[WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

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[WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Sage Ross
Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=

The whole thing is worth reading, but the gist of it is this paragraph:

"I am withdrawing from Citizendium because of the racist and sexist
policy put in place by Larry Sanger, who claims that the disciplines
of Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies do not belong in the list of top
level categories in Citizendium, or as individual categories at all.
Sanger has unilaterally decided that all race and gender topics
should be split up under traditional disciplinary headings, so that
there will be, for example, a sub-group of "African American
Literature," and "African American History," but no category -- at
any level -- in African American studies, and he embraces the same
tactic of fragmenting other Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies.  The
fact that his broad strokes of exclusion primarily effect women and
minority scholars does not seem to matter to him."

I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
who've been participating in Citizendium.  This persistence of this
kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
would be unfortunate in my view).

-Sage

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

· Firefoxman
What is Citizendium?


On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
>
>
> http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
>
> The whole thing is worth reading, but the gist of it is this paragraph:
>
> "I am withdrawing from Citizendium because of the racist and sexist
> policy put in place by Larry Sanger, who claims that the disciplines
> of Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies do not belong in the list of top
> level categories in Citizendium, or as individual categories at all.
> Sanger has unilaterally decided that all race and gender topics
> should be split up under traditional disciplinary headings, so that
> there will be, for example, a sub-group of "African American
> Literature," and "African American History," but no category -- at
> any level -- in African American studies, and he embraces the same
> tactic of fragmenting other Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies.  The
> fact that his broad strokes of exclusion primarily effect women and
> minority scholars does not seem to matter to him."
>
> I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> who've been participating in Citizendium.  This persistence of this
> kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> would be unfortunate in my view).
>
> -Sage
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Firefoxman
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

· Firefoxman
Nevermind, I read their site.

On 1/16/07, · Firefoxman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> What is Citizendium?
>
>
>  On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
> >
> >
> > http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
> >
> > The whole thing is worth reading, but the gist of it is this paragraph:
> >
> > "I am withdrawing from Citizendium because of the racist and sexist
> > policy put in place by Larry Sanger, who claims that the disciplines
> > of Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies do not belong in the list of top
> > level categories in Citizendium, or as individual categories at all.
> > Sanger has unilaterally decided that all race and gender topics
> > should be split up under traditional disciplinary headings, so that
> > there will be, for example, a sub-group of "African American
> > Literature," and "African American History," but no category -- at
> > any level -- in African American studies, and he embraces the same
> > tactic of fragmenting other Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies.  The
> > fact that his broad strokes of exclusion primarily effect women and
> > minority scholars does not seem to matter to him."
> >
> > I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> > who've been participating in Citizendium.  This persistence of this
> > kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> > probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> > would be unfortunate in my view).
> >
> > -Sage
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Firefoxman




--
Firefoxman
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by Sage Ross
On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
>
> >http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
>

Oh is she still sending that out? It surfaced back in december on her blog:

http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml



> I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> who've been participating in Citizendium.

I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).

> This persistence of this
> kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> would be unfortunate in my view).

I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
to Citizendium.

--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Philip Sandifer-2


On Jan 16, 2007, at 2:39 PM, geni wrote:

>
> I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
> managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
> to Citizendium.

The decision in question is without a doubt a bad one that  
fundamentally de-emphasizes major academic disciplines in favor of an  
underinformed view that has no place in a project supposedly devoted  
to experts.

It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't  
surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an  
encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of  
the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what  
mainstream academic thought is.

Not that Citizendium is a bad idea. Just that Larry Sanger is the  
wrong person to run it.

-Phil
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

David Gerard-2
In reply to this post by geni
On 16/01/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
> managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
> to Citizendium.


Indeed. I haven't actually managed to write anything there *blush* but
it's an active project with a small but enthusiastic community working
on it and public access planned to be started this month.

Citizendium aims to outdo Wikipedia, but I wouldn't say it's an enemy
or competitor. There's got to be more than one way to do this "free
encyclopedia" thing. I fear in ten years time the proprietary general
encyclopedias will have insignificant market share, and if there's a
really good encyclopedia it's going to have to be Wikipedia or a fork
of it. But if it's a fork, at least there's a good one.

'Open content' itself is still unusual and remarkable in itself.
Citizendium is working with great focus to get traction and
credibility inside academia itself, which will further the reach of
the concept.

And the more open content in the world, and the more well-known open
content resources in the world, the better for us and everyone.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Sage Ross

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sage Ross [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 11:48 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
>Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
>
>http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
>
>The whole thing is worth reading, but the gist of it is this paragraph:
>
>"I am withdrawing from Citizendium because of the racist and sexist
>policy put in place by Larry Sanger, who claims that the disciplines
>of Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies do not belong in the list of top
>level categories in Citizendium, or as individual categories at all.
>Sanger has unilaterally decided that all race and gender topics
>should be split up under traditional disciplinary headings, so that
>there will be, for example, a sub-group of "African American
>Literature," and "African American History," but no category -- at
>any level -- in African American studies, and he embraces the same
>tactic of fragmenting other Ethnic Studies and Gender Studies.  The
>fact that his broad strokes of exclusion primarily effect women and
>minority scholars does not seem to matter to him."
>
>I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
>who've been participating in Citizendium.  This persistence of this
>kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
>probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
>would be unfortunate in my view).
>
>-Sage

Kali Tal's blog postings:

http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml
http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/update_on_racism_and_sexism_at.shtml

I am not a participant, but have read her blog postings regarding this matter, and am well acquainted with Larry. Larry insisted  that rather than fall under Ethnic studies, African-American Literature would fall under American Literature. Tal claims that enough knowledge has been generated by Ethic and Gender Studies to justify a separate expert review system for subjects which could fall within their purview.

She is rather like Larry, does not suffer fools....

I don't think this incident is particularly significant. We would have trouble with her here if she was or is an active editor. Like Larry, she knows the answers, learned them as a sophomore.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

MacGyverMagic/Mgm
In reply to this post by geni
You seem to know more about it.
Are you saying her accusations are unfounded?

Mgm


On 1/16/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 1/16/07, Sage Ross <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:
> >
> > >
> http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-afro-am&month=0701&week=b&msg=JIarw4S/UalprGLZ2cp5NA&user=&pw=
> >
>
> Oh is she still sending that out? It surfaced back in december on her
> blog:
>
>
> http://www.freshmonsters.com/kalital/archives/2006/11/racism_and_sexism_at_citizendi.shtml
>
>
>
> > I'm interested to know the reactions of the Wikipedians on this list
> > who've been participating in Citizendium.
>
> I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
> NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).
>
> > This persistence of this
> > kind of thing, especially entrenched at the policy level, would
> > probably spell the doom of Citizendium's long-term prospects (which
> > would be unfortunate in my view).
>
> I doubt it. To me it loks like one person went looking for a fight and
> managed to find one. I still think "wait and see" is the best aproach
> to Citizendium.
>
> --
> geni
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by geni
On 1/16/07, geni <[hidden email]> wrote


> I've been watching it (and sort of trying to stop them from adopting
> NC lisences but I'm not to concernded).

CZ more or less completely relies on GFDL-licensed text. Adopting an
NC license would be the easiest way of shooting themselves in the
foot. And in the head. So, I am not concerned, too :)

Mathias

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by · Firefoxman
On 1/16/07, · Firefoxman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What is Citizendium?
>

Larry Sanger's fifth yet-to-be-launched attempt to let someone else
write an encyclopedia.

If it is a success, I will call myself co-founder of it :)

Mathias

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Guy Chapman aka JzG
In reply to this post by Sage Ross
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 13:48:30 -0500, "Sage Ross"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Last week a Citizendium participant sent out this message on h-afro-am:

Could never happen on Wikipedia.  Deleting a list or category of
Jewish Anything is "removing people's cultural identity" and speedily
overturned.

Guy (JzG)
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JzG


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by MacGyverMagic/Mgm
On 1/16/07, MacGyverMagic/Mgm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You seem to know more about it.
> Are you saying her accusations are unfounded?
>
> Mgm
>

No idea. It's not an area I know much about since other than a few
skirmishes it isn't something that chemistry has much in the way of
dealings with.

However judging by Kali's actions she was looking for a fight and
found it. Larry's model is very top down so conflict of this type was
very likely to happen at some point.

--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
On 1/16/07, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> CZ more or less completely relies on GFDL-licensed text. Adopting an
> NC license would be the easiest way of shooting themselves in the
> foot. And in the head. So, I am not concerned, too :)
>
> Mathias

Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
had. Oh well.
--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
> Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
> but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
> had. Oh well.

Having different bits under different licenses sounds like a recipe
for disaster...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
On 1/16/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Eh it was only for images and completely new stuff so not imposible
> > but eh it would be a pain if we couldn't use some nice images they
> > had. Oh well.
>
> Having different bits under different licenses sounds like a recipe
> for disaster...
>

We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
thinking about copyright it can be done.


--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
> We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
> thinking about copyright it can be done.

Do we? All images have to be released under the GFDL, or something
compatible with it (ie. lets you do everything the GFDL lets you do,
and more - hardly comparable to some parts of a site being under a NC
license, and the rest under GFDL). (NB: Fair use is not a license.)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
On 1/16/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > We manage with images. As long as you have a few people who never stop
> > thinking about copyright it can be done.
>
> Do we?

For the most part. On a good day

>All images have to be released under the GFDL, or something
> compatible with it (ie. lets you do everything the GFDL lets you do,
> and more - hardly comparable to some parts of a site being under a NC
> license, and the rest under GFDL). (NB: Fair use is not a license.)
>

False the GFDL lets you release derivative images under the GFDL. Free
art, CC-by-SA, CeCILL, GPL, and LGPL ( I really don't understand how
images count as source code but that isn't my problem) wont let you
release derivatives under the GFDL
--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Mark Wagner-2
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
On 1/16/07, Mathias Schindler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 1/16/07, · Firefoxman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What is Citizendium?
> >
>
> Larry Sanger's fifth yet-to-be-launched attempt to let someone else
> write an encyclopedia.

Fifth?  I know about Nupedia, Wikipedia, one whose name I can't
remember, and Citizendium, but what one am I missing?

--
Mark
[[User:Carnildo]]
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Nina Stratton
In reply to this post by geni
I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
all I need and all I will ever need.

I wish Citizendium well, but this latest bit of news comes as no surprise.
We'll hear more.

Nina


"Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and
conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

George William Herbert
On 1/16/07, Nina Stratton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
> never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
> anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
> all I need and all I will ever need.
>
> I wish Citizendium well, but this latest bit of news comes as no surprise.
> We'll hear more.
>
> Nina

This is one of the hard problems - having "experts" tell us not to be
interested in a topic is really bad policy, but sometimes "how do we
organize this information" is a much harder problem, often requiring
professional help.

It seems like this was just an argument over organization or taxonomy,
not content.  But I haven't seen good detailed info on it yet...


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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