[WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
38 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Ron Ritzman
Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the term
"groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between the
two or does it depend on which side of a "consensus" decision you are
on? That is, if an article you wrote/are involved with survives AFD,
then it's "consensus", if it gets deleted, it's "groupthink". Of
course it's the other way around if it's an article you don't like.

Same with an edit to an active article. If the edit stands, it's
"consensus" if it's constantly reverted and your persistence gets you
banned by a "rogue admin (tm)", it's "groupthink".

Therefore, I have to wonder if "groupthink", as long as it doesn't
lead to an [[Abilene paradox]] might not just be another way of saying
"consensus" which can either be good or bad. Good if the "consensus"
decision squares with previously established policies, bad if it
doesn't.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
For me "groupthink" has a particular nasty negative conotation.
A dictionary or "wiktionary" might be useful in determining the difference.

Mgm

On 1/29/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the term
> "groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between the
> two or does it depend on which side of a "consensus" decision you are
> on? That is, if an article you wrote/are involved with survives AFD,
> then it's "consensus", if it gets deleted, it's "groupthink". Of
> course it's the other way around if it's an article you don't like.
>
> Same with an edit to an active article. If the edit stands, it's
> "consensus" if it's constantly reverted and your persistence gets you
> banned by a "rogue admin (tm)", it's "groupthink".
>
> Therefore, I have to wonder if "groupthink", as long as it doesn't
> lead to an [[Abilene paradox]] might not just be another way of saying
> "consensus" which can either be good or bad. Good if the "consensus"
> decision squares with previously established policies, bad if it
> doesn't.
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
On 1/29/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the term
> "groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between the

"Groupthink" may well be synonymous with "team spirit" or somesuch,
but with the opposite connotation.

Steve

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Rich Holton
Steve Bennett wrote:
> On 1/29/07, Ron Ritzman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the term
>> "groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between the
>
> "Groupthink" may well be synonymous with "team spirit" or somesuch,
> but with the opposite connotation.
>
> Steve
>

Not that I've thought about it a lot, but I associate groupthink with a
situation in which any sort of disagreement is discouraged by social
pressure. Not so much that differing ideas are "outvoted" by the group,
but that the person offering a different idea is ostracized until they
conform.

So, for me, groupthink is very different from consensus. However, I do
think we see some instances of groupthink in some areas of Wikipedia.

For instance, calling someone a "troll" for (even very persistently)
disagreeing is a step in the direction of groupthink.

Just my 2 cents to the thread...

-Rich Holton

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Rob Smith-3
Groupthink refers to collective faith in the infallibility of a project,
often with disasterous consequences.

nobs01
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

PeterAnsell
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 29/01/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> For me "groupthink" has a particular nasty negative conotation.
> A dictionary or "wiktionary" might be useful in determining the difference.
>
> Mgm
>

I actually have pretty much the same negative connotation with
"consensus" after observing some of the ways people use that term on
wikipedia. Current use dictates meaning.

Peter Ansell

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Marc Riddell
In reply to this post by Rich Holton
on 1/28/07 11:41 PM, Rich Holton at [hidden email] wrote:

> I associate groupthink with a
> situation in which any sort of disagreement is discouraged by social
> pressure. Not so much that differing ideas are "outvoted" by the group,
> but that the person offering a different idea is ostracized until they
> conform.
>
> So, for me, groupthink is very different from consensus. However, I do
> think we see some instances of groupthink in some areas of Wikipedia.
>
> For instance, calling someone a "troll" for (even very persistently)
> disagreeing is a step in the direction of groupthink.
>
> Just my 2 cents to the thread...


Well said! Your input is worth much more than two cents. And don't forget
the presence of the person who decides the flavor of the Kool Aid.

Marc Riddell


--
The culture's gonna get us before the climate ever does.


_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:09:27 -0500, "Ron Ritzman" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the term
>"groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between the
>two or does it depend on which side of a "consensus" decision you are
>on? That is, if an article you wrote/are involved with survives AFD,
>then it's "consensus", if it gets deleted, it's "groupthink". Of
>course it's the other way around if it's an article you don't like.

It's one of those irregular verbs: we are consensus, you are a baying
mob, they are groupthink.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
I would say groupthink is a form of consensus (an undesirable one),
but not all consensus is groupthink.

Consensus is (very roughly) general agreement. Everyone agreeing
because they're being manipulated to in some underhand way is still
everyone agreeing, however there are other ways of reaching such an
agreement.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Rob Smith-3
In groupthink, assumptions by error are common.  Each member relying on the
next member to do his job properly.  A system of internal audits, or checks
and balances is designed to counter this.  The real disasterous consequences
occur when the internal regulators get caught up in the same pride the
contributing workers are vulnerable to.

nobs01
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

The Cunctator
On 1/29/07, Rob Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In groupthink, assumptions by error are common.  Each member relying on
> the
> next member to do his job properly.  A system of internal audits, or
> checks
> and balances is designed to counter this.  The real disasterous
> consequences
> occur when the internal regulators get caught up in the same pride the
> contributing workers are vulnerable to.


Exactly.

Groupthink is when everyone involved assumes that someone else has done XYZ
crucial piece of error-checking.

Consensus is when a group of people who have been doing independent analyses
come together and find common ground with what they've been presenting.
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Earle Martin
In reply to this post by Guy Chapman aka JzG
On 29/01/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It's one of those irregular verbs: we are consensus, you are a baying
> mob, they are groupthink.

Coincidentally enough, I learnt this lovely word from Wikipedia today:
[[ochlocracy]].

--
Earle Martin
            http://downlode.org/
http://purl.org/net/earlemartin/

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Rob Smith-3
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
http://nobsopus.blogspot.com/2007/01/groupthink-and-holocaust-denial-in.html
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

SonOfYoungwood
It's funny; I was learning about groups and the five phases of groupwork and the concept of "groupthink" today in Management...
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"


http://nobsopus.blogspot.com/2007/01/groupthink-and-holocaust-denial-in.html
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Ron Ritzman
On 1/29/07, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> sig said:

> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Could this (I assume "compulsory") sig be an example of AOL corporate
groupthink?

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Ron Ritzman
In reply to this post by Rich Holton
On 1/28/07, Rich Holton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For instance, calling someone a "troll" for (even very persistently)
> disagreeing is a step in the direction of groupthink.

I would agree if it were a regular poster but if someone pops up out
of nowhere and starts opposing the group on one or more issues, then
there is a good chance that person is a "troll". A real honest
detractor will agree with the group on some issues and disagree on
others.

That's the way I saw it on usenet. An honest detractor would have a
non-troll posting history in the group in question or at least in
other groups. A troll drops out of the sky and starts flaming people.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

William Pietri
In reply to this post by The Cunctator
The Cunctator wrote:
> Groupthink is when everyone involved assumes that someone else has done XYZ
> crucial piece of error-checking.
>  

That's very close to my understanding of the term. As I mentioned
elsewhere, I'm involved in a startup. One of the most frequently
mentioned fears is "groupthink", by which we mean mistaking being in
accord for being right. As Guy says, though, I usually hear it as a
pejorative.

William

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Ron Ritzman
On 1/29/07, William Pietri <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's very close to my understanding of the term. As I mentioned
> elsewhere, I'm involved in a startup. One of the most frequently
> mentioned fears is "groupthink", by which we mean mistaking being in
> accord for being right. As Guy says, though, I usually hear it as a
> pejorative.

Actually, that's a specific kind of groupthink called the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox.

_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

Rob Smith-3
In reply to this post by William Pietri
The article lists the Challenger explosion and Bay of Pigs as
examples. The Enron scandal, where "unconsolidated equity affiliates"
destroyed 21,000 jobs and how many billions in losses should also qualify.
Perhaps the Iraqi war or the House Managers in the Clinton Impeachment are
other examples.

nobs01
_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [WikiEN-l] Consensus vs "groupthink"

SonOfYoungwood
In reply to this post by Ron Ritzman
 
 
In a message dated 1/29/2007 8:28:34 AM Central Standard Time,  
[hidden email] writes:

>Seeing how a few detractors here have been throwing around the  term
>"groupthink" I have to ask, is there any real difference between  the
>two or does it depend on which side of a "consensus" decision you  are
>on? That is, if an article you wrote/are involved with survives  AFD,
>then it's "consensus", if it gets deleted, it's "groupthink".  Of
>course it's the other way around if it's an article you don't  like.


Consensus is where people discuss and agree on something, usually  after
hearing all options. Consensus is often modified. On the other hand,  groupthink
is where people shut themselves off from minority ideas or  ammendments,
because they believe everything is already "just fine". In other  words: consensus
means constantly being open to new discussions and change,  whereas groupthink
shuts the valve for new ideas. And if you don't comply to  groupthink, you are
shut out instead of looked on respectfully.
 
Most companies fail because of groupthink.
 
 
| Tyler | Zorin Deckiller |
| Wikipedia Administrator |  Former SWU member |
| _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deckiller_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Deckiller)   |
| _http://www.myspace.com/redsectora_ (http://www.myspace.com/redsectora)   |




_______________________________________________
WikiEN-l mailing list
[hidden email]
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
12