[WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

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[WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

fredbaud
'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need citation!"'

From a gamers forum post at

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=856122&postcount=3

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Guy Chapman aka JzG
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:38:38 +0000, "Fred Bauder"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's
>getting to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without
>one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need
>citation!"'  
             {{fact}}

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Guettarda
On 1/13/07, Guy Chapman aka JzG <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 15:38:38 +0000, "Fred Bauder"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's
> >getting to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without
> >one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need
> >citation!"'
>              {{fact}}


Yeah Fred, what kind of sourcing is this...a forum posting??  See WP:RS - posts
to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not
be used as sources. :)

Ian
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

geni
In reply to this post by fredbaud
On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original >research! Need citation!"'

Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
as much as twice a day.

--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Matthew Britton-2
geni wrote:
> On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original >research! Need citation!"'
>
> Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
> blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
> Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
> as much as twice a day.
>

Indeed. I'd say it's spent more time being grey than blue, recently.
Miserable weather...

-Gurch

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Michael Snow
In reply to this post by fredbaud
Gurch wrote:

> geni wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's
>>> getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue
>>> without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original
>>> >research! Need citation!"'
>>
>> Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
>> blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
>> Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
>> as much as twice a day.
>>
> Indeed. I'd say it's spent more time being grey than blue, recently.
> Miserable weather...

I'd be very happy if we could have a little wikiality declare my sky to
be blue right about now.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Oskar Sigvardsson
In reply to this post by Matthew Britton-2
On 1/13/07, Gurch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> geni wrote:
> > On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original >research! Need citation!"'
> >
> > Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
> > blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
> > Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
> > as much as twice a day.
> >
>
> Indeed. I'd say it's spent more time being grey than blue, recently.
> Miserable weather...

Mine is green. Huh. There you go. Could be because of all those shrooms....

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Luna-4
In reply to this post by fredbaud
On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting
> to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these
> little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need citation!"'
>
> From a gamers forum post at
>
> http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=856122&postcount=3
>
> Fred


Well, if he'd just stop posting original research and provide a few good
citations...
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Daniel P. B. Smith
In reply to this post by fredbaud
> On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's  
>> getting
>> to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without one  
>> of these
>> little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need citation!"'

Next time it happens, ask him to contact me:
"The blue sky is so commonplace that it is taken for granted"  
Schaefer, Vincent J.; John A. Day (1998). A Field Guide to the  
Atmosphere. Houghton Mifflin Field Guides. ISBN 0395976316.

"It is now well established that the luminosity and blue colour on  
very clear days and at considerable altitudes above the sea-level can  
almost be accounted for by the scattering of light by the molecules  
of air, without postulating suspended particles of foreign matter."  
R. J. Strutt (Lord Rayleigh), Proceedings of the Royal Society of  
London. Series A, 94(662), June 01, 1918, pp. 453 - 459.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Daniel P. B. Smith
In reply to this post by fredbaud
> From: geni <[hidden email]>
>
> On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's  
>> getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue  
>> without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original  
>> >research! Need citation!"'
>
> Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
> blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
> Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
> as much as twice a day.

Yeah, and remember the song from South Pacific: "When the sky is a  
bright canary yellow/I forget every cloud I’ve ever seen./So they  
call me a cockeyed optimist,/Immature and incurably green..."

Actually, I've been brooding about this topic since it came up last  
year, and I've been troubled by the meta-question:

WHY is "the sky is blue" taken as the emblematic unchallengeable  
fact, since it's not even close to being true?

I think the answer is that we've been brainwashed by being _told_ in  
elementary school that "the sky is blue," and we continue to believe  
it as having some quality of magical truth to it, even though we can  
see with our own eyes that it is false.

In fact, I don't think we're actually told that the sky IS blue, I  
think we're told that we should "color the sky blue." On doing a  
little Google Books searching, I found some entries that suggest that  
the reason we were told that is not because it is a science fact that  
little minds should know, but because coloring is a classic  
educational arena for teaching children how to follow instructions:
"Children must learn to follow directions for many reasons... Say,  
"Color the sky blue." Children then are ready to be given two  
instructions to follow, and they follow them in order: "Color the  
grass green and the sky blue." •Next they learn to follow three  
instructions..." Burmeister, Lou E. (1983). Foundations and  
Strategies for Teaching Children to Read. Addison-Wesley. ISBN  
020110802X. , p. 103

"Now we are going to color some of the picture together," I tell  
them... "What color do you think Mary's dress could be?" They decide  
on blue. I move around as they color the dress. Then we look at shoes  
and color Mary's shoes black, and finally we color the grass green.  
Later they will get the chance to finish the picture using whatever  
colors they want. Approaching coloring in this way seems to help the  
children who have little or no experience with coloring and prevents  
them from taking one crayon and making random marks over the paper."  
Josephine McLaughlin, Sylvia Andrews (2003): "Soaring With Reading  
and Writing: a highly effective emergent literacy program," p. 67.

P. S. Speaking of things that we can see with our own eyes are  
false... Genesis 1:16 says "And God made two great lights; the  
greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the  
night: he made the stars also." Why aren't fundamentalists troubled  
by the fact that you frequently see the moon during the day, and  
frequently can't see it at night?
 
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Ken Arromdee
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007, Daniel P. B. Smith wrote:

> Actually, I've been brooding about this topic since it came up last  
> year, and I've been troubled by the meta-question:
>
> WHY is "the sky is blue" taken as the emblematic unchallengeable  
> fact, since it's not even close to being true?
>
> I think the answer is that we've been brainwashed by being _told_ in  
> elementary school that "the sky is blue," and we continue to believe  
> it as having some quality of magical truth to it, even though we can  
> see with our own eyes that it is false.

No, the answer is that some phrases are not meant to express universal
statements just because the literal words of the phrase don't include any
qualifiers.  "The sky is blue" doesn't mean "the sky is always blue, every
single place".  If I tell you that caviar is expensive, are you *really*
going to claim that I'm therefore denying the possibility that some store
could be going out of business and holding a 90% off sale on caviar?

It's like the joke about the programmer who read a bottle of shampoo saying
"lather, rinse, repeat" and died unable to get out of the infinite loop.

There's nothing wrong with the statement that the sky is blue, only with
people who insist on interpreting such statements in a boneheadedly literal
manner without comprehending them.


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

geni
On 1/14/07, Ken Arromdee <[hidden email]> wrote:
> No, the answer is that some phrases are not meant to express universal
> statements just because the literal words of the phrase don't include any
> qualifiers.  "The sky is blue" doesn't mean "the sky is always blue, every
> single place".  If I tell you that caviar is expensive, are you *really*
> going to claim that I'm therefore denying the possibility that some store
> could be going out of business and holding a 90% off sale on caviar?
>

I think people would object if it could be shown that caviar was cheap
50+% of the time.





--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Steve Bennett-8
In reply to this post by Matthew Britton-2
On 1/14/07, Gurch <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Indeed. I'd say it's spent more time being grey than blue, recently.
> Miserable weather...

If only it was the weather. Around here (Melbourne), it's nearby
bushfires filling the sky with smoke and haze. Blue would be a nice
change!

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

phoebe ayers-3
In reply to this post by Daniel P. B. Smith
On 1/13/07, Daniel P. B. Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > From: geni <[hidden email]>
> >
> > On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's
> >> getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue
> >> without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original
> >> >research! Need citation!"'
> >
> > Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
> > blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
> > Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
> > as much as twice a day.
>
> Yeah, and remember the song from South Pacific: "When the sky is a
> bright canary yellow/I forget every cloud I've ever seen./So they
> call me a cockeyed optimist,/Immature and incurably green..."
>
> Actually, I've been brooding about this topic since it came up last
> year, and I've been troubled by the meta-question:
>
> WHY is "the sky is blue" taken as the emblematic unchallengeable
> fact, since it's not even close to being true?
>
> I think the answer is that we've been brainwashed by being _told_ in
> elementary school that "the sky is blue," and we continue to believe
> it as having some quality of magical truth to it, even though we can
> see with our own eyes that it is false.


Or perhaps because when the sky *is* blue, it's so universally true: it
doesn't take any formal training or cultural reference or even particularly
sharp observation skills to determine that the sky is a particular color,
and to eventually figure out that color is associated with the absence of
clouds and storms. I'm reaching here, being no meteorologist, but I'd
imagine that every person everywhere who can see the sky has at some point
in their life seen it be a blue color. If true, this then is closer than
most things to being an universal shared external experience. Sky color is a
convenient reference (it's always there, after all), and thus a highly
convenient metaphor: it's not that anyone is literally talking about the
sky, any more than a child's drawing is a completely accurate portrait of
something. It's rather a good way to insert {{universally recognized
metaphor here so you have some idea of how I feel about this other thing
that I'm actually talking about}}, only in less words. Rather than wonder at
how children learn to view the world in colors, I'm amazed by how kids pick
up verbal metaphors and symbolism so easily.
-- phoebe

--
phoebe ayers | brassratgirl /at/ gmail.com |
"Reading, almost as much as breathing, is our essential function." --
Alberto Manguel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Ray Saintonge
phoebe ayers wrote:

>On 1/13/07, Daniel P. B. Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>>From: geni <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's
>>>>getting to the point where >you can't even say the sky is blue
>>>>without one of these little Napoleans squawking, "Original
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>research! Need citation!"'
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>Problem is whith that classic example is that the sky often isn't
>>>blue. It spends a fair bit of time being black with white bits.
>>>Depending on where you are grey may be popular and red/pink may appear
>>>as much as twice a day.
>>>      
>>>
>>Yeah, and remember the song from South Pacific: "When the sky is a
>>bright canary yellow/I forget every cloud I've ever seen./So they
>>call me a cockeyed optimist,/Immature and incurably green..."
>>
>>Actually, I've been brooding about this topic since it came up last
>>year, and I've been troubled by the meta-question:
>>
>>WHY is "the sky is blue" taken as the emblematic unchallengeable
>>fact, since it's not even close to being true?
>>
>>I think the answer is that we've been brainwashed by being _told_ in
>>elementary school that "the sky is blue," and we continue to believe
>>it as having some quality of magical truth to it, even though we can
>>see with our own eyes that it is false.
>>    
>>
>Or perhaps because when the sky *is* blue, it's so universally true: it
>doesn't take any formal training or cultural reference or even particularly
>sharp observation skills to determine that the sky is a particular color,
>and to eventually figure out that color is associated with the absence of
>clouds and storms. I'm reaching here, being no meteorologist, but I'd
>imagine that every person everywhere who can see the sky has at some point
>in their life seen it be a blue color. If true, this then is closer than
>most things to being an universal shared external experience. Sky color is a
>convenient reference (it's always there, after all), and thus a highly
>convenient metaphor: it's not that anyone is literally talking about the
>sky, any more than a child's drawing is a completely accurate portrait of
>something. It's rather a good way to insert {{universally recognized
>metaphor here so you have some idea of how I feel about this other thing
>that I'm actually talking about}}, only in less words. Rather than wonder at
>how children learn to view the world in colors, I'm amazed by how kids pick
>up verbal metaphors and symbolism so easily.
>
If one examines the etymology of "blue" back to Latin times one ends up
with "flavus" which meant "yellow".  For "blue" they used "caeruleus"
which is clearly derived from "caelum", the Latin for "sky".  The
English "cerulean" is a poetic word for "blue".  The sky belongs to the
definition of "blue" more than the reverse.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Little Napoleans

Roberto Alfonso
In reply to this post by fredbaud
On 1/13/07, Fred Bauder <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> 'I've run afoul of the rules lawyers on Wikipedia many times. It's getting
> to the point where you can't even say the sky is blue without one of these
> little Napoleans squawking, "Original research! Need citation!"'
>
> From a gamers forum post at
>
> http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=856122&postcount=3
>
> Fred
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>


Wait... I kind of remember those words... hey, I said them! Dang, wish I
could remember when and to who... sigh, I will have to keep a list at
[[User:ReyBrujo/Wikipedians who had left because of me]]. Well, I can start
adding 1ne to it right now...
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