[WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Marc Riddell


> From: "Nina Stratton" <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:20:23 -0800
> To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>
> On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: "Nina Stratton" <[hidden email]>
>>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
>>> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:20:48 -0800
>>> To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
>>>
>>> +!
>>>
>>> On 1/17/07, Stan Shebs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Phil Sandifer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should
>>>>> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts
>>>>> if he's going to dismiss the experts.
>>>>>
>>>> There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP;
>>>> expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically confer
>>>> diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great
>>>> knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not
>>>> less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the
>>>> stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's
>>>> careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an
>>>> Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't
>>>> evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was angering
>>>> editors on WP.
>>>>
>>>> Stan
>>
>> Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and
>> seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.
>>
>> Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on
>> something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if you
>> needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin?
>>
>> Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now!
>> Those
>> marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who
>> make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether.
>>
>> Ease up!
>>
>> Marc Riddell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
>
>
> Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to learn
> aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by
> "experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's all
> good now and I love my career and life, but Wikipedia is important to me
> because it's pretty much the opposite of my past.
>
> People respect my skills and insight here. It's greatly improved my
> confidence level on all fronts. In fact (why yes, it's quite ironic), I'm
> planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and
> masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among other
> things - my job plays a big part in it too).
>
> Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are not
> only non-experts, they're teenagers. My teenage collaborators have been
> extremely active, and have gotten references to things no one else could
> find. They're also knowledgeable, helpful, and kind. When I say teenagers,
> I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and
> insight more than any "expert".
>
>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Nina

Nina,

Long before there were university degrees, there was the human being¹s
ability to reason, and, most importantly to empathize. A formal education
can help you fine tune the first one of these, but no type or amount of this
education can give you the second one. You seem to have it. Nurture it, use
it ­ you¹re already far ahead of the game.

Whatever formal degrees I may have, I consider them as things I¹ve
accumulated on the way to learning something. And, as necessary keys that
provide me access to the most important part ­ the persons I am trying to
reach.

If someone is trying to put you down, they must need you to be there, so
they can be where they are.

Best of luck in your studies and work in Human Services. The field could use
many more like you. You appear to have a particular feel for adolescents. I
don't know what your present work is in now, but perhaps your self is trying
to tell you something about a career change. Consider adolescent psychology;
the teens could use someone like you.

Perspective:  B.S. = Bull.Shit. ­ M.S. = More.Shit. - Ph.D. = Piled high. &
Deep. :-)

Be healthy,

Marc Riddell

>>> "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us
>> and
>>> conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul
>> Kalam
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Nina
> "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and
> conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by Nina Stratton
Nina Stratton wrote:
> I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
> never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
> anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
> all I need and all I will ever need.
>

You're either incredibly naïve, or the best troll I've seen in a long time.

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Alphax (Wikipedia email)
In reply to this post by David Gerard-2
David Gerard wrote:

> On 17/01/07, Delirium <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Indeed I think this is a general feature.  I was a lot more deferent
>> towards experts before I went into academia---once you find out how the
>> sausage is made, and even occasionally get deferred to yourself in an
>> area where you know your word has no business being accepted
>> unquestioningly, it's hard to view it in as idealized a fashion.
>
>
> "I am what passes for an expert in field x. This is a frightening concept."
>
In your case, it's true in TWO fields. Be afraid, be very afraid...

--
Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax
Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
"We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales
Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Sage Ross
In reply to this post by Thomas Dalton
On 1/18/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I think the first scenario would still be a major breakthrough;
> > requiring graduate students to write their literature papers for
> > Wikipedia is a whole different beast from (a few idealistic) graduate
> > students writing on top of their other duties.
>
> Wikipedia is written for the layman, a graduate student's papers are
> written for the expert. Writing for Wikipedia requires different
> skills than the ones graduate students are being tested on with their
> papers, and the skills currently being tested are required, so writing
> for Wikipedia would have to be in addition to, it can't be instead of,
> academic papers.
>

There is huge variation in the way graduate student papers are
written.  It would be relatively easy to assign literature papers
where the for-the-expert material and original analysis strictly
separated from the summary-of-the-literature aspects.  It's true that
the skills emphasized in graduate training are different from the ones
needed to write good Wikipedia articles.  But that's a flaw in
graduate training; they ought to be developing the skills to write for
a general audience.  Keep in mind that I'm only talking about
literature papers, which are intended for developing a feel for what's
been written about a particular topic; these are not academic papers
in the sense of potential publications based on original research
(which graduate students also write plenty of).

-Sage

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Nina Stratton
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Thank you for your very kind words, Marc. I will treasure them in the
grueling toil and beauracracy that is  Higher Education in America.:)

Nina

On 1/18/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> > From: "Nina Stratton" <[hidden email]>
> > Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> > Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:20:23 -0800
> > To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
> >
> > On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: "Nina Stratton" <[hidden email]>
> >>> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[hidden email]>
> >>> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:20:48 -0800
> >>> To: "English Wikipedia" <[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium
> >>>
> >>> +!
> >>>
> >>> On 1/17/07, Stan Shebs <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Phil Sandifer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should
> >>>>> work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts
> >>>>> if he's going to dismiss the experts.
> >>>>>
> >>>> There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP;
> >>>> expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically
> confer
> >>>> diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great
> >>>> knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not
> >>>> less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the
> >>>> stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's
> >>>> careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an
> >>>> Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't
> >>>> evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was
> angering
> >>>> editors on WP.
> >>>>
> >>>> Stan
> >>
> >> Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of,
> and
> >> seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.
> >>
> >> Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on
> >> something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if
> you
> >> needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin?
> >>
> >> Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now!
> >> Those
> >> marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place
> who
> >> make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the
> ether.
> >>
> >> Ease up!
> >>
> >> Marc Riddell
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >>>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to
> learn
> > aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by
> > "experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's
> all
> > good now and I love my career and life, but Wikipedia is important to me
> > because it's pretty much the opposite of my past.
> >
> > People respect my skills and insight here. It's greatly improved my
> > confidence level on all fronts. In fact (why yes, it's quite ironic),
> I'm
> > planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and
> > masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among
> other
> > things - my job plays a big part in it too).
> >
> > Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are
> not
> > only non-experts, they're teenagers. My teenage collaborators have been
> > extremely active, and have gotten references to things no one else could
> > find. They're also knowledgeable, helpful, and kind. When I say
> teenagers,
> > I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and
> > insight more than any "expert".
> >
> >
> >>> Sincerely,
> >>>
> >>> Nina
>
> Nina,
>
> Long before there were university degrees, there was the human being¹s
> ability to reason, and, most importantly to empathize. A formal education
> can help you fine tune the first one of these, but no type or amount of
> this
> education can give you the second one. You seem to have it. Nurture it,
> use
> it ­ you¹re already far ahead of the game.
>
> Whatever formal degrees I may have, I consider them as things I¹ve
> accumulated on the way to learning something. And, as necessary keys that
> provide me access to the most important part ­ the persons I am trying to
> reach.
>
> If someone is trying to put you down, they must need you to be there, so
> they can be where they are.
>
> Best of luck in your studies and work in Human Services. The field could
> use
> many more like you. You appear to have a particular feel for adolescents.
> I
> don't know what your present work is in now, but perhaps your self is
> trying
> to tell you something about a career change. Consider adolescent
> psychology;
> the teens could use someone like you.
>
> Perspective:  B.S. = Bull.Shit. ­ M.S. = More.Shit. - Ph.D. = Piled high.
> &
> Deep. :-)
>
> Be healthy,
>
> Marc Riddell
>
> >>> "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to
> us
> >> and
> >>> conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul
> >> Kalam
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> WikiEN-l mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Nina
> > "Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us
> and
> > conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul
> Kalam
> > _______________________________________________
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>



--
Sincerely,

Nina
"Look at the sky. We are not alone. The whole universe is friendly to us and
conspires only to give the best to those who dream and work." - Abdul Kalam
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Mathias Schindler-2
Mathias Schindler wrote:

>On 1/17/07, Mark Wagner <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Fifth?  I know about Nupedia, Wikipedia, one whose name I can't
>>remember, and Citizendium, but what one am I missing?
>>    
>>
>Encyclopedia of Earth and "Digital Universe Encyclopedia".
>
My memory may be faulty, but wasn't he also have something to do with
the Sifter project?

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by fredbaud
Fred Bauder wrote:

>> The people slogging for tenure will do it? The professors won't
>> delegate it to the grad students? The grad students won't be the
>> people who are already writing for us?
>>
>>If Larry gets tenure-track people to believe it will help them, then it really might be a breakthrough.
>>
>>Charles
>>    
>>
>I think any of us, if asked, should be willing to write recommendations for contributors. Whether they will have traction will depend on how knowledgeable and intelligent the person considering it is.
>
Hmm.  Maybe if ArbCom took on the task their word on recommendations
might be more authoratative. ;-)

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by geni
geni wrote:

>On 1/17/07, Thomas Dalton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>According to Wikipedia (see how easy it is? Why can't the newspapers
>>manage... it's just 3 words... oh well...)
>>    
>>
>Because they have rules against useing wikipedia as a source.
>
So which is worse for them: Using a source you can't acknowledge, or
acknowledging a source that you can't use?

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Stan Shebs-2
Stan Shebs wrote:

>Phil Sandifer wrote:
>  
>
>>[...] If Larry wants an encyclopedia free of its biases, he should  
>>work on one. But he shouldn't call it an encyclopedia run by experts  
>>if he's going to dismiss the experts.
>>    
>>
>There are plenty of experts going at each other with knives on WP;
>expertise is simply a fund of knowledge, and does not magically confer
>diplomatic, communication, or collaboration skills. In fact, great
>knowledge tends to breed arrogance, making conflict more likely, not
>less so. CZ adds real names and attributions to the mix, raising the
>stakes even further by introducing the possibility of effect on one's
>careers. The organizer would need the superior political skills of an
>Ivy League dean to make it all work, but Larry's forum postings don't
>evidence much improvement at diplomacy since the times he was angering
>editors on WP.
>
Perhaps the difference is reflected in the analogy of WP as a bar-fight
beside CZ as genteel sanctioned combat in a professional wrestling ring.
:-)

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Marc Riddell
Marc Riddell wrote:

>Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and
>seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.
>
That assumes that all experts know what they are talking about.  Some
do.  Others have merely been credentialized.  We also have Wikipedians
who are incapable of making that distinction..  I don't even know if a
fear properly encompases the situation; there is also a clear rejection
of deference.

>Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on
>something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if you
>needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin?
>
That's one end of the scale.  I think that most of us are willing to
find some level of working arrangement with experts.  This necessarily
involves a rejection of the argument that a difference of opinion is
decided by the fact that one of the participants is an expert.  We are
not generally going to practice heart surgery or violin playing, but we
may enter into discussions about those topics, and we want the experts
to understand that the opinions of others should not be perfunctorily
dismissed.

>Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now! Those
>marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who
>make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether.
>
True enough, but we can still argue with them.  When they propose
software "improvements" they still need to interact with those of us who
may feel oppressed by improvements.  There was a virtue to keeping
Wikisyntax simple as it used to be.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Thomas Dalton
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
> So which is worse for them: Using a source you can't acknowledge, or
> acknowledging a source that you can't use?

For them? The 2nd one. For everyone else, the first. There is only one
law: don't get caught.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Fastfission
Fastfission wrote:

> The problem is the categorization of disciplines can be a very
>
>controversial issue even if the discipline itself does not come with
>specific and explicit political or cultural agendas, much less tied up
>in questions of identity or the ability of individuals to make
>decisions on account of their cultural heritage.
>
IOW categorization itself can introduce biases and POVs.

>There is absolutely no easy answer to it. The question of where
>ethnic/gender studies (and its variants) fall within the organization
>of knowledge has been something the American academy has been
>periodically battling with for forty years (Peter Novick's _That Noble
>Dream_ has some great accounts of how the discipline of History in the
>US struggled with these issues in the 60s and 70s). The question of
>disciplinary disputes (what sociologists sometimes call "boundary
>work") has existed since before Copernicus (the question of whether
>mathematicians could make statements which impinged on areas of
>philosophy was a big one in his era). Categorization of knowledge was
>one of the most radical aspects of the original Encyclopedie, and some
>scholars (Robert Darnton in particular) have argued that it was in
>categorizing religion in the same tree as black magic (rather than a
>source of revealed truth) that really invoked the ire of the Church
>(rather than the snippy little asides poking fun at the Eucharist).
>
The problem is older than that.  The usual arrangement of the English
translation of Aristotle's works puts "Categories" in the very first place.

>Which is just to say that while I don't think this is necessarily any
>example of systemic racism or sexism on Sanger's part (there are
>legitimate reasons for not considering these fields to be top-level
>categories, one need not attribute such opinions to philosophies of
>prejudice), it is an example of what some of the difficulties with an
>"expert-driven" system will be. The problem is, experts don't even
>agree on very basic things at times, such as whose knowledge counts as
>genuine, such as how knowledge should be organized, such as where a
>discipline stops and ends. No matter what decision is made in these
>sorts of issues, they will alienate entire disciplines of experts.
>
>I think Wikipedia gets around it, paradoxically enough, by not
>pretending to have any expert rule, as well as having a relatively
>democratic categorization system (things can be redundantly
>categorized). If you don't make the assumption that the material is
>heavily mediated by experts, then you don't feel quite as bad if it
>doesn't align with one point of view or the other. Or maybe experts
>just don't pay a lot of attention to issues like this on Wikipedia for
>one reason or another.
>
The premise that "Wikipedia is not paper" may help us on this.  We can
add redundant categories without having to rewrite or re-arrange large
quantities of data.  When a library changes its cataloging system it can
be many years before everything is upgraded.  Some old less important
material is never recatalogued.

>In any case... it will be interesting to see how Sanger works this out
>over time. He really can't afford to alienate the entire humanities
>and if he is perceived as shutting out or, god forbid, segregating
>ethnic/gender studies he will probably end up doing just about that.
>(I'm not saying he's doing that, I'm just talking about how he will be
>perceived.) If he insists on making determinations like this on his
>own (if that is indeed what he has done), he will likely end up
>stepping on a lot of toes.
>
In all fairness didn't the problem lay in his refusal to segregate
ethnic and gender studies from their larger supercategories.  When you
give special status to ethnic studies you bring attention to it.  When
there is systemic bias recognizing that bias is a first step toward
solving the problem, but if you overemphazixe a specific bias there is a
risk that you will generate new biases.  Bias against African-Americans
may be a significant problem in the United States, but other Wikipedians
in other countries may see this as a particularly American problem.  The
ethnic priorities in other countries can be quite different.  If America
is indeed the great melting pot, what indeed is the point of classifying
African-American literature as something separate from plain old
American literature.


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by phoebe ayers-3
phoebe ayers wrote:

>Ah, this is related to my own dream: that someday the accessibility of the
>knowledge resources that you contribute to will be taken into account as an
>important quality. Accessibility is recognized somewhat now in the academy
>for tenure, but only obliquely -- while the very prestigious journals like
>"Nature" and "Science" are also highly-subscribed to, most of the time
>people make tenure based on publications that have only seen the light of
>day in expensive journals and books that have very few holdings and thus
>very few readers.
>
The problem of accessibility is bigger than the price of journals, or
the need for some who want to have their work published need to pay to
have that done.   The high circulation journals that you mention have
their own space limitations about what they can include, so they cannot
enter into any individual science with much depth.  For the user, even
if the cost of a journal can be kept affordable it will only cover one
corner of the subject matter.  He may need to suscribe to a range of
journals.  That brings the costs back up, and can also open storage
problems.  There is an advantage to being connected to a university, and
having access to the pooled resources in their libraries, but libraries
have their funding problems too.  As well, I keep hearing horror stories
about runs of old journals being dumped because they don't have the
place to keep them.  Some of my 19th century bound volumes of
"Scientific American" once belonged to libraries.

The Renaissance Wikipedian who is not associated with a university has
to make do with what he can find.  If all he can find is internet
material it will shape and limit his perceptions.  Fact checking should
be one of our jobs, but doing that effectively depends on having access
to information.

>Sure, this is an encyclopedia, and therefore never going
>to count for original research for tenure (much as writing print
>encyclopedias or textbooks now generally doesn't get you as many tenure
>points) but it would be pretty grand to be able to make the argument that
>because you're contributing to a world-wide freely accessible resource
>you're actually helping thousands more people than you would by publishing
>any other way. If Larry or anyone else can help swing the perception of
>working on Wikipedia/Citizendium/whatever away from "wasting time on the
>Internet" and towards "helping the world learn about my field," that will be
>a good thing indeed.
>
Being on the hunt for tenure is bound to affect the way that one edits.  
If one's institution support's a particular world view he will be
motivated to let that influence the way he contributes; not all of his
fellow editors will share that world view.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by fredbaud
Fred Bauder wrote:

>Experts, to function well on Wikipedia, need to more than just proclaim themselves an expert and regurgitate what they learned in school. Particularly they must be familiar with the literature and be able to cite it. That may be a rare talent, as is excellent teaching, the underlying skill that is involved in writing an introductory textbook, which is what a Wikipedia article is, in part.
>
Both expert and amateur in theory have the same literature available for
citation.  The important skill they learned in kindergarten: connecting
the dots in the right order.

I wish Wikiversity well, but sometimes I wonder if they have grasped
that planning an effective course is more than knowing the subject.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Mark
Delirium wrote:

>Fred Bauder wrote:
>  
>
>>Unless I have gotten the personalities mixed up, Stan is himself an certified expert employed in an academic setting, which is one reason he can make such an incisive comment about Larry.
>>    
>>
>Indeed I think this is a general feature.  I was a lot more deferent
>towards experts before I went into academia---once you find out how the
>sausage is made, and even occasionally get deferred to yourself in an
>area where you know your word has no business being accepted
>unquestioningly, it's hard to view it in as idealized a fashion.  I'd
>say most of the academics I know on Wikipedia are *less* deferent
>towards credentials than most of the non-academics are (with some
>exceptions).
>
I agree in general, but deference to lawyers continues.  "IANAL" appears
far more frequently that any similar phrase for other professions.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by George William Herbert
George Herbert wrote:

>You can see this in how some professors are making Wikipedia articles
>be "the class writing project" for some courses...  Even they consider
>it an environment where both the process and final products are good
>practice for that.
>
Perhaps Phoebe could make this point to the high school librarian that
sought her opinions about Wikipedia.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Nina Stratton
Nina Stratton wrote:

>On 1/17/07, Marc Riddell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Ya know what we need in WP, an Article on Expertaphobia: The fear of, and
>>seeming intimidation by, people who know stuff about things.
>>
>>Someone, I don't recall who it was, wrote that they would never work on
>>something where experts were involved. Really? Who would you go to if you
>>needed heart surgery, or wanted to learn how to play a violin?
>>
>>Don't look now, but you are working with the aid of experts right now!
>>Those
>>marvelous persons behind the scenes of this computerized market place who
>>make all of this possible. Without them we would be typing into the ether.
>>
>Fair enough. As long as my intelligence, experience, and ability to learn
>aren't discounted. I've been made to feel small a lot in my life by
>"experts", simply because I didn't have one or two pieces of paper. It's all
>good now and I love my career and life, but Wikipedia is important to me
>because it's pretty much the opposite of my past.
>
>People respect my skills and insight here. It's greatly improved my
>confidence level on all fronts. In fact (why yes, it's quite ironic), I'm
>planning on going back to school and getting my long-lost bachelor's and
>masters in Human Services as a direct result of my time here (among other
>things - my job plays a big part in it too).
>
>Some of the editors that I've come to respect the most on Wikipedia are not
>only non-experts, they're teenagers. My teenage collaborators have been
>extremely active, and have gotten references to things no one else could
>find. They're also knowledgeable, helpful, and kind. When I say teenagers,
>I'm talking 14-15, not 18-19. They've impressed me in their editing and
>insight more than any "expert".
>
Great!  You and Marc approach the issues from entirely different
perspectives, and are approaching a consensus.  That's what it's all about.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

Ray Saintonge
In reply to this post by Alphax (Wikipedia email)
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:

>Nina Stratton wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm a 40 (almost) year old black woman who dropped out of high school and
>>never finished college. I'm also fundamentally opposed to "experts" running
>>anything I have to do with. I can read, I can write, and I can learn. That's
>>all I need and all I will ever need.
>>    
>>
>You're either incredibly naïve, or the best troll I've seen in a long time.
>
This is offensive.  Assume good faith.  When a person is open about her
personal life that should not be taken as an invitation to find fault.  
Her positive attitude about herself is more important than her critical
view of experts.

Ec


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

geni
In reply to this post by Ray Saintonge
On 1/19/07, Ray Saintonge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I agree in general, but deference to lawyers continues.  "IANAL" appears
> far more frequently that any similar phrase for other professions.
>
> Ec
>

Lawyers can hurt you more than most academics. It is also not normaly
illegal to practice say maths without a lisence. It is illegal to
practice law without a lisence.



--
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

fredbaud
In reply to this post by Sage Ross

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ray Saintonge [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 05:44 PM
>To: 'English Wikipedia'
>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Troubling news on Citizendium

>I agree in general, but deference to lawyers continues.  "IANAL" appears
>far more frequently that any similar phrase for other professions.
>
>Ec

And well it should. Listening to someone give legal advice that doesn't know squat is very painful. A good lawyer knows you have to be familiar with the facts and research the law before you start in with the advice, and even then it is likely to be wrong unless a judge agrees.

Fred



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