[WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Daniel R. Tobias
On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't  
> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an  
> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of  
> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what  
> mainstream academic thought is.

Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.


--
== Dan ==
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Philip Sandifer-2


On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:

> On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't
>> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an
>> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of
>> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what
>> mainstream academic thought is.
>
> Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
> deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.

To be clear, I'm fine with that. It's a respectable viewpoint.

But it's a damn stupid viewpoint for anyone looking to write an  
encyclopedia that favors "experts." The experts go for that right  
now. If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should  
work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts  
if he's going to dismiss the experts.

-Phil
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

George William Herbert
On 1/16/07, Phil Sandifer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:06 AM, Daniel R. Tobias wrote:
>
> > On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't
> >> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an
> >> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of
> >> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what
> >> mainstream academic thought is.
> >
> > Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
> > deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.
>
> To be clear, I'm fine with that. It's a respectable viewpoint.
>
> But it's a damn stupid viewpoint for anyone looking to write an
> encyclopedia that favors "experts." The experts go for that right
> now. If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should
> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts
> if he's going to dismiss the experts.
>
> -Phil

The problem with experts is that, outside the hard sciences and
engineering, you get so many opinions per expert, most of them
mutually contradictory at some level...

(ducking to avoid the brie and wine my humanist colleagues are
launching in my general direction)


--
-george william herbert
[hidden email]

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Mathias Schindler-2
In reply to this post by Mark Wagner-2
On 1/17/07, Mark Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Fifth?  I know about Nupedia, Wikipedia, one whose name I can't
> remember, and Citizendium, but what one am I missing?

Encyclopedia of Earth and "Digital Universe Encyclopedia".

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by geni
> >All images have to be released under the GFDL, or something
> > compatible with it (ie. lets you do everything the GFDL lets you do,
> > and more - hardly comparable to some parts of a site being under a NC
> > license, and the rest under GFDL). (NB: Fair use is not a license.)
> >
>
> False the GFDL lets you release derivative images under the GFDL. Free
> art, CC-by-SA, CeCILL, GPL, and LGPL ( I really don't understand how
> images count as source code but that isn't my problem) wont let you
> release derivatives under the GFDL

I don't follow you. Derivatives of what? If the original image is
released under GFDL, then you can (and I think must, in most
circumstances) release the derivative under GFDL, but multiple
licenses doesn't come into it, so it's an irrelevant point...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by George William Herbert
On 1/17/07, George Herbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  but sometimes "how do we
> organize this information" is a much harder problem, often requiring
> professional help.
>

We get by. The answer appears to be "in as may ways as posible".

--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 1/17/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I don't follow you. Derivatives of what?

The image

> If the original image is
> released under GFDL, then you can (and I think must, in most
> circumstances) release the derivative under GFDL, but multiple
> licenses doesn't come into it, so it's an irrelevant point...
>

Yes they do. If an image is under free art you have to release any
derivitivies under free art and can't release them under the GFDL.
Thus callinging them compatible is false.

--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
> Yes they do. If an image is under free art you have to release any
> derivitivies under free art and can't release them under the GFDL.
> Thus callinging them compatible is false.

I never said free art was compatible with GFDL. There are licenses
which are compatible (I'm no expert, so I'm not going to try and name
any), those are the only images that can be on Wikipedia that aren't
released (explicitly) until GFDL (excluding fair use).

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
On 1/17/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Yes they do. If an image is under free art you have to release any
> > derivitivies under free art and can't release them under the GFDL.
> > Thus callinging them compatible is false.
>
> I never said free art was compatible with GFDL. There are licenses
> which are compatible (I'm no expert, so I'm not going to try and name
> any), those are the only images that can be on Wikipedia that aren't
> released (explicitly) until GFDL (excluding fair use).
>

umm we use Free art images on wikipedia.
[[Image:Heckert_GNU_white.svg]] for example.


--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Sage Ross
"David Gerard" wrote

> 'Open content' itself is still unusual and remarkable in itself.
> Citizendium is working with great focus to get traction and
> credibility inside academia itself, which will further the reach of
> the concept.

Credibility is good. I think Wikipedia's oblique, zagging run in that direction has been very interesting, in fact. It is still not proven that doing the things that 'everyone' says are necessary for credibility in the academy is also sufficient.

Charles

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

David Gerard-2
On 17/01/07, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> "David Gerard" wrote

> > 'Open content' itself is still unusual and remarkable in itself.
> > Citizendium is working with great focus to get traction and
> > credibility inside academia itself, which will further the reach of
> > the concept.

> Credibility is good. I think Wikipedia's oblique, zagging run in that direction has been very interesting, in fact. It is still not proven that doing the things that 'everyone' says are necessary for credibility in the academy is also sufficient.


Larry Sanger seems to be doing a lot of one-to-one outreach to
academia. If he can work out a way for contribution to a GFDL
encyclopedia to enhance an academic career, the growth in quality
contributions to the open content pool should be fantastic.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Sage Ross

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniel R. Tobias [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:06 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
>On 16 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Phil Sandifer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It points to a fundamental flaw in Citizendium, and one that wouldn't  
>> surprise anyone who saw Larry's name attached to it - it's an  
>> encyclopedia that favors experts that's run by someone with a view of  
>> the academy that is wildly out of step with current senses of what  
>> mainstream academic thought is.
>
>Out of step with the leftist PC bullshit that's been piled high and
>deep on most campuses since the '60s, anyway.
>

That is certainly one way to look at it, but here we would called the "bullshit" a significant viewpoint which under NPOV ought to be fairly represented.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by geni
> umm we use Free art images on wikipedia.
> [[Image:Heckert_GNU_white.svg]] for example.

I've just read the Free Art license. Are we not violating the following section?

"3. INCORPORATION OF ARTWORK

All the elements of this work of art must remain free, which is why
you are not allowed to integrate the originals (originals and
subsequents) into another work which would not be subject to this
license."

We are integrating the artwork into Wikipedia, which is not subject to
that license...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

David Gerard-2
On 17/01/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > umm we use Free art images on wikipedia.
> > [[Image:Heckert_GNU_white.svg]] for example.

> I've just read the Free Art license. Are we not violating the following section?
> "3. INCORPORATION OF ARTWORK
> All the elements of this work of art must remain free, which is why
> you are not allowed to integrate the originals (originals and
> subsequents) into another work which would not be subject to this
> license."
> We are integrating the artwork into Wikipedia, which is not subject to
> that license...


A work can't claim copyright on another work. "Viral licences" aren't.
What they can do is require distribution of a merged work to only be
under their conditions. An image on an article page is an aggregation
of two separate works, the text and picture.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Sage Ross

>-----Original Message-----
>From: geni [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 05:48 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
>On 1/17/07, George Herbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  but sometimes "how do we
>> organize this information" is a much harder problem, often requiring
>> professional help.
>>
>
>We get by. The answer appears to be "in as may ways as posible".
>
>--
>geni
>

That is really an excellent answer. Most of the trouble we have results from trying to impose some pattern on knowledge, which, as we know, wants to be free.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
> A work can't claim copyright on another work. "Viral licences" aren't.
> What they can do is require distribution of a merged work to only be
> under their conditions. An image on an article page is an aggregation
> of two separate works, the text and picture.

There is a difference between restricting what work your work can be
incorporated in, and claiming copyright. The free art license isn't
saying "if you include this image in your work, then your work is
automatically under our license" it's saying "the only work you can
include this image in is work released under this license" - they are
very different things.

I don't see how the page being an aggregation of two separate works is
relevant - the page as a whole is a work, and the Free Art image has
been incorporated into it.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Charles Matthews
In reply to this post by Sage Ross
"David Gerard" wrote

> Larry Sanger seems to be doing a lot of one-to-one outreach to
> academia. If he can work out a way for contribution to a GFDL
> encyclopedia to enhance an academic career, the growth in quality
> contributions to the open content pool should be fantastic.

The people slogging for tenure will do it? The professors won't delegate it to the grad students? The grad students won't be the people who are already writing for us?

If Larry gets tenure-track people to believe it will help them, then it really might be a breakthrough.

Charles

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Sage Ross

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 07:41 AM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
>"David Gerard" wrote
>
>> Larry Sanger seems to be doing a lot of one-to-one outreach to
>> academia. If he can work out a way for contribution to a GFDL
>> encyclopedia to enhance an academic career, the growth in quality
>> contributions to the open content pool should be fantastic.
>
>The people slogging for tenure will do it? The professors won't delegate it to the grad students? The grad students won't be the people who are already writing for us?
>
>If Larry gets tenure-track people to believe it will help them, then it really might be a breakthrough.
>
>Charles
>

I think any of us, if asked, should be willing to write recommendations for contributors. Whether they will have traction will depend on how knowledgeable and intelligent the person considering it is.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Charles Matthews
> If Larry gets tenure-track people to believe it will help them, then it really might be a breakthrough.

The breakthrough is getting the people that decide who to give tenure
to think contributing to Citizendium is a good thing, and I can't see
why they would. Universities want researchers doing research, because
that's what gets funding. Writing textbooks is important, but I don't
think you generally get tenure for it, and that's the closest
comparison I can see.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Sage Ross-2
In reply to this post by fredbaud
> >The people slogging for tenure will do it? The professors won't delegate it to the grad students? The grad students won't be the people who are already writing for us?
> >
> >If Larry gets tenure-track people to believe it will help them, then it really might be a breakthrough.
> >
> >Charles
> >

I think the first scenario would still be a major breakthrough;
requiring graduate students to write their literature papers for
Wikipedia is a whole different beast from (a few idealistic) graduate
students writing on top of their other duties.  Any sort of
large-scale validation within the academy of the value of writing for
Wikipedia would be a huge step forward, even without formal
recognition mechanisms for tenure-track people.  In the humanities at
least, the book-writing culture is pretty solidly entrenched.  There's
more flexibility at the pre-degree and post-tenure stages.

>
> I think any of us, if asked, should be willing to write recommendations for contributors. Whether they will have traction will depend on how knowledgeable and intelligent the person considering it is.
>
> Fred
>

That's an excellent idea.  When the time comes that I need letters of
recommendation, I'll call on a Wikipedian or two; even if it doesn't
help me, it might help someone down the line as a precedent.

-Sage

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