faith contributor are tolerated on Wikipedia, even if one of them
hilariously prefaced the attack with the phrase "without assuming bad
faith".

-Mark


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Thomas Dalton
> "...Also without assuming bad faith I have to ask why people would be so
> concerned with moving this category..- Moshe Constantine Hassan
> Al-Silverburg"

I interpreted that as assuming bad faith against the opposers, not the
proposer. It's rather ambiguous.

> "Strong Oppose per IZAK, frankly I'm shocked that this is even up for
> discussion. ... -- Chabuk"
> "Oppose. ... Share Chabuk's outrage that we're even voting on this. JFW"

Agreed, those are baffling and offensive comments, and should result
in warnings to the commenters. However, they are just 2 people - the
vast majority of people commenting did so with no problems at all.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

White Cat
Perhaps, but changing the manual of style is premature at this point IMHO.

A good number of the votes were as per  those comments pointed out here,
which is rather troublesome of course. But, I think the issue at hand is not
the number of uncivil comments directed at me, but the topic at hand.

I think it is good practice to toss in "people" after any ethnicity or
nationality. Some of the terms can have multiple meanings at that was the
original reason for this IIRC. What do you guys think?

    - Cool Cat

On 2/5/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > "...Also without assuming bad faith I have to ask why people would be so
> > concerned with moving this category..- Moshe Constantine Hassan
> > Al-Silverburg"
>
> I interpreted that as assuming bad faith against the opposers, not the
> proposer. It's rather ambiguous.
>
> > "Strong Oppose per IZAK, frankly I'm shocked that this is even up for
> > discussion. ... -- Chabuk"
> > "Oppose. ... Share Chabuk's outrage that we're even voting on this. JFW"
>
> Agreed, those are baffling and offensive comments, and should result
> in warnings to the commenters. However, they are just 2 people - the
> vast majority of people commenting did so with no problems at all.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Ray Saintonge
Cool Cat wrote:

>Perhaps, but changing the manual of style is premature at this point IMHO.
>
>A good number of the votes were as per  those comments pointed out here,
>which is rather troublesome of course. But, I think the issue at hand is not
>the number of uncivil comments directed at me, but the topic at hand.
>
>I think it is good practice to toss in "people" after any ethnicity or
>nationality. Some of the terms can have multiple meanings at that was the
>original reason for this IIRC. What do you guys think?
>
>On 2/5/07, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>  
>
>>>"...Also without assuming bad faith I have to ask why people would be so
>>>concerned with moving this category..- Moshe Constantine Hassan
>>>Al-Silverburg"
>>>      
>>>
>>I interpreted that as assuming bad faith against the opposers, not the
>>proposer. It's rather ambiguous.
>>    
>>
>>>"Strong Oppose per IZAK, frankly I'm shocked that this is even up for
>>>discussion. ... -- Chabuk"
>>>"Oppose. ... Share Chabuk's outrage that we're even voting on this. JFW"
>>>      
>>>
>>Agreed, those are baffling and offensive comments, and should result
>>in warnings to the commenters. However, they are just 2 people - the
>>vast majority of people commenting did so with no problems at all.
>>
It's just another exercise in political correctness.  All sorts of words
can have multiple meanings, and freezing out a term because some
minority wants to read additional connotations into the use of the word
does not warrant suche an exercise.  Are we also changing "Buddhists"
into "Buddhist people", and doing the same for all the other religious
groups?  Such a discussion would be better placed at that general
religious level instead of singling out the Jews.

Whatever I may think of the specific issue I also think that anyone who
finds those opposing comments to be offensive is only looking for
excuses to be offended.  Also assuming that the the other person
assuming bad faith only seems to elevate the conversation to the silly
level of meta-bad-faith.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

White Cat
I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people
after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
   - Cool Cat

On 2/5/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Cool Cat wrote:
>
> >Perhaps, but changing the manual of style is premature at this point
> IMHO.
> >
> >A good number of the votes were as per  those comments pointed out here,
> >which is rather troublesome of course. But, I think the issue at hand is
> not
> >the number of uncivil comments directed at me, but the topic at hand.
> >
> >I think it is good practice to toss in "people" after any ethnicity or
> >nationality. Some of the terms can have multiple meanings at that was the
> >original reason for this IIRC. What do you guys think?
> >
> >On 2/5/07, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>"...Also without assuming bad faith I have to ask why people would be
> so
> >>>concerned with moving this category..- Moshe Constantine Hassan
> >>>Al-Silverburg"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I interpreted that as assuming bad faith against the opposers, not the
> >>proposer. It's rather ambiguous.
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Strong Oppose per IZAK, frankly I'm shocked that this is even up for
> >>>discussion. ... -- Chabuk"
> >>>"Oppose. ... Share Chabuk's outrage that we're even voting on this.
> JFW"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Agreed, those are baffling and offensive comments, and should result
> >>in warnings to the commenters. However, they are just 2 people - the
> >>vast majority of people commenting did so with no problems at all.
> >>
> It's just another exercise in political correctness.  All sorts of words
> can have multiple meanings, and freezing out a term because some
> minority wants to read additional connotations into the use of the word
> does not warrant suche an exercise.  Are we also changing "Buddhists"
> into "Buddhist people", and doing the same for all the other religious
> groups?  Such a discussion would be better placed at that general
> religious level instead of singling out the Jews.
>
> Whatever I may think of the specific issue I also think that anyone who
> finds those opposing comments to be offensive is only looking for
> excuses to be offended.  Also assuming that the the other person
> assuming bad faith only seems to elevate the conversation to the silly
> level of meta-bad-faith.
>
> Ec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
> It's just another exercise in political correctness.

How can calling a Jewish person a Jew be not politically correct?
That's crazy...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

White Cat
I don't think that the the point of adding people. "Politically correctness"
plays no role in categorization.

   - Cool Cat

On 2/5/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > It's just another exercise in political correctness.
>
> How can calling a Jewish person a Jew be not politically correct?
> That's crazy...
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Luna-4
In reply to this post by White Cat
On 2/5/07, Cool Cat <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Perhaps, but changing the manual of style is premature at this point IMHO.
>
> A good number of the votes were as per  those comments pointed out here,
> which is rather troublesome of course. But, I think the issue at hand is
> not
> the number of uncivil comments directed at me, but the topic at hand.
>
> I think it is good practice to toss in "people" after any ethnicity or
> nationality. Some of the terms can have multiple meanings at that was the
> original reason for this IIRC. What do you guys think?
>


That's the tricky thing, as I see it -- the ethnic categories have a strong
preference to add "people," where the religious categories have a strong
preference to avoid doing so. Since we've been using "Jew" to refer to both
ethnic and religious aspects, I'm not comfortable saying that either of the
two uses would take a clear precedence over the other.

I'm all in favor of naming consistency. This is unfortunately a case where
ANY result will break naming consistency -- it's sort've moot, then. With
that in mind, I turn to the categories main article, [[Jew]], and I think
I'm comfortable with that. Toss in the number of people who are (for reasons
I don't quite follow, unfortunately) strongly and emotionally opposed to the
move, and my general tendency to avoid intentionally angering good
contributors likewise tips my scale a bit towards the status quo.

That said, I'm left bewildered by the number of people who seem to be
offended by what looks to me to have been a good-faith proposal. *shrug*

-Luna
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by White Cat
Cool Cat wrote:

>I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people
>after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
>   - Cool Cat
>
It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

jayjg
On 2/5/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Cool Cat wrote:
>
> >I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people
> >after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
> >   - Cool Cat
> >
> It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion.
>
> Ec

And an ethnicity, of course.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

The Cunctator
On 2/5/07, jayjg <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2/5/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Cool Cat wrote:
> >
> > >I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people
> > >after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
> > >   - Cool Cat
> > >
> > It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion.
> >
> > Ec
>
> And an ethnicity, of course.


Please, please keep this off the list.

I mean, I know that I am horribly guilty about getting into off-topic
discussions that border on flame wars, but I remember dealing with this
dispute on Wikipedia in 2001....
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

David Gerard-2
On 05/02/07, The Cunctator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please, please keep this off the list.
> I mean, I know that I am horribly guilty about getting into off-topic
> discussions that border on flame wars, but I remember dealing with this
> dispute on Wikipedia in 2001....


I have this most interesting online encyclopedia to hand with an
article in it called [[Jew]], which, despite being fairly busily
edited, has a decently informative intro and subsection on the matter.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Ray Saintonge
David Gerard wrote:

>On 05/02/07, The Cunctator <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Please, please keep this off the list.
>>I mean, I know that I am horribly guilty about getting into off-topic
>>discussions that border on flame wars, but I remember dealing with this
>>dispute on Wikipedia in 2001....
>>    
>>
>I have this most interesting online encyclopedia to hand with an
>article in it called [[Jew]], which, despite being fairly busily
>edited, has a decently informative intro and subsection on the matter.
>
Exactly.  That subsection establishes that Judaism is multi-ethnic.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

stevertigo-2
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
On 2/5/07, The Cunctator <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Please, please keep this off the list.
>

(nods in agreement).

Luna seems to have all the points covered.  My suggestion would be to not
use exonyms
for cultures at all and use only the native language term.

-SV
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Daniel P. B. Smith
In reply to this post by White Cat
>
>> I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has  
>> people
>> after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
>>   - Cool Cat
>>
> It's not an ethnicity; it's a religion.
>
> Ec

Old joke:

Q: What is a Jew?

A: A person who asks, "what is a Jew?"

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Category:Jews -> Category:Jewsih people

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by White Cat
Cool Cat wrote:
> I do not believe Jews are singled out. Every other ethnicity has people
> after them. Jews are the only ethnicity without it.
>

It's all part of of the grand Zionist conspiracy, of course.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP


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